Matches Top 6 Race 2023/24

Status
Not open for further replies.
Games against 17th, 19th and 22nd, before a home game against Posh.

Of the three games before Posh, we currently have an aggregate score of 9-0 across the 3 games against those teams this season.

Be cautious, absolutely but i think it is fair to assume that we should have enough to go into the weekend games against Stevenage and Posh with a chance of the play offs.

Possibly but we've had a cross section of games amongst that 25 and we haven't achieved it yet. Obviously I'm hoping but I'm unsure where this sort of expectancy is coming from? Nothing suggests we can suddenly go on some sort of out of character winning run, it was only 9 days ago we were absolutely battered 5-0. We made a mini recovery a few days later but I'm seeing nothing that says we are about to embark on a complete reversal of form and results. I think we will get 11 points from our remaining games, hopefully that's enough but I fear we will be two points short.
 
Possibly but we've had a cross section of games amongst that 25 and we haven't achieved it yet. Obviously I'm hoping but I'm unsure where this sort of expectancy is coming from? Nothing suggests we can suddenly go on some sort of out of character winning run, it was only 9 days ago we were absolutely battered 5-0. We made a mini recovery a few days later but I'm seeing nothing that says we are about to embark on a complete reversal of form and results. I think we will get 11 points from our remaining games, hopefully that's enough but I fear we will be two points short.

With respect, Fleetwood, Shrewsbury and Burton are not Bolton.
 
If there is one thing the managerial debacle has taught me it's that xG can predict the 'true' course of the remainder of the season.

To that end, I'm pleased to confirm that Lincoln's collapse is inevitable. According to xG, they've scored a whopping 12 'extra' goals from open play - and conceded 10 fewer than they 'should' have. So a net difference of 22 goals.

In fact, I've just checked Barnsley too, and even though they have scored 64 goals from open play - it should only be 49. They've also conceded 5 fewer goals than xG tell us. So they are (net) 20 goals better off than they should be. And apparently should be 17 points worse off. Frauds.

Bolton have scored 5 goals more than is correct. And conceded 6 fewer. An 11 fraudulent goal swing.

Even Champions-elect Pompey are guilty. Going forward they are on the money, but even they are cheating xG at the back - they should have conceded 8 more. Apparently that's 10 points they should have dropped.

In fact, every single one of the Top Half are apparently over-performing vs their xG. And (bar Northampton and Shrewsbury) all of the bottom half are  underperforming vs their xG.

It's almost as if (bear with me) - outperforming xG is a sign of a good team?

It also looks like it's sustainsble over a whole season for the top sides, despite being previously led to believe that it inevitably collapses after exactly 16 matches.

xG is dead. Long live xG.
I suspect you know that this is all a bit misleading.

Using the link @Bigdwoolly provided shows the predicted points based on xG and has the top 6 in order as Derby (2nd), Pompey (1st), Peterborough (4th), Bolton (3rd), Stevenage (8th with game in hand) and Lincoln (7th). Pretty accurate.

Current top 6 and their over/underperformance in terms of goals scored

Pompey down 3 goals, around 5% underperformance
Derby up 7 goals, around 10% overperformance
Bolton up 10 goals, around 20% overperformance
Peterborough up 4 goals, around 5% overperformance
Barnsley up 12 goals, just over 20% overperformance
Us up 12 goals, just under 25% overperformance

As ever there is context to apply, it doesn't count chances where someone has missed a ball fizzed across the box or takes a touch instead of hitting it first time like Murphy at the weekend. Once a team is leading there's less incentive to go forwards and push for more goals etc but as it's not an awful system and the fact that it's quite accurate backs this up. As you say, the better teams with better forwards (and I don't remember you being particularly impressed with Harris under Manning) will tend to outperform and the lower teams with lesser players will tend to underperform a little, the biggest overperformers in the league are us, Barnsley and Bolton. You also say about Lincoln tailing off and yes, I think they will. They won't keep scoring about 80% of their shots on target while opponents miss one on ones and fall over taking penalties.

Taking it up to the point Manning left we were overperforming our xG by just over 60%. Plenty of people were saying it wasn't sustainable at the time but were often shouted down by people saying we were third highest scorers in the league. I certainly said myself I didn't think it would last and I wasn't alone in this.

This isn't a dig at Manning either nor saying he did a bad job or it was all luck. Clearly he did a good job here and not even his fiercest critics could suggest we didn't have a clear gameplan and organisation to us and we'll never know what he would have done had he had another window (although in hindsight was his summer window that good? Seems we're lumbered with McEachran and Thorniley a bit, Perkins was a disaster and we spent a fee on Woltman who is miles off it). It's a pretty safe bet we'd be doing better than now and firmly within the playoffs rather than looking to sneak 6th. However I felt at the time and now that he had almost everything go his way, sometimes you make your own luck and you need to put yourself in position to take advantage but I think it's incredibly naive to suggest that we'd have carried on picking up results at exactly the same pace as before.
 
Possibly but we've had a cross section of games amongst that 25 and we haven't achieved it yet. Obviously I'm hoping but I'm unsure where this sort of expectancy is coming from? Nothing suggests we can suddenly go on some sort of out of character winning run, it was only 9 days ago we were absolutely battered 5-0. We made a mini recovery a few days later but I'm seeing nothing that says we are about to embark on a complete reversal of form and results. I think we will get 11 points from our remaining games, hopefully that's enough but I fear we will be two points short.
I suppose that you could look at Cheltenham and PV and that is 6 points out of 6 (PV are a poor team, but Cheltenham have had so e veey good results in the second half of the season)
As was said on The Dub IF we get 5 to 9 points in the next 3 games, then we will go into the 3 'tough' games with a lot of confidence.
It is a tough ask but thete is a way that this could happen.
 
Nor is Port Vale at home, Cheltenham away or Cambridge away.

What you saying about Derby away, Barnsley away, Charlton away, Orient away or Lincoln away?

We get it, you don’t think much of the manager, no problem but for the love of god, can’t you give it a rest? If you’ve nothing positive to say at all, on the back of a win and with us right in the mix for the play offs then what is the point?
 
What you saying about Derby away, Barnsley away, Charlton away, Orient away or Lincoln away?

We get it, you don’t think much of the manager, no problem but for the love of god, can’t you give it a rest? If you’ve nothing positive to say at all, on the back of a win and with us right in the mix for the play offs then what is the point?

Nothing to do with the manager, I thought you were on about the team ? I think those three games I highlighted were when Manning was manager. I'm sure two were and I think Cheltenham away was DB's first game so not one I'd heap blame on him for. I'm not even talking about the manager in this instance so you can calm down :rolleyes:.
 
What you saying about Derby away, Barnsley away, Charlton away, Orient away or Lincoln away?

We get it, you don’t think much of the manager, no problem but for the love of god, can’t you give it a rest? If you’ve nothing positive to say at all, on the back of a win and with us right in the mix for the play offs then what is the point?

Re your last sentence why have I read posts from you critical of a few players ? If you've nothing positive to say at all, on the back of a win and with us right in the mix for the play offs then what is the point?
 
Nothing to do with the manager, I thought you were on about the team ? I think those three games I highlighted were when Manning was manager. I'm sure two were and I think Cheltenham away was DB's first game so not one I'd heap blame on him for. I'm not even talking about the manager in this instance so you can calm down :rolleyes:.

You wasn't indirectly referencing the manager, you just coincidentally referenced the last 25 games - roughly the number of games that the manager has been in charge. OK Dick.

I'm perfectly calm. I love my football club and will be supporting them vociferously throughout the run in.

Enjoy your day.
 
Re your last sentence why have I read posts from you critical of a few players ? If you've nothing positive to say at all, on the back of a win and with us right in the mix for the play offs then what is the point?

I'm impressed that you value my opinion so much that you can recall what i have posted. I'll take that as a compliment Dick, thank you.

For the record, i have been critical of various players throughout the season. Arguably Sam Long is the one that has come in for most criticism from me. However, as i'm sure you will recall, as you take such notice of my musings, even Sam Long got a mention by me last Saturday for the really positive display that he turned in.

You see Dick, it is all about balance.

It's great that on this occasion, you were not referencing the Manager. That makes me feel better.
 
I'm impressed that you value my opinion so much that you can recall what i have posted. I'll take that as a compliment Dick, thank you.

For the record, i have been critical of various players throughout the season. Arguably Sam Long is the one that has come in for most criticism from me. However, as i'm sure you will recall, as you take such notice of my musings, even Sam Long got a mention by me last Saturday for the really positive display that he turned in.

You see Dick, it is all about balance.

It's great that on this occasion, you were not referencing the Manager. That makes me feel better.

So, for your positivity re Sam Long see my posts last Saturday/Sunday saying that I was pleased for Des and that it was a good three points. I also added that any mind can be changed and I don't dismiss the idea that I could do a complete u turn re Des Buckingham. Maybe just think a bit more before you jump to the wrong conclusion. In my opinion I make some perfectly valid and reasoned arguments.
 
I'm on the same page as @ECYellow on this. We have 4 home game and there is absolutely no way that we should accept anything under 10k for the Easter Monday game v Fleetwood and the Saturday games against Peterborough and Stevenage.

Lincoln on a Tuesday night, between two home games and after the kids have gone back to school, is a harder sell, but we also need to get out in numbers.

7 games to go, and 4 home wins alone would likely be enough considering the teams we play.

We need to get out in numbers, make some noise and support the team from the first whistle to the last.
 
Finally, a moderator tackling the important stuff. Can we also institute a ban for people who write loose rather than lose
I try not to be a member of the grammar police, mainly because mine is far from perfect. But, this particular error drives me barmy and therefore I support your request.
 
I have disagreed with @ECYellow a lot on this forum but he is bang on here with his comments @dickwalton1964.
I know Man United aren’t having a great season and will up with no trophies but we are potentially in for an exciting end to the season which can be rare for a league 1 team so I do find it strange when people are constantly negative.
 
I suspect you know that this is all a bit misleading.

Using the link @Bigdwoolly provided shows the predicted points based on xG and has the top 6 in order as Derby (2nd), Pompey (1st), Peterborough (4th), Bolton (3rd), Stevenage (8th with game in hand) and Lincoln (7th). Pretty accurate.

Current top 6 and their over/underperformance in terms of goals scored

Pompey down 3 goals, around 5% underperformance
Derby up 7 goals, around 10% overperformance
Bolton up 10 goals, around 20% overperformance
Peterborough up 4 goals, around 5% overperformance
Barnsley up 12 goals, just over 20% overperformance
Us up 12 goals, just under 25% overperformance

As ever there is context to apply, it doesn't count chances where someone has missed a ball fizzed across the box or takes a touch instead of hitting it first time like Murphy at the weekend. Once a team is leading there's less incentive to go forwards and push for more goals etc but as it's not an awful system and the fact that it's quite accurate backs this up. As you say, the better teams with better forwards (and I don't remember you being particularly impressed with Harris under Manning) will tend to outperform and the lower teams with lesser players will tend to underperform a little, the biggest overperformers in the league are us, Barnsley and Bolton. You also say about Lincoln tailing off and yes, I think they will. They won't keep scoring about 80% of their shots on target while opponents miss one on ones and fall over taking penalties.

Taking it up to the point Manning left we were overperforming our xG by just over 60%. Plenty of people were saying it wasn't sustainable at the time but were often shouted down by people saying we were third highest scorers in the league. I certainly said myself I didn't think it would last and I wasn't alone in this.

This isn't a dig at Manning either nor saying he did a bad job or it was all luck. Clearly he did a good job here and not even his fiercest critics could suggest we didn't have a clear gameplan and organisation to us and we'll never know what he would have done had he had another window (although in hindsight was his summer window that good? Seems we're lumbered with McEachran and Thorniley a bit, Perkins was a disaster and we spent a fee on Woltman who is miles off it). It's a pretty safe bet we'd be doing better than now and firmly within the playoffs rather than looking to sneak 6th. However I felt at the time and now that he had almost everything go his way, sometimes you make your own luck and you need to put yourself in position to take advantage but I think it's incredibly naive to suggest that we'd have carried on picking up results at exactly the same pace as before.

Thank you for the added level of nuance to aid my understanding of xG.

Just so we're clear:
Overperforming vs xG, just a bit = good.
Overperforming vs xG a little bit more = not so good (unless you're Barnsley or Bolton, then it's quite good again)?

Meanwhile I notice you deliberately steered clear of the expected Goals Against (it's right there in your very own data source - in the next column!), whereby everyone in the promotion frame has outperformed their xGA except us? So our 'net overperformance' isn't quite as drastic as you suggest is it? Talk about misleading!

We've scored 12 'too many' goals is it? How about looking at individual games? 8 of our 'overperforming goals' came in the five matches in which we scored three goals under Manning - none of which, technically, were needed to win the game. So, xG is actually penalising us for having the gall to get a 3rd at Fleetwood or Stevenage.

For xG to improve vs real human goals, we really needed to stick to just the two goals in these games - and miss a couple of sitters, didn't we?

And then maybe, at home and 3 up against Shrewsbury, what we really needed to do was try and boost our xG by, presumably, creating a raft of chances but deliberately missing them - ya know, get the old xG back on an even keel! Nothing like smashing a wasteful 6.98 on xG - that's four pretend goals we could have used later in the season after all.

Anyway, I'm just glad xG is finally getting the recognition it deserves on this forum.

I'm already excited to go 1-0 up at Shrewsbury and belt out a chorus of "1.13 - 0.86 to the Oxford Boys"...
 
I have disagreed with @ECYellow a lot on this forum but he is bang on here with his comments @dickwalton1964.
I know Man United aren’t having a great season and will up with no trophies but we are potentially in for an exciting end to the season which can be rare for a league 1 team so I do find it strange when people are constantly negative.

Not surprising, like ECYellow you’re another who’s a specialist in contradiction. You were slagging off anyone and everyone after Bolton. Even when we lost that game we still had every chance of the play offs, so why weren’t you getting behind the players and manager like you are now - that’s was only 9 days and 2 games ago !!!!!

I will give myself one thing - I have a consistent view and don’t change it on a match to match basis.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom