Manager/Coach Des Buckingham

Northernyellow said:
Mourinho never played a single pro game, and started out as Bobby Robson's interpreter. Roy Hodgson had an amateur playing career. There are a number of coaches in the Bundesliga who never played as a pro. Kieran McKenna never played a pro game. And so on. It's more about having a brain and a personality. Which is why John Terry, Lampard, Rooney etc. have all failed as managers.
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But isn't brain usage and man management rather than personality the primary skill sets of any manager.
It always surprises me that most managers have no management training. They unfortunately get promoted to incompetance. Industry knowledge is no substitute for managerial skills.
High level footballers invariably fail because they cannot relate to players with lower skill sets. Those that never had them, adapt well because they have done it as a life skill.
 
MustardYellow said:
?

That isn't evidence he's a very good coach. That's like saying any player who's been in City's academy is 'very good' simply because they were part of the City Group. What determines whether you're 'very good' or not are your accomplishments and the level or your accomplishments - not who you were employed by.
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It's not like that all, he was employed by City Group because of what he had achieved.
 
WEYellow said:
It's not like that all, he was employed by City Group because of what he had achieved.
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But we're talking about his achievements as a manager. As I said earlier, he's done well in his previous roles but they aren't exactly a high level of football. We haven't seen much so far to suggest he's a 'very good' manager' for us.
 
Leysboy said:
You can address this issue sooner, and maybe just maybe, this season isn’t wasted.
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Leysboy said:
It’s not a Des out cry
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This is why no one takes you seriously. In the same post you call for Des to be sacked, then say you don't want him sacked.

On Sunday you said promotion this season would be more harmful long term, now you're moaning as you don't think we'll get promoted. But if promotion this season would do us more harm than good (in tour eyes, not mine), why would you want us to be promoted?
 
It seems that a lot of the posters who want Des out are getting a bit confused about what they actually want or why they don't like Des.

As has been said before, Des being picked to work in the City group shows that he is seen as a good, young, up and coming coach. Is he the finished article? No of course not but he is a young coach, working his way up through the game and if we can benefit from that journey then good.

Fans used to want to see Chrissy Allen given a chance at the role of 1st team manager, yet he had done nothing in the game management wise except for non league and our academy.
 
MustardYellow said:
But we're talking about his achievements as a manager. As I said earlier, he's done well in his previous roles but they aren't exactly a high level of football. We haven't seen much so far to suggest he's a 'very good' manager' for us.
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Somewhere in a paralel universe (well, Sheffield), there's a blades fan making exactly the same point about Chris Wilder . . . .
 
MustardYellow said:
But we're talking about his achievements as a manager. As I said earlier, he's done well in his previous roles but they aren't exactly a high level of football. We haven't seen much so far to suggest he's a 'very good' manager' for us.
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I keep hearing this about the ISL. Whilst I wouldn't say that the level of football there is completely comparable to League 1, there are players there that are capable of playing in this division. Just browsing the list of UK and Irish players who have played there over the last few seasons and you get a good idea of the quality of player who is tempted there. There's a number of familiar names such as Jake Jervis, Ryan Edwards (the Morecambe/Plymouth one), Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, Matt Derbyshire (who is back in England at Bradford now), Carl McHugh, Peter Hartley, Adam Le Fondre, Gary Hooper and Steven Taylor who have all played there since 2020. All players I would argue who would have been or are playing in the EFL still and there's even a few playing in the SPL after their return from India. Maybe if we could hazard a guess at the quality you could say it was League 2ish but without pitching one of their better sides against a playoff side from League 2, we're unlikely to know.

DB has talked a lot about communication, especially in the interviews not long after he joined. That's what's important rather than the 'level' he was pitching his ideas at. It also doesn't automatically mean that DB is using tactics and ploys that worked at a 'lesser' level here now. He may well be changing his style now he is working with 'better' players and that can take time. Managers have to evolve and it's the reason why so many end up on the scrapheap because many don't move with the times. Paul Tisdale's Exeter were an interesting and inventive team when he was their manager. He's since flopped at MK Dons, Bristol Rovers and Stevenage since and no one will go near him. I fear MApp has gone the same way since he glacial starts at clubs just don't yield results quickly enough. Andy Scott and Dave Penney had promotions within the EFL and yet won't ever get a managerial job ever again here.

It is so laughable that there is a small minority calling for a change as though it would guarantee a change in fortunes to make us unbeatable and like this is the one and only chance to get promoted from League 1. Relax a bit and accept that a jump from 19th to 2nd was always fanciful after KR left a train wreck from last season to contend with it. Promotion would be great but it isn't fatal to not achieve it this season.
 
unification said:
I keep hearing this about the ISL. Whilst I wouldn't say that the level of football there is completely comparable to League 1, there are players there that are capable of playing in this division. Just browsing the list of UK and Irish players who have played there over the last few seasons and you get a good idea of the quality of player who is tempted there. There's a number of familiar names such as Jake Jervis, Ryan Edwards (the Morecambe/Plymouth one), Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, Matt Derbyshire (who is back in England at Bradford now), Carl McHugh, Peter Hartley, Adam Le Fondre, Gary Hooper and Steven Taylor who have all played there since 2020. All players I would argue who would have been or are playing in the EFL still and there's even a few playing in the SPL after their return from India. Maybe if we could hazard a guess at the quality you could say it was League 2ish but without pitching one of their better sides against a playoff side from League 2, we're unlikely to know.

DB has talked a lot about communication, especially in the interviews not long after he joined. That's what's important rather than the 'level' he was pitching his ideas at. It also doesn't automatically mean that DB is using tactics and ploys that worked at a 'lesser' level here now. He may well be changing his style now he is working with 'better' players and that can take time. Managers have to evolve and it's the reason why so many end up on the scrapheap because many don't move with the times. Paul Tisdale's Exeter were an interesting and inventive team when he was their manager. He's since flopped at MK Dons, Bristol Rovers and Stevenage since and no one will go near him. I fear MApp has gone the same way since he glacial starts at clubs just don't yield results quickly enough. Andy Scott and Dave Penney had promotions within the EFL and yet won't ever get a managerial job ever again here.

It is so laughable that there is a small minority calling for a change as though it would guarantee a change in fortunes to make us unbeatable and like this is the one and only chance to get promoted from League 1. Relax a bit and accept that a jump from 19th to 2nd was always fanciful after KR left a train wreck from last season to contend with it. Promotion would be great but it isn't fatal to not achieve it this season.
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I definitely agree there are/have been some decent players there, and the same for the Australian league, but I just don't think it's comparable to L1.

I definitely don't think he should be sacked, but I think some are and have been hyping him up too much. Using phrases like 'very good' to describe a manager who's lost more league games than he's won (just 5 since he's been here) is questionable at best.

Obviously there's still time to turn things round, and I really hope he does, but even the biggest Buckingham fan must admit we haven't seen much to suggest that turn will happen any time soon.

Imo promotion is quite important before the new stadium is built. Obviously for the cash, but it would also go a long way to filling that stadium as often as possible.
 
38yearsofpain said:
But isn't brain usage and man management rather than personality the primary skill sets of any manager.
It always surprises me that most managers have no management training. They unfortunately get promoted to incompetance. Industry knowledge is no substitute for managerial skills.
High level footballers invariably fail because they cannot relate to players with lower skill sets. Those that never had them, adapt well because they have done it as a life skill.
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Yup. Listen to the 'elite' coaches and they're obviously pretty bright. And many of them have had a very average pro career. Or (and increasingly) no pro career at all.
 
CCYellow said:
This is why no one takes you seriously. In the same post you call for Des to be sacked, then say you don't want him sacked.

On Sunday you said promotion this season would be more harmful long term, now you're moaning as you don't think we'll get promoted. But if promotion this season would do us more harm than good (in tour eyes, not mine), why would you want us to be promoted?
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He claims he’s not Des out but is Des out in the poll. So there’s another example.

On the one hand you feel inclined for us all to just agree to ignore his posts, but at the same time everyone has a right to their opinion
But when its inconsistent and some of it laughably spurious it’s hard to listen to, let alone respond to.
And we gotta put up with at least another 2 months of it.
 
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MustardYellow said:
I definitely agree there are/have been some decent players there, and the same for the Australian league, but I just don't think it's comparable to L1.

I definitely don't think he should be sacked, but I think some are and have been hyping him up too much. Using phrases like 'very good' to describe a manager who's lost more league games than he's won (just 5 since he's been here) is questionable at best.

Obviously there's still time to turn things round, and I really hope he does, but even the biggest Buckingham fan must admit we haven't seen much to suggest that turn will happen any time soon.

Imo promotion is quite important before the new stadium is built. Obviously for the cash, but it would also go a long way to filling that stadium as often as possible.
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You don’t think he should be sacked - yet that’s the way you voted in the poll.

And every remark you make about him shows that you don’t have any faith in him, don’t believe anyone else has any reason to have any faith in him and are now implying that we need promotion quite urgently to build a new statdium.

The people who are planning to fund out new stadium have made a three year commitment to Des. Why don’t you do the same?
 
unification said:
I keep hearing this about the ISL. Whilst I wouldn't say that the level of football there is completely comparable to League 1, there are players there that are capable of playing in this division. Just browsing the list of UK and Irish players who have played there over the last few seasons and you get a good idea of the quality of player who is tempted there. There's a number of familiar names such as Jake Jervis, Ryan Edwards (the Morecambe/Plymouth one), Jay Emmanuel-Thomas, Matt Derbyshire (who is back in England at Bradford now), Carl McHugh, Peter Hartley, Adam Le Fondre, Gary Hooper and Steven Taylor who have all played there since 2020. All players I would argue who would have been or are playing in the EFL still and there's even a few playing in the SPL after their return from India. Maybe if we could hazard a guess at the quality you could say it was League 2ish but without pitching one of their better sides against a playoff side from League 2, we're unlikely to know.

DB has talked a lot about communication, especially in the interviews not long after he joined. That's what's important rather than the 'level' he was pitching his ideas at. It also doesn't automatically mean that DB is using tactics and ploys that worked at a 'lesser' level here now. He may well be changing his style now he is working with 'better' players and that can take time. Managers have to evolve and it's the reason why so many end up on the scrapheap because many don't move with the times. Paul Tisdale's Exeter were an interesting and inventive team when he was their manager. He's since flopped at MK Dons, Bristol Rovers and Stevenage since and no one will go near him. I fear MApp has gone the same way since he glacial starts at clubs just don't yield results quickly enough. Andy Scott and Dave Penney had promotions within the EFL and yet won't ever get a managerial job ever again here.

It is so laughable that there is a small minority calling for a change as though it would guarantee a change in fortunes to make us unbeatable and like this is the one and only chance to get promoted from League 1. Relax a bit and accept that a jump from 19th to 2nd was always fanciful after KR left a train wreck from last season to contend with it. Promotion would be great but it isn't fatal to not achieve it this season.
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This point needs reaffirming to everyone moaning.

We literally would be a League Two club now had KR stayed a few more weeks last season.
 
billyturleyscurlywurly said:
This point needs reaffirming to everyone moaning.

We literally would be a League Two club now had KR stayed a few more weeks last season.
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I really don't buy this, yes we were 19th but with a squad of players that should have been mid table at worst. The fact we were 19th was due to KR mid life crisis.. Again, we were 2nd under Manning and we were artifically high in the league, he was either brilliant or he found an ideal working arrangement. Time will tell which it was.
The concerns under Des are obvious, like it or lump it they are there. People say player errors are not the managers fault. Ultimately they are because the buck rests with him.
I do think he has had a raw deal and I have no idea why backroom staff were not hired in a timely manner but it has obviously not helped. The announcement of Luke Taylor is a step in the right direction.
I am not expecting him to be sacked anytime soon, it would mean TW has to accept he made a mistake, that's certainly not his or this ownerships style. They have made a big investment in Des I doubt thats being chucked down the toilet this season.
If the performances and style don't change more fans will quite rightly question this managerial choice.I suspect dwindling attendances more than results is what matters to those who make the managerial decision.
 
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38yearsofpain said:
I really don't buy this, yes we were 19th but with a squad of players that should have been mid table at worst. The fact we were 19th was due to KR mid life crisis.. Again, we were 2nd under Manning and we were artifically high in the league, he was either brilliant or he found an ideal working arrangement. Time will tell which it was.
The concerns under Des are obvious, like it or lump it they are there. People say player errors are not the managers fault. Ultimately they are because the buck rests with him.
I do think he has had a raw deal and I have no idea why backroom staff were not hired in a timely manner but it has obviously not helped. The announcement of Luke Taylor is a step in the right direction.
I am not expecting him to be sacked anytime soon, it would mean TW has to accept he made a mistake, that's certainly not his or this ownerships style. They have made a big investment in Des I doubt thats being chucked down the toilet this season.
If the performances and style don't change more fans will quite rightly question this managerial choice.I suspect dwindling attendances more than results is what matters to those who make the managerial decision.
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“Ultimately they are because the buck rests with him”
This is a hugely annoying platitude that always gets thrown around just to probably perpetuate an agenda, avoiding any nuance.
There’s a difference between fault and responsibility.
 
the squad of players Robinson left us with were injured , neglected, and mismanaged so that we would have been relegated. The squad was also unbalanced and I can't imagine the atmosphere was good.

That threadbare and mismanaged squad was what Buckingham had at his disposal when he arrived, Manning had made some positive additions- like a brilliant young keeper on loan from a Premier League and a very sharp young winger also on loan from a premier league club. both of them returned at the end of December,

Manning did win the respect of the players by keeping them up, and then had a summer to work with the squad.

Harris was a good signing but had stopped scoring. Edwards and Leigh were two very strong signings Both were injured when Buckingham arrived. Edwards still is. MacEachran came from Milton Keynes but is a squad player only.

You persist in claiming that the problems with Buckingham are “obvious” but you don’t explicitly state what they are.
Some are claiming he doesn’t have a plan - although others seem very good at seeing what the plan is and analysing it.

We’ve made some good signings.
Josh Murphy is now playing regularly, scoring and winning man of the match both on here and in the stadium. Harris has doubled his goals under Buckingham, are thoe problems? Or are the problems he faces to do with working with a team which isn't a team for all sorts of reasons.

Why not stop undermining him?
 
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Steve Gilbert said:
It seems that a lot of the posters who want Des out are getting a bit confused about what they actually want or why they don't like Des.

As has been said before, Des being picked to work in the City group shows that he is seen as a good, young, up and coming coach. Is he the finished article? No of course not but he is a young coach, working his way up through the game and if we can benefit from that journey then good.

Fans used to want to see Chrissy Allen given a chance at the role of 1st team manager, yet he had done nothing in the game management wise except for non league and our academy.
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I suspect there are a number of different reasons.
Firstly, those who expect us to win and get promoted maybe unrealistic but they obviously exist. Secondly, those who are concerned by the lack of any style of play. Thirdly, those that are quite simply bored by what they are seeing. Fourthly, those who wanted a Manning style of football replacement, if it ain't broke don't
fix it manager. I'm sure there are other reasons.
I totally accept Des is an up and coming coach with potential. Some managerial appointments work, some don't, it is always a risk. I am sure ex City group coaches have failed in first outside group appointments.
Personally, something doesn't feel right, I talk to a cross section of the fan base and other than Clotet I have never felt this high level of unease at such an early point in a managers reign. I totally accept fans are not the best to assess but I do understand the concerns because we are all passionate about our club.
 
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QuietYeller said:
“Ultimately they are because the buck rests with him”
This is a hugely annoying platitude that always gets thrown around just to probably perpetuate an agenda, avoiding any nuance.
There’s a difference between fault and responsibility.
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In the football industry that is absolutely true. Managers mostly get sacked because of poor results, actually it's like like any managerial role. You manage, it's your responsibility and ownership. You can argue it's my workers fault but you still get your P45. It's part of the territory of managing. I totally accept in other industries the timeframe is longer.
If Des worked for some clubs he may well have already left!! I don't agree with it but it's life as a football manager.
 
38yearsofpain said:
I suspect there are a number of different reasons.
Firstly, those who expect us to win and get promoted maybe unrealistic but they obviously exist. Secondly, those who are concerned by the lack of any style of play. Thirdly, those that are quite simply bored by what they are seeing. Fourthly, those who wanted a Manning style of football replacement, if it ain't broke don't
fix it manager. I'm sure there are other reasons.
I totally accept Des is an up and coming coach with potential. Some managerial appointments work, some don't, it is always a risk. I am sure ex City group coaches have failed in first outside group appointments.
Personally, something doesn't feel right, I talk to a cross section of the fan base and other than Clotet I have never felt this high level of unease at such an early point in a managers reign. I totally accept fans are not the best to assess but I do understand the concerns because we are all passionate about our club.
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Just like with Northampton's injury time equaliser, there are a whole raft of events that lead up to this.

The perception that our league position would've been maintained (even though the from was already dropping off and included some very mediocre performances), had Manning stayed
The injury list and lack of balanced squad available for a number of crucial players not available for crucial games
The lack of a clear assistant appointment and Des seemingly having to "make do" with the team around him who were already here.
The lack of clear leadership or direction from the clubs senior management and (possibly) a lack of day to day support from said senior management for an inexperienced manager who has just uprooted his entire life, from practically half a world away, to take this job.
The need to operate quickly and effectively in the transfer window to try and balance the shortcomings (we pretty much got there in the end I think....).

The result being that nothing from top to bottom in the club has seemingly been firing on all cylinders for quite some time and therefore the unease has grown, especially after they way we started the season under Manning. I think the manner and timing of his departure was also a big shock to club and fans and think it's added to the downer many are still on.

I do seem to remember after we managed to escape relegation last season, that few people were talking over the summer about us challenging for promotion this season. Upper mid table consolidation with Manning building the squad he wanted and maybe a run at the playoffs if we get it right quickly enough. That seemed to be the general feel. Yet here we are still at the upper end of that expectation and with a squad of players that (I think) is only going to get better between now and May.
 
This forum attracts a cross section of the fan base too. 148 of us voted and the overwhelming majority was to give Buckingham a summer transfer window.
 
38yearsofpain said:
In the football industry that is absolutely true. Managers mostly get sacked because of poor results, actually it's like like any managerial role. You manage, it's your responsibility and ownership. You can argue it's my workers fault but you still get your P45. It's part of the territory of managing. I totally accept in other industries the timeframe is longer.
If Des worked for some clubs he may well have already left!! I don't agree with it but it's life as a football manager.
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But we’re not talking about him being sacked we’re talking about how he’s doing, you make valid points but it’s only fair to have balance too. I feel you’ve just thrown that cliche in to strengthen your argument. It’s a fact players have let him down at times.
 
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