Sport Men v Women

[Essexyellows]

So an NZ athlete who has spent their formative years growing up as a man with the benefits of more bone & muscle density and testosterone is now allowed to compete against women. The same athlete has competed as a man until 2013.

Olympics-NZ weightlifter Hubbard to become first transgender athlete to compete at Games

Weightlifter Laurel Hubbard will become the first transgender athlete to compete at the Olympics after being selected by New Zealand for the women's event at the Tokyo Games, a decision set to reignite a debate over inclusion and fairness in sport.

www.reuters.com

From the article.
Save Women's Sport Australasia, a group opposed to transgender women competing in women's sports, said Hubbard's selection was allowed by "flawed policy from the IOC".
"Males do have a performance advantage that is based on their biological sex," the group's co-founder Katherine Deves told Reuters TV. "They outperform us on every single metric - speed, stamina, strength. Picking testosterone is a red herring ... We are forgetting about the anatomy, the faster twitch muscle, the bigger organs."

This has to be horrifically bad for women`s athletics which seemingly has been sacrificed at the "altar of inclusion" by the IOC based on an arbitrary testosterone value.
A woman will have lost her team place to someone with a different physical advantage through being a man.

Probably just me that thinks it`s wrong but I`m sure we can have a reasoned discussion and my understanding might be improved.

 

[MalaysiaYellow]

Minefield
Can of Worms...................................

 

[Scotchegg]

Probably just me that thinks it`s wrong but I`m sure we can have a reasoned discussion and my understanding might be improved.

Like with every other thread that looks at diversity, many will have "reasoned discussions" and a few will remain ignorant and bigoted.

This isn't posted to try to understand the complexities of transgender in general, or how that should relate to their professions (sport or otherwise). This is a thread that will ultimately have comments like "that bird looks like a fella!"

I'm out!

 

[Marked Ox]

I had this discussion elsewhere so I'm out as well.

 

[Wallop]

I'll put my head above the parapet. I fully support trans rights as that particular life journey must be one of the hardest to go through however,........the newspaper articles consistently state that despite having to demonstrate compliance with a maximum testosterone level in order to compete, there is an advantage gained by this athlete in terms of bone density and other physical aspects due to having developed as a man during teenage years. This development can't be 'undone' and so Laurel will have an inherent advantage from having previously been a man. On that basis I don't think she should be allowed to compete. I recognise however it's a very sensitive and complicated subject.

 

[MC Yellow]

Minefield
Can of Worms...................................

Indeed.

In time we will probably have 3 categories for each competition.

 

[Essexyellows]

I'll put my head above the parapet. I fully support trans rights as that particular life journey must be one of the hardest to go through however,........the newspaper articles consistently state that despite having to demonstrate compliance with a maximum testosterone level in order to compete, there is an advantage gained by this athlete in terms of bone density and other physical aspects due to having developed as a man during teenage years. This development can't be 'undone' and so Laurel will have an inherent advantage from having previously been a man. On that basis I don't think she should be allowed to compete. I recognise however it's a very sensitive and complicated subject.

That is exactly where I am.
My difficulty is that Laurel has already competed as a man, grown-up & trained as a man, and gained a huge advantage in so doing.
I completely understand the desire to transition to where Lauren is happier in her own body and that is absolutely fine.
The default follow-on that she can take the Olympic place of a biological woman is the step too far for me.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

 

[Essexyellows]

View attachment 6580

Take the sign away it`ll be fine.

No topic should be excluded from a reasoned discussion, this place should be like the Oxford Union.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Take the sign away it`ll be fine.

No topic should be excluded from a reasoned discussion, this place should be like the Oxford Union.

I’m scared.

 

[ljs]

Indeed.

In time we will probably have 3 categories for each competition.

Only three?

 

[MC Yellow]

Only three?

In fact you are absolutely right… 3 is way too narrow.

Men
Women
Men (now women)
Women (now men)
Non-Binary
Prefer Not to Say
Other

I think that about covers it.

 

[Steve Gilbert]

Interestingly this topic has come up very close to home. The wife is fighting in a white collar boxing match this year and in the fight is a male who is trans. However instead of fighting in the male category he is fighting the female category. A lot of people have pointed out that surely if you want to be a male then you fight in that category?

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Interestingly this topic has come up very close to home. The wife is fighting in a white collar boxing match this year and in the fight is a male who is trans. However instead of fighting in the male category he is fighting the female category. A lot of people have pointed out that surely if you want to be a male then you fight in that category?

A fully biological male is fighting against women?

 

[Essexyellows]

Interestingly this topic has come up very close to home. The wife is fighting in a white collar boxing match this year and in the fight is a male who is trans. However instead of fighting in the male category he is fighting the female category. A lot of people have pointed out that surely if you want to be a male then you fight in that category?

Hold on.....

If the male is trans that kind of means he doesn`t want to be male??

However, they shouldn`t be fighting in the female category..... again it's a massive biological advantage.
Although I do know some female boxers who I wouldn`t fancy taking on!

 

[Steve Gilbert]

Hold on.....

If the male is trans that kind of means he doesn`t want to be male??

However, they shouldn`t be fighting in the female category..... again it's a massive biological advantage.
Although I do know some female boxers who I wouldn`t fancy taking on!

Sorry I may of confused a few here. The male used to be female but wanted to be a male and is now a full trans male yet still fighting in the female category.

 

[MC Yellow]

Sorry I may of confused a few here. The male used to be female but wanted to be a male and is now a full trans male yet still fighting in the female category.

I find this really odd?

If you want to recognise as a male, why then do you want to fight in the female ring?

Looks like a case of wanting your cake and eating it.

 

[m]

I find this really odd?

If you want to recognise as a male, why then do you want to fight in the female ring?

Looks like a case of wanting your cake and eating it.

And punching it.

 

[Steve Gilbert]

I find this really odd?

If you want to recognise as a male, why then do you want to fight in the female ring?

Looks like a case of wanting your cake and eating it.

You and me both. When my wife first told me, the first thing I said was that surely he should be fighting in the men’s category as that is now what he not only identifies as, but is also now classed as a male.

 

[Cass63]

Yep, I’m well out before I upset nearly everyone.