Manager/Coach Des Buckingham

Bitter said:
If true then can we sue them for our money back? Tell them to grow up and grow some b*lls.

If player's are throwing their toys out the pram because they didn't get their own way, then they have no place at Oxford united (or any other club). So we sack Buckingham, what then, six months time players throw their toys out the pram again because they don't like the manager?
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How do we define a player not trying though ? Does quality over ride effort ? So, lets say RR was scoring a few but being lazy the rest of the time are we on his back because although he might have scored, say, 4 in 5 it could have been 7 in 5 with a bit more effort. Take three players off the top of my head who are lazy - Rashford, Berbatov and Martial, I think the fans opinion will be fairly split as to their individual worth in a team. Is it form, is it effort or is it a combination of form and effort. If it's the latter we may as well give the game to Vale now because no Oxford player is boarding the coach.
 
greatunclekip said:
I’m not sure that’s completely true. And I am no fan of the Chuckles believe me.

The crux of the last few games rounding up to Bolton has been a lack of basic coaching on defensive positioning, attacking strategy, and a game plan.

All of that is on the head coach. Fundamentally players don’t know what they are doing. And that eats away at trust.

Take Ruben for example. Player of the year til November, outstanding at Orient. Yes he might have had a bit of a sulk about it not being Luke Williams, but I’m sure if Des came in with a plan and got results, that soon dissipates. Couple the initial disappointment with not having a clue what your role is, your team mates not knowing what their role is, and s**t results, and it’s easy to see how you might get a bit mardy.

Chris Wilder didn’t come in with an assistant and coaching staff, he came in with a plan and a way of playing that everyone knew their role. It’s basic management.

Des absolutely should have been allowed to bring in his own assistant, or, as I advocated at the time, someone like Cotterill should have been brought in (doing a great job at FGR btw) to help bounce ideas off. But ultimately, the manager has to be on the hook for f*****g abysmal tactics and coaching.

Clotet got pelters for the shite he was serving up, yet he was inexperienced too, we didn’t defend the lack of support or blame the board, we wanted him gone. Des is worse. With Clotet there was semblance of a plan, he just brought in shite who couldn’t play it!
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Comparison with Clotet hurts but also rings true. He had a reputation as an exceptional technical coach before joining us too. I disagree that we look under-coached - as with Clotet I think if anything we look over-coached and micro managed. Always trying to implement a theoretical gameplan as though the opposition have no part in things. Most games under Buckingham we've done the same training ground things over and over and over again regardless of how opponents are setup, how they're playing or game state. Players look disempowered, timid and afraid to make mistakes or deviate from the 'plan'.

When a team consistently comes alive only in moments of emotion and chaos (like we do, usually after conceding) there's usually a deeper problem at the root and it's typically a management issue. That applies in the real world as well as football.

Buckingham has been hung out to dry. Wilder was a different type of manager in a totally different different context and with years of dirt under his fingers in league football. Even Manning and Hogg were veterans in comparison. Des could end up a top manager but as things stand it's not working and the execs have to either invest in a wider team to implement a long term plan or look elsewhere.
 
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ThatSlopesATwelfthMan said:
Comparison with Clotet hurts but also rings true. He had a reputation as an exceptional technical coach before joining us too. I disagree that we look under-coached - as with Clotet I think if anything we look over-coached and micro managed. Always trying to implement a theoretical gameplan as though the opposition have no part in things. Most games under Buckingham we've done the same training ground things over and over and over again regardless of how opponents are setup, how they're playing or game state. Players look disempowered, timid and afraid to make mistakes or deviate from the 'plan'.

When a team consistently comes alive only in moments of emotion and chaos (like we do, usually after conceding) there's usually a deeper problem at the root and it's typically a management issue. That applies in the real world as well as football.

Buckingham has been hung out to dry. Wilder was a different type of manager in a totally different different context and with years of dirt under his fingers in league football. Even Manning and Hogg were veterans in comparison. Des could end up a top manager but as things stand it's not working and the execs have to either invest in a wider team to implement a long term plan or look elsewhere.
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The Wilder comment is relevant. I saw his first game (Salisbury?). A really average bunch of players, confused by the mediocre Patterson. Immediate improvement. You could see that every player knew what his job was,was holding position, and was fighting for every ball . I've never got that sense from Buckingham, I'm afraid. Wilder had been in the job for less than one week.
 
dickwalton1964 said:
How do we define a player not trying though ? Does quality over ride effort ? So, lets say RR was scoring a few but being lazy the rest of the time are we on his back because although he might have scored, say, 4 in 5 it could have been 7 in 5 with a bit more effort. Take three players off the top of my head who are lazy - Rashford, Berbatov and Martial, I think the fans opinion will be fairly split as to their individual worth in a team. Is it form, is it effort or is it a combination of form and effort. If it's the latter we may as well give the game to Vale now because no Oxford player is boarding the coach.
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End product is what it is all about. Are we creating enough, are we finishing enough? The answer is a resounding no! Not only that but we are conceeding more too. Whilst I am not pinning everything on MM and RR, they are two particularly pivotal roles that are there to break up opposition attacks and turn them into opportunities for us. Whilst they were pretty effective at that earlier in the season, they have not been for a loooong time now. Earlier in the season MM in particular was everywhere and some of his link up play was top notch . . . now? You could throw a blanket over him for large parts of the game and he is often bypassed - why is that?

I put it down to him being overplayed initially, but now I'm really not at all sure. It's not like he's been playing Tues/Sat for weeks on end recently is it?. Do you think Buckingham is telling him to play that way? - I don't! RR too - how many times does he get into positions for scoring opportunities, comparative to earlier in the season? How many killer passes and defensive line breakers does he make? How many goals has he scored or assisted of late? How often do either of them get back and help out in defence and how often do we see other players isolated and with no outlets as a result? If either were chipping in with positive contributions in any part of the pitch then I really do think we'd be better off than we currently are, but they simply aren't cutting it at present. Why that might be is open to conjecture.

That is not to say that others aren't either and I notice you have identified both Cumming and Brown in that category too. It is a fair shout and particularly for Cumming, he has made a couple of howlers of late. Is this because he's not trying, because he's not very good, because he's under increased pressure, because his confidence is shot or is it may be a combination of several of those factors. Same analysis for Brown - why have his performances dropped off a cliff? Effort?, Ability? Pressure? Confidence? I actually think that Browns performances are pretty directly linked in some part to MM's in that he is not getting the cover nor the outlet that he was earlier in the season from MM. There's more pressure on him and he's making more errors/poor choices as a result (because at the end of the day he's a L1 defender), the result of this is that his confidence is also shot and now the whole cycle seems self-perpetuating until something changes in the line up and the way we're playing. One little snippet I did see from Tuesday night was Brannagan balling Brown out at one point for not coming for the ball (I think it may've been 3 or 4-0 at the time), resulting in Brannagan having to make a rash challenge and give away a free kick about 25 yds from our goal. It's little things like this that show us that players are not doing what they should, or what is expected of them. We are devoid of confidence all over the pitch now and I think some of that is due to a couple of pivotal roles in the team simply not working the way they should.
 
greatunclekip said:
I’m not sure that’s completely true. And I am no fan of the Chuckles believe me.

The crux of the last few games rounding up to Bolton has been a lack of basic coaching on defensive positioning, attacking strategy, and a game plan.

All of that is on the head coach. Fundamentally players don’t know what they are doing. And that eats away at trust.

Take Ruben for example. Player of the year til November, outstanding at Orient. Yes he might have had a bit of a sulk about it not being Luke Williams, but I’m sure if Des came in with a plan and got results, that soon dissipates. Couple the initial disappointment with not having a clue what your role is, your team mates not knowing what their role is, and s**t results, and it’s easy to see how you might get a bit mardy.

Chris Wilder didn’t come in with an assistant and coaching staff, he came in with a plan and a way of playing that everyone knew their role. It’s basic management.

Des absolutely should have been allowed to bring in his own assistant, or, as I advocated at the time, someone like Cotterill should have been brought in (doing a great job at FGR btw) to help bounce ideas off. But ultimately, the manager has to be on the hook for f*****g abysmal tactics and coaching.

Clotet got pelters for the shite he was serving up, yet he was inexperienced too, we didn’t defend the lack of support or blame the board, we wanted him gone. Des is worse. With Clotet there was semblance of a plan, he just brought in shite who couldn’t play it!
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I agree that a finger or two needs to be pointed at Des, but Rodrigues has been a disgrace as he prances around focusing on himself rather than the team. He did it for Craig Short against Orient, so not sure what’s stopping him from at least putting the effort in and doing what’s best for the team. Same goes for McGuane, but he’s been the same virtually every season e.g. has about 5-10 really good games then goes completely off the boil, almost like he’s never played football before.

If they’re both downing tools then I wish they’d f**k off. If I was Des I wouldn’t have there near the team unless the bucked up and started putting the effort in again.
 
My theory is that Buckingham is a 'management by coaching book' appointee. He wants the team to play one way - the way that is in the City Group manual. That's what he has been taught. Whether it is even sensible trying do do that with L1 quality players is debateable - whether it is actually working is certainly not! But he has no real alternative. The players know it isn't working and won't work. That really does not excuse what looked like a lack of effort by some players on Tuesday of course.

We are in a horrible position. The board won't sack Buckingham (financial reasons, egg on faces), I suspect he can't change, the players have lost any respect for him if they had any to start with and he has lost the majority of the support (going by what I hear from around me at games, comments on social media and the polls on here). Maybe Bristol City would like an assistant coach?
 
ZeroTheHero said:
My theory is that Buckingham is a 'management by coaching book' appointee. He wants the team to play one way - the way that is in the City Group manual. That's what he has been taught. Whether it is even sensible trying do do that with L1 quality players is debateable - whether it is actually working is certainly not! But he has no real alternative. The players know it isn't working and won't work. That really does not excuse what looked like a lack of effort by some players on Tuesday of course.

We are in a horrible position. The board won't sack Buckingham (financial reasons, egg on faces), I suspect he can't change, the players have lost any respect for him if they had any to start with and he has lost the majority of the support (going by what I hear from around me at games, comments on social media and the polls on here). Maybe Bristol City would like an assistant coach?
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Des has swallowed a few manuals - the coaching one, the post match interview one .....

I can't subscribe to view that Des is unsackable, there comes a point when every manager is sackable. If we lose 6 of the last 8, which is quite possible, and drift down to about 12th then he wont survive.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
My theory is that Buckingham is a 'management by coaching book' appointee. He wants the team to play one way - the way that is in the City Group manual. That's what he has been taught. Whether it is even sensible trying do do that with L1 quality players is debateable - whether it is actually working is certainly not! But he has no real alternative. The players know it isn't working and won't work. That really does not excuse what looked like a lack of effort by some players on Tuesday of course.

We are in a horrible position. The board won't sack Buckingham (financial reasons, egg on faces), I suspect he can't change, the players have lost any respect for him if they had any to start with and he has lost the majority of the support (going by what I hear from around me at games, comments on social media and the polls on here). Maybe Bristol City would like an assistant coach?
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I wouldn't be so sure about Buckingham being a coaching book CG appointee. That said, if you're right then someone ought to tell him he doesn't work for them anymore and he need to plough his own furrow and develop his own style - he;s not some City Group Android!.

In any case, I'm not sure what the City Group "preach" is so rigid that it cannot be changed and adapted to circumstances as required. It's a framework for sure, but there is plenty of flexibility within it. There has to be, otherwise it would be really easy to counter and overcome! And as we all know, it is not infallable in the first place, though having the best players in the world to implement it kinda helps!

Where he is sorely lacking is his ability to adapt what he knows and the reputation he has earned to the rigours of league one. As others have said, this is where the likes of Manning, Wilder, Robinson and Appleton will have an advantage - real, lived in experience.

All the more baffling then that the Senior Management group at OUFC have not seen fit to protect and insure their hefty investment in Des by giving him the right management support that he clearly needs. It's almost like they don't have the first idea what they're doing when it comes to the footballing side of things . . . .
 
dickwalton1964 said:
I can't subscribe to view that Des is unsackable, there comes a point when every manager is sackable. If we lose 6 of the last 8, which is quite possible, and drift down to about 12th then he wont survive.
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I just think that the club management won't do it any time soon. For purely their own reasons rather than footballing ones.

Even if he lost six of the last eight, there would be a 'mid-table finish, give him the summer to build his own team' narrative. Personally, I think that would be a big mistake on current evidence, but I think it is what will happen.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
I just think that the club management won't do it any time soon. For purely their own reasons rather than footballing ones.

Even if he lost six of the last eight, there would be a 'mid-table finish, give him the summer to build his own team' narrative. Personally, I think that would be a big mistake on current evidence, but I think it is what will happen.
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I think they may act sooner than you think. They are not stupid and know that no players like him for no other reason then he does very little to coach them. The word is very out in the football world and we will struggle to get players if he stays much longer.
 
Sheik djibouti said:
End product is what it is all about. Are we creating enough, are we finishing enough? The answer is a resounding no! Not only that but we are conceeding more too. Whilst I am not pinning everything on MM and RR, they are two particularly pivotal roles that are there to break up opposition attacks and turn them into opportunities for us. Whilst they were pretty effective at that earlier in the season, they have not been for a loooong time now. Earlier in the season MM in particular was everywhere and some of his link up play was top notch . . . now? You could throw a blanket over him for large parts of the game and he is often bypassed - why is that?

I put it down to him being overplayed initially, but now I'm really not at all sure. It's not like he's been playing Tues/Sat for weeks on end recently is it?. Do you think Buckingham is telling him to play that way? - I don't! RR too - how many times does he get into positions for scoring opportunities, comparative to earlier in the season? How many killer passes and defensive line breakers does he make? How many goals has he scored or assisted of late? How often do either of them get back and help out in defence and how often do we see other players isolated and with no outlets as a result? If either were chipping in with positive contributions in any part of the pitch then I really do think we'd be better off than we currently are, but they simply aren't cutting it at present. Why that might be is open to conjecture.

That is not to say that others aren't either and I notice you have identified both Cumming and Brown in that category too. It is a fair shout and particularly for Cumming, he has made a couple of howlers of late. Is this because he's not trying, because he's not very good, because he's under increased pressure, because his confidence is shot or is it may be a combination of several of those factors. Same analysis for Brown - why have his performances dropped off a cliff? Effort?, Ability? Pressure? Confidence? I actually think that Browns performances are pretty directly linked in some part to MM's in that he is not getting the cover nor the outlet that he was earlier in the season from MM. There's more pressure on him and he's making more errors/poor choices as a result (because at the end of the day he's a L1 defender), the result of this is that his confidence is also shot and now the whole cycle seems self-perpetuating until something changes in the line up and the way we're playing. One little snippet I did see from Tuesday night was Brannagan balling Brown out at one point for not coming for the ball (I think it may've been 3 or 4-0 at the time), resulting in Brannagan having to make a rash challenge and give away a free kick about 25 yds from our goal. It's little things like this that show us that players are not doing what they should, or what is expected of them. We are devoid of confidence all over the pitch now and I think some of that is due to a couple of pivotal roles in the team simply not working the way they should.
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With RR - I'm not sure I subscribe to a lack of effort. He was still getting about the pitch on Tuesday, still ranting at the ref and throwing himself about - he was even back in his own penalty area (I wouldn't say he was helping out the defense though, because him deciding to fanny about rather than clear the ****ing ball led directly to the third goal). But he's not finding the space he was, his passing is not at the quality it was and his decision making under any form of press is ropey in the extreme. Some of that is coaching, and him not seeming to 100% know his role.....but some of it is just a player bang out of form who has let it muddle his thinking. Needs a rest for at least a couple of games.....and thankfully we have multiple players who can come in and play at #10 (Bodin, Goodrham hopefully, even Henry).

MM is a different kettle of fish because we've seen this over and over from him. In each of the past four seasons, we've seen 1-2 months from him where he looks like the best player in the division. Getting on the ball, shrugging off defenders, driving forwards. But then he reverts back to this timid, shell of that player whose first instinct under any form of pressure is always to pass the ball backwards. I know back in September, people were panicking about his contract coming to an end and wanting to put a massive deal in front of him, and there was a big sigh of relief when it was confirmed that we had another year's option. Now I'm not even sure that we should be exercising it.....for the presumably decent wage we're paying him, could we not get someone more consistent over the course of the season? Watching Josh Sheehan play on Tuesday was a reminder of what we should be expecting from a holding midfielder - and we haven't seen that from MM for the best part of six months.
The problem in the short term in CM is if not him, who else? Matete apparently has a knock, and was rubbish anyway the three games he started. McEachran has disappointed most of the season. If he's fit, maybe give Oisin Smyth a try? It's supposed to be his best position, and he at least has some physical presence.

Then Goodwin has to start on Saturday if he's got 60 minutes in him. I thought he looked our least worst player at Bolton (although helped by their man mountain being subbed off) and we need to start getting him some minutes, and seeing what he's got about him. I'm neutral as to whether you bench Harris, or stick him out wide and bench Murphy.
 
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