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RyanioBirdio said:
Some of the thickest people I’ve ever encountered have passed the Bar.
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Oddly enough, at work I'm dealing an indie recording artist from the late 70s/early 80s who is now a leading human rights barrister. It couldn't be harder work explaining the most basic of things relating to her former line of work.
 
bashamwonderland said:
Fascism is really about dictatorship, so could apply to right or left. Stalin and Hitler were both racial fascists, it just so happens that Stalin was also a "communist" (in name only) at the same time.

Fascist has definitely been commandeered by the left to describe the right, when arguably there have been more fascist "left" dictators than fascist "right" dictators, in history. Most of them Soviets, mind you.
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That might be your definition, but it's not necessary the generally accepted one. Also emphasizing the challenges around the word.

The Oxford dictionary, for example, defines it as:

1. an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. 2 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. The term fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of ...fascist n. fascistic adj.from Italian fascismo, from fascio 'bundle, political group,' from Latin fascis 'bundle.'
 
Big Ron said:
Oddly enough, I'm dealing with him as well! That's even harder work, but for very different reasons.
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I can imagine him being a right pain in the a**e to deal with, like the music but he does come across as someone who would be hard work.
 
tonyw said:
That might be your definition, but it's not necessary the generally accepted one. Also emphasizing the challenges around the word.

The Oxford dictionary, for example, defines it as:

1. an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. 2 (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. The term fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing nationalist regime of ...fascist n. fascistic adj.from Italian fascismo, from fascio 'bundle, political group,' from Latin fascis 'bundle.'
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It isn't necessarily "my" definition - see the Encyclopedia Britannica definition, the idea of "red fascism" from post-war US culture and the debate amongst political philosophers over the last 80 years.

Using the definition you provided, definition #2 would also appear to apply to many of the so-called "left wing" dictatorships of the 20th century.

So Stalin for example gives the perfect example of a "fascist", in that he had an authoritarian and intolerant style of practice. That definition continues to apply to him and many other "left-wing" dictators, given the non-exclusive list at definition #2.

So to link it back to a point, the argument would be that the word "fascist" is a shock-factor word used to describe the right when it would equally apply in a historical sense to both extreme sides of the political spectrum.

I don't really think I'm arguing for either side here, just engaging with something I find particularly interesting.
 
SteMerritt said:
:ROFLMAO: He said 'her', so I'm going to guess Pauline Black (from The Selecter)
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I'm going to be incredibly indiscreet - it's somebody less well known who was a member of a band called the Au Pairs. One great single 'It's Obvious' and an album that stands the test of time, 'Playing With A Different Sex'. Not really one for those under 60!

In my brief experience, Pauline Black is a delight!
 
bashamwonderland said:
So Stalin for example gives the perfect example of a "fascist", in that he had an authoritarian and intolerant style of practice. That definition continues to apply to him and many other "left-wing" dictators, given the non-exclusive list at definition #2.
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So I am nowhere near knowledgeable or competent enough as a historian to wade into the 'Stalin was a fascist' argument! I just know that it's still an active and vibrant conversation still between those that are, and that there is not a broad consensus on the topic......

......which I guess gets us back to the original point, which is that fascism is a challenging word that means different things to different people, and we really need a new word for lefties to sling at those on the right that they don't like, like Trump and Farage.

I saw Trump described the other day as not a fascist but an illiberal populist. Which actually sounds just about right.....it's just a bit of a mouthful.
 
tonyw said:
So I am nowhere near knowledgeable or competent enough as a historian to wade into the 'Stalin was a fascist' argument! I just know that it's still an active and vibrant conversation still between those that are, and that there is not a broad consensus on the topic......

......which I guess gets us back to the original point, which is that fascism is a challenging word that means different things to different people, and we really need a new word for lefties to sling at those on the right that they don't like, like Trump and Farage.

I saw Trump described the other day as not a fascist but an illiberal populist. Which actually sounds just about right.....it's just a bit of a mouthful.
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Well populist on its own is used quite frequently, especially when referring to the Brazilian Premier.
 
SteMerritt said:
Well populist on its own is used quite frequently, especially when referring to the Brazilian Premier.
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Current or previous Brazilian Premier?

The current Argentinian leader however..... he's most definitely a populist...and definitely a right wing libertarian.

Will he turn out to be a fascist? Possibly, but that will probably depend on how authoritarian his regime becomes. As things stand, he is pretty laissez-faire on drug policy, firearms, prostitution, same-sex marriage, sexual preference, and gender identity, while opposing abortion and euthanasia.

He'd also undoubtedly love Trump to get back into power in the US.

So fascism in the traditional meaning of the word does not really cover it (whereas it probably does for the likes of Putin), but that doesn't mean that the current crop of right wing populists aren't equally abhorrent or dangerous for democracy and the rule of law, while many of them pretend they are protecting it.
 
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Sheik djibouti said:
Current or previous Brazilian Premier?

The current Argentinian leader however..... he's most definitely a populist...and definitely a right wing libertarian.

Will he turn out to be a fascist? Possibly, but that will probably depend on how authoritarian his regime becomes. As things stand, he is pretty laissez-faire on drug policy, firearms, prostitution, same-sex marriage, sexual preference, and gender identity, while opposing abortion and euthanasia.

He'd also undoubtedly love Trump to get back into power in the US.

So fascism in the traditional meaning of the word does not really cover it (whereas it probably does for the likes of Putin), but that doesn't mean that the current crop of right wing populists aren't equally abhorrent or dangerous for democracy and the rule of law, while many of them pretend they are protecting it.
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Sorry, previous. Bolsonaro.
 
Big Ron said:
I'm going to be incredibly indiscreet - it's somebody less well known who was a member of a band called the Au Pairs. One great single 'It's Obvious' and an album that stands the test of time, 'Playing With A Different Sex'. Not really one for those under 60!

In my brief experience, Pauline Black is a delight!
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Has to be LW then as she`s listed on the Bar pages - which is a bit of a career change.
 
bashamwonderland said:
Fascism is really about dictatorship, so could apply to right or left. Stalin and Hitler were both racial fascists, it just so happens that Stalin was also a "communist" (in name only) at the same time.

Fascist has definitely been commandeered by the left to describe the right, when arguably there have been more fascist "left" dictators than fascist "right" dictators, in history. Most of them Soviets, mind you.
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The Nazis called themselves socialists, and went with a red flag so that they would look less like fascists, and more like they were helping the nation they started with a socialist agenda to get the country on board.

I think the reality of what the word means depends on the actions. So for example with Trump going after Antifa and having groups like proud boys, oath keepers nsc, no white guilt the three percenters on side makes him seem to people like me as a fascist, as he seemed to deliberately appeal to neo Nazis.

He’s building walls to keep the immigrants out ( ironic for an immigrant nation) he tried to suggest that an election was rigged and he made a speech to a lot of these far right groups to go up to the hill and tell them not to ratify the election result.

It has been suggested that he had a conversation the night before with Roger Stone to ask what was going to happen the next day…..
The guy literally tried to overthrow a government with the backing of a lot of far right groups.

This is the guy who suggested to the British government that he wanted Farage in as the UK ambassador. Farage was keen to work in his government. Farage campaigned for the bloke.

However If I say the guy is a fascist I’m just some weird lefty that doesn’t know what a fascist is, or that the word fascist is too strong because he doesn’t quite have the trousers yet.
 
Marston Road yellow said:
The Nazis called themselves socialists, and went with a red flag so that they would look less like fascists, and more like they were helping the nation they started with a socialist agenda to get the country on board.

I think the reality of what the word means depends on the actions. So for example with Trump going after Antifa and having groups like proud boys, oath keepers nsc, no white guilt the three percenters on side makes him seem to people like me as a fascist, as he seemed to deliberately appeal to neo Nazis.

He’s building walls to keep the immigrants out ( ironic for an immigrant nation) he tried to suggest that an election was rigged and he made a speech to a lot of these far right groups to go up to the hill and tell them not to ratify the election result.

It has been suggested that he had a conversation the night before with Roger Stone to ask what was going to happen the next day…..
The guy literally tried to overthrow a government with the backing of a lot of far right groups.

This is the guy who suggested to the British government that he wanted Farage in as the UK ambassador. Farage was keen to work in his government. Farage campaigned for the bloke.

However If I say the guy is a fascist I’m just some weird lefty that doesn’t know what a fascist is, or that the word fascist is too strong because he doesn’t quite have the trousers yet.
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I mean Trump's first presidency was not fascist.

It was mostly completely ineffectual, led to minimal legislation that had lasting impact, and was generally just four years of angry ranting and a turnstyle of hired-and-fired underlings. What little he did get done mostly involved removing commercial taxation and regulation, and actually breaking down the state. His foreign policy was mostly isolationist rather than aggressively war-mongering (which is what you would typically expect from a fascist regime).

That being said, a lot of his actions and rhetoric since losing the election have much more closely fit the label.
It's going to be an incredibly bitter and contentious next nine months of political wrangling, and then if he does win, the US constitution's checks and balances will likely get their biggest test.....since the 1860s at least......
 
Marston Road yellow said:
The Nazis called themselves socialists, and went with a red flag so that they would look less like fascists, and more like they were helping the nation they started with a socialist agenda to get the country on board.

I think the reality of what the word means depends on the actions. So for example with Trump going after Antifa and having groups like proud boys, oath keepers nsc, no white guilt the three percenters on side makes him seem to people like me as a fascist, as he seemed to deliberately appeal to neo Nazis.

He’s building walls to keep the immigrants out ( ironic for an immigrant nation) he tried to suggest that an election was rigged and he made a speech to a lot of these far right groups to go up to the hill and tell them not to ratify the election result.

It has been suggested that he had a conversation the night before with Roger Stone to ask what was going to happen the next day…..
The guy literally tried to overthrow a government with the backing of a lot of far right groups.

This is the guy who suggested to the British government that he wanted Farage in as the UK ambassador. Farage was keen to work in his government. Farage campaigned for the bloke.

However If I say the guy is a fascist I’m just some weird lefty that doesn’t know what a fascist is, or that the word fascist is too strong because he doesn’t quite have the trousers yet.
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If you compare some of the actions performed by Trump fanatics (you reference the insurrection and the Proud Boys) then you've got a point, they do demonstrate fascist behaviours.

If you were to call Trump a fascist I think you would be wrong, but I can see why you might draw the conclusion because of the fanatic fringe groups who support him.

However, if you were to call Nigel Farage a fascist (someone who has never performed a fascist act or made a fascist statement in his life, and is not associated with any "proud boy" style groups) then you are in the land of total fantasy.
 
bashamwonderland said:
If you compare some of the actions performed by Trump fanatics (you reference the insurrection and the Proud Boys) then you've got a point, they do demonstrate fascist behaviours.

If you were to call Trump a fascist I think you would be wrong, but I can see why you might draw the conclusion because of the fanatic fringe groups who support him.

However, if you were to call Nigel Farage a fascist (someone who has never performed a fascist act or made a fascist statement in his life, and is not associated with any "proud boy" style groups) then you are in the land of total fantasy.
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Last thing I would call Farage is a ‘facist’, indeed he has largely pursued his aims through the democratic process, albeit with some questionable funding.

However, ‘xenophobe’ works for me,
 
Big Ron said:
Last thing I would call Farage is a ‘facist’, indeed he has largely pursued his aims through the democratic process, albeit with some questionable funding.
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I don't thing the fascist thing is a useful way this conversation has turned but just to say that the logic holds no water that because someone (Farage in this instance but for Trump earlier this logic was also used) does not operate within a fascist regime that they are not themselves a fascist.

As much as bringing up the Nazis is such a trope on the internet, it's not a bad illustrative example here in that they first operated within a democratic system before then imposing fascism. So your intent being fascistic is the important bit that defines if someone is a fascist, not just "have they done some fascism yet".

I have no great horse in any race of the question "is trump/farage a fascist" though. Also, most of you appear to have no solid internal definition of fascism and so you're arguing over completely different things.
 
Big Ron said:
Last thing I would call Farage is a ‘facist’, indeed he has largely pursued his aims through the democratic process, albeit with some questionable funding.

However, ‘xenophobe’ works for me,
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Populist xenophobic disaster capitalist with a hint of fascist tendency (but we'll never know if he really is a fascist because he'll never have any power to wield) just about covers most bases I think.

But it's a bit of a mouthful....
 
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