International News Climate Change 🌍

The growth in available models is 48 to 134 between 2020 and next year.

The cost of a new model is coming down every year as Tesla faces more competition from the mainstream.

Battery range is increasing. The number of available models that can go more than 300miles tripled last year. This year the Chinese are releasing a model that can go over 600 miles.

There are over 40000 charge points in the uk at over 15000 locations so more ubiquitous than a petrol station. And guess what? There’ll be 300000 by 2030.

Many of those charging points are free, but it rarely costs more than 10 gbp to charge an EV

Within the next 3 years charging time will decrease rapidly to 90% in under 10 minutes.

EV sales were up 62% last year whilst overall auto sales were down 8%. In Norway almost 90% of new car sales were electric.

It’s not a con or a forced cost as hydrocarbon vehicles are being phased out over the next decade. And you’re not obliged to buy one until you decide to replace your current vehicle. So that’s a complete misnoma and makes no logical sense.

I don’t know if you’re a climate change scientist or specialist in the car industry, oil snd gas industry or alternative energy industry but they predominantly are all on the same page.
 
You don’t need a “charging point” at home - you can use an adaptor and a regular plug.

The embodied energy in building an EV is equivalent to about 8-10000 miles worth of fuel, so after 2 years all the energy savings are real.

Batteries are improving constantly and already have minimal degradation after 10 years (with >10 year old tech).

When batteries from EVs are replaced, it is because their energy delivery rate is not fast enough to power the car, but they are still ideal for passive storage (eg home batteries).

Synthetic fuels are a possibility, but they have to be synthesised from something. Carbon based ones require plant material, but we are already in danger of not being able to feed humans, so wasting arable terrain on massive fuel fields is not ideal. Green hydrogen is an option that is being heavily invested in, using solar to crack water. Hydrogen storage, safety (and leakage) remain a problem.

My 2pporth: we need to work out how to power planes and ships - these might be ideal for hydrogen. With cars it is more about convenience. Plugging in the car at home is ridiculously convenient if you have off street and ridiculously inconvenient if you don’t. What we really need is some dirt cheap little cars that can do the 75% of driving that is local (shopping, school runs, sport) that are all electric.
 
You don’t need a “charging point” at home - you can use an adaptor and a regular plug.

The embodied energy in building an EV is equivalent to about 8-10000 miles worth of fuel, so after 2 years all the energy savings are real.

Batteries are improving constantly and already have minimal degradation after 10 years (with >10 year old tech).

When batteries from EVs are replaced, it is because their energy delivery rate is not fast enough to power the car, but they are still ideal for passive storage (eg home batteries).

Synthetic fuels are a possibility, but they have to be synthesised from something. Carbon based ones require plant material, but we are already in danger of not being able to feed humans, so wasting arable terrain on massive fuel fields is not ideal. Green hydrogen is an option that is being heavily invested in, using solar to crack water. Hydrogen storage, safety (and leakage) remain a problem.

My 2pporth: we need to work out how to power planes and ships - these might be ideal for hydrogen. With cars it is more about convenience. Plugging in the car at home is ridiculously convenient if you have off street and ridiculously inconvenient if you don’t. What we really need is some dirt cheap little cars that can do the 75% of driving that is local (shopping, school runs, sport) that are all electric.

Plane biofuel is already out there it’s now about rolling it out there and convincing the aviation industry to make the leap on a bigger scale. United, Virgin, Lufthansa, British Airways etc are all using it. It’s cheaper than current oil prices too but it’s about updating refineries globally to be able to produce it en masse. Algae, waste carbon, corn based ethanol can all be used. Only argument against is when using corn you’re using field that could be used to help feed a growing human population
 
Hmmm, who to believe... Someone who works in the industry and has first hand knowledge of where things are heading, or a bloke on the Internet 🤔
 
Hmmm, who to believe... Someone who works in the industry and has first hand knowledge of where things are heading, or a bloke on the Internet 🤔
Think of me when you're signing up to a £400 per month, 5 year payment plan for your new electric car in 10 years (hopefully you're not poor. If you're poor, then your ability to travel privately will disappear).

Think of me again in 20 years when your car has done 50,000 miles and the battery is "broken beyond repair" and you need either i) a new car for £400 per month, or ii) a new battery costing more than you earn in 6 months.

The science is correct. However, the car industry will be sure to prevent you from using your car in a way that is economically reasonable or environmentally beneficial.
 
Think of me when you're signing up to a £400 per month, 5 year payment plan for your new electric car in 10 years (hopefully you're not poor. If you're poor, then your ability to travel privately will disappear).

Think of me again in 20 years when your car has done 50,000 miles and the battery is "broken beyond repair" and you need either i) a new car for £400 per month, or ii) a new battery costing more than you earn in 6 months.

The science is correct. However, the car industry will be sure to prevent you from using your car in a way that is economically reasonable or environmentally beneficial.
God forbid the government introduce legislation (sold to the gullible as red tape, bureaucracy, interference, reduction of freedoms etc) that trys to works for the people and the environment even if it curtails cynical product design aims purely to increase a company's profits.
 
Think of me when you're signing up to a £400 per month, 5 year payment plan for your new electric car in 10 years (hopefully you're not poor. If you're poor, then your ability to travel privately will disappear).

Think of me again in 20 years when your car has done 50,000 miles and the battery is "broken beyond repair" and you need either i) a new car for £400 per month, or ii) a new battery costing more than you earn in 6 months.

The science is correct. However, the car industry will be sure to prevent you from using your car in a way that is economically reasonable or environmentally beneficial.

At risk of sounding a little argumentative …..where are you deriving your figures and data from?
 
At risk of sounding a little argumentative …..where are you deriving your figures and data from?
When it comes to guessing how the tech industry will develop over the coming decades (using current knowledge of the present day car finance market and the tech market, and the movement towards microtransactions and leasing generally) you've got to take a punt.

I'd be really interested to know if you do have any forecasting figures and data for:

1. Projected cost of electric cars and batteries in 10-20 year range (beyond "it will go down because mass production - see Apple and Microsoft pricing over last 25 years) .

2. Any evidence that in-built obselesence will (or will not) be part of electric car design.

You clearly know more about this sector than I do. I'm just skeptical that the car industry, based on its record over the last 100 years, has any intention whatsoever to protect the environment.

I would be interested to know if you genuinely do trust the industry to deliver a dependable, long lasting and sustainable future for us whilst simultaneously producing some 3 billion, 2 ton boxes of plastic, rubber and precious metals.
 
God forbid the government introduce legislation (sold to the gullible as red tape, bureaucracy, interference, reduction of freedoms etc) that trys to works for the people and the environment even if it curtails cynical product design aims purely to increase a company's profits.
What makes you think the government will do that? We're literally only just getting to the point where right to repair is entering the public consciousness and even that is being worked around by Apple.

You seem to have a very pessimistic view of the power of government to properly govern for us. Surely you don't actually think, against the weight of car industry lobbying and handouts /threats, that we will be properly protected against price gouging from these corporate giants??

"Your car has not received its remote 6 month service. A demobilised has been activated. Please pay £50 using Google Wallet to unlock your car for use. Please note that from February 2026, in line with government legislation, Volvo will be moving to a monthly service plan. Secure your annual service plan now for just £500".
 
I'd be really interested to know if you do have any forecasting figures and data for:

1. Projected cost of electric cars and batteries in 10-20 year range (beyond "it will go down because mass production - see Apple and Microsoft pricing over last 25 years) .

2. Any evidence that in-built obselesence will (or will not) be part of electric car design.

I think if you believe that it won’t work you should be exposing in more detail how you’ve forecast it won’t. From the oil and gas perspective, and the car industry perspective, it needs to be achievable , consumable and affordable or they won’t be in business. It’s a massive exercise beyond what the average Joe in the street understands. But it’s happening.

What makes no sense is the windfall tax until 2030. Nobody else has the expertise and infrastructure to roll out the energy transition but without capital oil snd gas can’t invest in it. Oil and gas majors are currently taxed at 70% of profits in the UK. The bbc are very good at making headlines out of profits without being transparent about that.

the culture and mindset is very much focused on achieving a transition to alternative energy in the European majors, and likelihood is that it’ll be far cheaper longer term because extracting hydrocarbons safely from the seabed is far trickier and costlier than letting the sun warm up some heat plates on top of your house to power your car.

To your points

1. Prices are expected to reduce to parity with current cars over the next 3-7 years depending on which study you look at. If it doesn’t people won’t buy them. In a couple years you’ll start seeing more second hand EV hit the market too which will make it feel more accessible.


2. The car industry is very competitive. If they wanted in built obsolescence they could do that now in other ways. Their reputations would precede them and no doubt consumers would vote with their feet.
 
Ford are due to announce a new “budget” BEV in March.
Built in Cologne,Germany,on the VW MEB platform.
 
Old cars are here to stay: We were promised cheaper motoring but electric cars cost more to charge than petrol
by James Mills
10 January 2023
4 min read

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Leave comment
Old cars are here to stay: We were promised cheaper motoring but electric cars cost more to charge than petrol
Photo: Vauxhall/Octopus
We’d laugh if it weren’t so distressing. Charging electric cars when out and about is now more expensive than fuelling a petrol equivalent. Or at least, that’s what the RAC reckons.
Most ‘car enthusiasts’ saw this coming. Yet successive governments have shown they know next to nothing about motoring and motorists. Actually, that’s not true – they know how to take our money and laugh all the way to the bank.
It’s not that long ago that Britain’s drivers were being led by Labour’s dangled carrot of lower tax for diesel cars, as they tried to get more of us out of petrol-burning motors and into diesel models, citing lower CO2 emissions.
How much is your car to insure? Find out in four easy steps.
Get a quote

Nobody listened to those cautioning that the emissions from diesel-burning vehicles were particularly nasty, doing no good at all for those breathing them in.
Around the same time that Tony Blair came to power, Euro NCAP was getting into its stride. Cars needed to be safer, it said. Few would have disagreed at the time. But today? Few would argue they’re dramatically safer – yet the ongoing need for myriad costly active driving aids to score marketing-worthy Euro NCAP test results means affordable cars are as good as a thing of the past.
That’s not the only thing putting the knife into affordable cars, though. Emissions legislation calls for all manner of costly engineering solutions to ensure cars are compliant, further eradicating whatever precious margin was left in a small, inexpensive car.
Then came the switch to electric cars. Get on with it, Johnson’s government told car makers, in November, 2020: you’ve got until 2030 to comply. (Less than two years later, they ended the plug-in grant for new electric cars.)
Trouble is – conveniently ignoring their well-to-wheels emissions for a moment and the sourcing of precious metals for batteries, in the future – electric cars are expensive.
Honda e
Photo: Honda
Take one of the smallest, vaguely practical new electric cars you can buy today, the Honda E. It costs £37,000. An electric Vauxhall Corsa is £32,000. But finance, the car companies will retort. But debt, most working families will reply, with more than a hint of exasperation.
We’re also continually reminded that charging at home is affordable. But conveniently, the cost of having an electric car charging point installed – the best part of £1000, before the installation grant – is glossed over. (I speak from bitter experience.)
And now comes today’s RAC report on the cost of using a public rapid charger. For those who have steered clear of the electric car thing, a rapid charger (in this instance, at least) is classed as one capable of delivering more than 100kW of juice, which is what you hope to find when out and about and in need of a quick pitstop to see you on your way again.
The average price paid by Britain’s drivers is said to be 74.79p per kilowatt hour. That is an increase of 47 per cent from the May, 2022 average of 50.97p.
Drivers relying on these chargers pay an average of £38.29 today for an 80 per cent charge, £20.42 more than those charging at home.
It’s equivalent to 20 pence per mile for the cost of electricity. A petrol car that achieves 40 miles to the gallon would cost 17 pence per mile, a diesel doing the same economy 20 pence per mile.
Let that sink it. Electric cars were promised to be cheaper to run, but that hasn’t materialised. And the Energy Savings Trust anticipates high energy prices into 2024. It could be longer, given global events.
The RAC says the government should cut VAT on electricity bought at public charging stations, from 20 per cent to 5 per cent, the same as we pay on our domestic energy rate. It would be a welcome contribution during a cost of living crisis.
Unfortunately, it’s the tip of the iceberg. Maddening queues at public charging points – even when they’re all working – are a thing now, because the uptake of electric cars is outpacing the infrastructure. The government has pledged to install 100 public chargers a month across the UK, yet only 16 were switched on in December, while the weighting towards London and the south is stark if you live elsewhere in the country.
Not enough new electric car charging points are being built
The government is falling short of its target to install 100 electric vehicle charging points a month.
Meanwhile, car makers are changing their business models. They know the days of huge-selling, affordable cars are coming to an end, so by and large their efforts are focussed on shifting (or returning) upmarket, where you make fewer, more expensive cars with healthy margins baked in from the beginning.
A headline from America’s influential political news site, The Hill, says it all: ‘New cars are for richer people: How the auto industry capitalized on pandemic’. The problem for car makers is the same problem facing many other industries: the global supply chain pinch-point for the chips that power everything from our phones to cars, PlayStations to Patriot missiles.
In the US, since the start of the pandemic, new car prices has risen by 20 per cent, outpacing even inflation at 12 per cent. The leaders of GM and Ford, historically builders of cars for the people, say that trend is here to stay: the days of pile ‘em high and sell ‘em cheap are behind us.
So you know what to do. Either put your hand in your pocket, buy an expensive electric car and face the prospect that it could cost more to run than a petrol car, maybe even a frugal diesel too, or join one of the many making do, and making their old car last longer.
Check out the Hagerty Media homepage for daily news, features, interviews and buying guides, or better still, bookmark it.
 
Old cars are here to stay: We were promised cheaper motoring but electric cars cost more to charge than petrol
by James Mills
10 January 2023
4 min read

Share

Leave comment
Old cars are here to stay: We were promised cheaper motoring but electric cars cost more to charge than petrol
Photo: Vauxhall/Octopus
We’d laugh if it weren’t so distressing. Charging electric cars when out and about is now more expensive than fuelling a petrol equivalent. Or at least, that’s what the RAC reckons.
Most ‘car enthusiasts’ saw this coming. Yet successive governments have shown they know next to nothing about motoring and motorists. Actually, that’s not true – they know how to take our money and laugh all the way to the bank.
It’s not that long ago that Britain’s drivers were being led by Labour’s dangled carrot of lower tax for diesel cars, as they tried to get more of us out of petrol-burning motors and into diesel models, citing lower CO2 emissions.
How much is your car to insure? Find out in four easy steps.
Get a quote

Nobody listened to those cautioning that the emissions from diesel-burning vehicles were particularly nasty, doing no good at all for those breathing them in.
Around the same time that Tony Blair came to power, Euro NCAP was getting into its stride. Cars needed to be safer, it said. Few would have disagreed at the time. But today? Few would argue they’re dramatically safer – yet the ongoing need for myriad costly active driving aids to score marketing-worthy Euro NCAP test results means affordable cars are as good as a thing of the past.
That’s not the only thing putting the knife into affordable cars, though. Emissions legislation calls for all manner of costly engineering solutions to ensure cars are compliant, further eradicating whatever precious margin was left in a small, inexpensive car.
Then came the switch to electric cars. Get on with it, Johnson’s government told car makers, in November, 2020: you’ve got until 2030 to comply. (Less than two years later, they ended the plug-in grant for new electric cars.)
Trouble is – conveniently ignoring their well-to-wheels emissions for a moment and the sourcing of precious metals for batteries, in the future – electric cars are expensive.
Honda e
Photo: Honda
Take one of the smallest, vaguely practical new electric cars you can buy today, the Honda E. It costs £37,000. An electric Vauxhall Corsa is £32,000. But finance, the car companies will retort. But debt, most working families will reply, with more than a hint of exasperation.
We’re also continually reminded that charging at home is affordable. But conveniently, the cost of having an electric car charging point installed – the best part of £1000, before the installation grant – is glossed over. (I speak from bitter experience.)
And now comes today’s RAC report on the cost of using a public rapid charger. For those who have steered clear of the electric car thing, a rapid charger (in this instance, at least) is classed as one capable of delivering more than 100kW of juice, which is what you hope to find when out and about and in need of a quick pitstop to see you on your way again.
The average price paid by Britain’s drivers is said to be 74.79p per kilowatt hour. That is an increase of 47 per cent from the May, 2022 average of 50.97p.
Drivers relying on these chargers pay an average of £38.29 today for an 80 per cent charge, £20.42 more than those charging at home.
It’s equivalent to 20 pence per mile for the cost of electricity. A petrol car that achieves 40 miles to the gallon would cost 17 pence per mile, a diesel doing the same economy 20 pence per mile.
Let that sink it. Electric cars were promised to be cheaper to run, but that hasn’t materialised. And the Energy Savings Trust anticipates high energy prices into 2024. It could be longer, given global events.
The RAC says the government should cut VAT on electricity bought at public charging stations, from 20 per cent to 5 per cent, the same as we pay on our domestic energy rate. It would be a welcome contribution during a cost of living crisis.
Unfortunately, it’s the tip of the iceberg. Maddening queues at public charging points – even when they’re all working – are a thing now, because the uptake of electric cars is outpacing the infrastructure. The government has pledged to install 100 public chargers a month across the UK, yet only 16 were switched on in December, while the weighting towards London and the south is stark if you live elsewhere in the country.
Not enough new electric car charging points are being built
The government is falling short of its target to install 100 electric vehicle charging points a month.
Meanwhile, car makers are changing their business models. They know the days of huge-selling, affordable cars are coming to an end, so by and large their efforts are focussed on shifting (or returning) upmarket, where you make fewer, more expensive cars with healthy margins baked in from the beginning.
A headline from America’s influential political news site, The Hill, says it all: ‘New cars are for richer people: How the auto industry capitalized on pandemic’. The problem for car makers is the same problem facing many other industries: the global supply chain pinch-point for the chips that power everything from our phones to cars, PlayStations to Patriot missiles.
In the US, since the start of the pandemic, new car prices has risen by 20 per cent, outpacing even inflation at 12 per cent. The leaders of GM and Ford, historically builders of cars for the people, say that trend is here to stay: the days of pile ‘em high and sell ‘em cheap are behind us.
So you know what to do. Either put your hand in your pocket, buy an expensive electric car and face the prospect that it could cost more to run than a petrol car, maybe even a frugal diesel too, or join one of the many making do, and making their old car last longer.
Check out the Hagerty Media homepage for daily news, features, interviews and buying guides, or better still, bookmark it.
Daily Mail?
 
I think if you believe that it won’t work you should be exposing in more detail how you’ve forecast it won’t. From the oil and gas perspective, and the car industry perspective, it needs to be achievable , consumable and affordable or they won’t be in business. It’s a massive exercise beyond what the average Joe in the street understands. But it’s happening.

What makes no sense is the windfall tax until 2030. Nobody else has the expertise and infrastructure to roll out the energy transition but without capital oil snd gas can’t invest in it. Oil and gas majors are currently taxed at 70% of profits in the UK. The bbc are very good at making headlines out of profits without being transparent about that.

the culture and mindset is very much focused on achieving a transition to alternative energy in the European majors, and likelihood is that it’ll be far cheaper longer term because extracting hydrocarbons safely from the seabed is far trickier and costlier than letting the sun warm up some heat plates on top of your house to power your car.

To your points

1. Prices are expected to reduce to parity with current cars over the next 3-7 years depending on which study you look at. If it doesn’t people won’t buy them. In a couple years you’ll start seeing more second hand EV hit the market too which will make it feel more accessible.


2. The car industry is very competitive. If they wanted in built obsolescence they could do that now in other ways. Their reputations would precede them and no doubt consumers would vote with their feet.
I think people are allowed to have theories and fears about how the future will look without a bibliography of sources behind their every opinion!!

The car industry is already building in obselesence to their products (plastic being swapped for metal for many replacement components as documented within the CarWizard YouTube channel and others) but consumers have an inherent expectation within ICE cars that there will be maintenance and consumable replacement options which underpins our whole understanding of what a car is.

This might be too abstract, but by making cars a tech product and not a mechanical product, car companies will be able to treat us like tech consumers. This breaks the psychology which previously surrounded the car, it also breaks the historical precedent for maintenance expectations and gives the industry the opportunity to feed people a "new reality" where your car is like your phone. Lease it. Refinance it. Replace it every few years. Microtransactions. Adverts as part of the experience as a given. Batteries not replaceable or uneconomical to replace (JUST like an iPhone).

It's hard to believe the car industry has any ounce of human interest here. It will do all it can to maximise profitability when the switchover takes place. It won't just be making cars with batteries that you can work on and maintain. Maintenance is a 20th century concept.
 
Not enough new electric car charging points are being built
The government is falling short of its target to install 100 electric vehicle charging points a month.
As confirmed on t'wireless today. Shocking shortfall in infrastructure expansion when compared to the number of new EV cars being bought.

Listen from 26 mins 35 sec 🙆‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️


 
I think people are allowed to have theories and fears about how the future will look without a bibliography of sources behind their every opinion!!

The car industry is already building in obselesence to their products (plastic being swapped for metal for many replacement components as documented within the CarWizard YouTube channel and others) but consumers have an inherent expectation within ICE cars that there will be maintenance and consumable replacement options which underpins our whole understanding of what a car is.

This might be too abstract, but by making cars a tech product and not a mechanical product, car companies will be able to treat us like tech consumers. This breaks the psychology which previously surrounded the car, it also breaks the historical precedent for maintenance expectations and gives the industry the opportunity to feed people a "new reality" where your car is like your phone. Lease it. Refinance it. Replace it every few years. Microtransactions. Adverts as part of the experience as a given. Batteries not replaceable or uneconomical to replace (JUST like an iPhone).

It's hard to believe the car industry has any ounce of human interest here. It will do all it can to maximise profitability when the switchover takes place. It won't just be making cars with batteries that you can work on and maintain. Maintenance is a 20th century concept.
Probably just as well, seeing as if you touch the wrong bit, there's enough charge in an EV battery to kill you. Maybe some things are best left to qualified professionals.

Just ask the End of Life Vehicle dismantling sector (and yes they do dismantle EV's)!

I had the misfortune to breakdown and have to be relayed by the AA a couple of years back (petrol car, fucked alternator and lost all power in the outside lane of the M27 . . . nice!). Anyway, the breakdown chap was telling me all about picking up broken down EVs and the fact that there is not really a great deal they can work on or fix at the roadside, so back to the dealership it goes. That said, this is exactly what they had to do with my petrol car to get it sorted.

Maybe car ownership per se is an outmoded concept except for the fanatic and most people will be happy with lease/hire agreements going forward...and just you wait till driverless cars are on the scene. They will be come little more than transportation devices, which was arguably the reason for the car in the first place. It's only the manufactuers who suckered people into having a love affair with the car...and that certainly wasn't out of human interest either!
 
Driverless cars require well maintained roads, with clear highway lane and junction markings and clearly signposted .
None of those are coming to the UK anytime soon and most definitely not Oxfordshire .
 
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