Championship Wrexham

[RgYellows]

I believe it is assessed by an independent panel. Price of Football went through this a few months back with regard to the Premier League rules, can't remember the details.

If I go to the Price of Football website the top story is them undervaluing Chelsea by more than £2bn so I’ll remain sceptical on how easy it is to value things in football.

 

[SteMerritt]

If I go to the Price of Football website the top story is them undervaluing Chelsea by more than £2bn so I’ll remain skeptical on how easy it is to value things in football.

It's not 'them' undervaluing Chelsea, it is a look at the figures and working out what an expected value is based on a number of factors. The final sentence sums it up...

Therefore anyone bidding £2.5bn-£3bn for Chelsea is assuming that the business has been poorly run historically OR there are substantial untapped revenue sources (SuperLeague Mark II or NFT’s?) or cost savings to be achieved in the future…or the prospective owners simply want a trophy asset and are willing to pay a premium to acquire it.

The value of a club is always what somebody is willing to pay for it. The issue of sponsorship is different, it is easy to spot outliers. If whoever comes in to sponsor our shirts next season comes in and offers £10M for the privilege, it is very easy to see that is overpriced by looking at other deals for clubs of a similar stature to us.

 

[RgYellows]

It's not 'them' undervaluing Chelsea, it is a look at the figures and working out what an expected value is based on a number of factors. The final sentence sums it up...



The value of a club is always what somebody is willing to pay for it. The issue of sponsorship is different, it is easy to spot outliers. If whoever comes in to sponsor our shirts next season comes in and offers £10M for the privilege, it is very easy to see that is overpriced by looking at other deals for clubs of a similar stature to us.

Sorry, no.

You saying the £10m shirt sponsorship is overvalued is compared to an (unscientific) “expected value based on a number of factors”. Which makes it the same.

The first valuation he provides is based on the valuation of Man Utd, adjusted for differences in financial metrics. That’s better than comparing a headline sponsorship figure to “clubs of a similar stature to us” (with presumably no adjustment) and it turned out to be nonsense compared to what a buyer paid on an open market.

A club is worth what someone will pay for it. So is a shirt sponsorship. Only Man City can offer a sponsorship of (potential) English treble winners in 2024. Only Wrexham can offer sponsorship of a club owned by Ryan Reynolds. Good lawyers will win these arguments.

 

[bazzer9461]

The Conference again will have it's own rules, I don't know what they are. I'm pretty certain you can't just go and put massive money in via sponsorship details that are way above what the sponsorship is actually worth. The EFL will no doubt be looking at this.

Man City did this when they were bought out 20million per season shirt sponsorship

 

[SteMerritt]

Sorry, no.

You saying the £10m shirt sponsorship is overvalued is compared to an (unscientific) “expected value based on a number of factors”. Which makes it the same.

The first valuation he provides is based on the valuation of Man Utd, adjusted for differences in financial metrics. That’s better than comparing a headline sponsorship figure to “clubs of a similar stature to us” (with presumably no adjustment) and it turned out to be nonsense compared to what a buyer paid on an open market.

A club is worth what someone will pay for it. So is a shirt sponsorship. Only Man City can offer a sponsorship of (potential) English treble winners in 2024. Only Wrexham can offer sponsorship of a club owned by Ryan Reynolds. Good lawyers will win these arguments.

You are misunderstanding. He was looking from a potential return in investment angle, and said in the closing statement what exceptions would be (including vanity purchases). What a club is bought for is not considered by FFP, it's irrelevant. What FFP does with regards to sponsorship I believe is work out what a 'fair' price for sponsorship is, and only that amount is counted towards FFP. You can read about the Premier League rules by going here (The Times)

 

[RgYellows]

You are misunderstanding. He was looking from a potential return in investment angle, and said in the closing statement what exceptions would be (including vanity purchases). What a club is bought for is not considered by FFP, it's irrelevant. What FFP does with regards to sponsorship I believe is work out what a 'fair' price for sponsorship is, and only that amount is counted towards FFP. You can read about the Premier League rules by going here (The Times)

I am not misunderstanding. I did not say club valuations impacted FFP (go back and check). I said that attempts to calculate a “fair value” for purposes other than handing over your cold hard cash are often nonsense. A good lawyer can make a compelling argument for whatever valuation they want. I said that the attempt of your source to calculate a “fair value” in good faith gave an answer that was comical when compared to the actual value which was paid by a third party.

If you think Clearlake Capital invested in Chelsea for vanity then we have very different experience of private equity.

 

[SteMerritt]

I am not misunderstanding. I did not say club valuations impacted FFP (go back and check). I said that attempts to calculate a “fair value” for purposes other than handing over your cold hard cash are nonsense. They come down to who pays more for lawyers. I said that the attempt of your source to calculate a “fair value” gave an answer that was comical when compared to the actual value which was paid by a third party.

If you think Clearlake Capital invested in Chelsea for vanity then we have very different experience of private equity.

You were talking about value of clubs being overvalued or undervalued based on what was paid for them, in a discussion about sponsorship warping FFP, so I just clarified that point. Did you look at the link to the reported change in Premier League rules, which stated exactly what they do for perceived overly inflated sums for sponsorship? I'll quote it below...

This means that all new sponsorship deals will have to be submitted to the Premier League to be approved. An independent company will decide whether the proposed deal is of fair market value. The assessor will have access to a database of all other top-flight clubs’ deals so that it will be obvious if it is artificially high.

These rules were voted through around the time of the Newcastle take-over, when there were those from other clubs who were worried about sponsorship being used as a way to get large sums of money into clubs. That's all I said. I have no opinion on the value of Chelsea (or Man Utd), I don't care if they are over or under priced to be honest.

 

[RgYellows]

You were talking about value of clubs being overvalued or undervalued based on what was paid for them, in a discussion about sponsorship warping FFP, so I just clarified that point. Did you look at the link to the reported change in Premier League rules, which stated exactly what they do for perceived overly inflated sums for sponsorship? I'll quote it below...



These rules were voted through around the time of the Newcastle take-over, when there were those from other clubs who were worried about sponsorship being used as a way to get large sums of money into clubs. That's all I said. I have no opinion on the value of Chelsea (or Man Utd), I don't care if they are over or under priced to be honest.

The valuation of Chelsea was referenced as an example of how hard it is to value things in football. That’s it.

Thanks for the extract. A non-valuations expert says “it will be obvious” if it’s artificially high. I’m convinced! Thank the Lord you made sure I saw that powerful argument.

So let’s say that they’re valuing the Man City shirt sponsorship next season. How much data do they have on the value of primary sponsorship of English treble winners in 2023/24? Or will they be making the same sort of adjustments that led some bloke to conclude that £2.5bn was a bit toppy for something that was evidently worth £4.25bn two months later?

Weirdly this has not convinced me of the rigour of the current system. I’m going to get on with my day now. Always enjoy debating, Ste!

 

[SteMerritt]

The valuation of Chelsea was referenced as an example of how hard it is to value things in football. That’s it.

Thanks for the extract. A non-valuations expert says “it will be obvious” if it’s artificially high. I’m convinced! Thank the Lord you made sure I saw that powerful argument.

So let’s say that they’re valuing the Man City shirt sponsorship next season. How much data do they have on the value of primary sponsorship of English treble winners in 2023/24? Or will they be making the same sort of adjustments that led some bloke to conclude that £2.5bn was a bit toppy for something that was evidently worth £4.25bn two months later?

Weirdly this has not convinced me of the rigour of the current system. I’m going to get on with my day now. Always enjoy debating, Ste!

I'm not making an argument, I'm putting out links for information that I heard, and this is relevant to the discussion. I mentioned I heard discussion of it on POF podcast, and provided a link saying the same thing from a newspaper. Until it's tested, then it's guesswork as to how, or indeed if, it will work. You'd need to question the 'independent company' on that, and also on what information they are basing it on.

Not really sure why you are getting all annoyed really

 

[SirAndyOfCrosby]

You two are going to end up f**king.

 

[RgYellows]

You two are going to end up f**king.

He only responds to public messages on the main forum

 

[OUFCGav]

Wrexham's new shirt sponsorship deal is with United Airlines. No figures announced. They also signed a bunch more sponsorship deals. I don't think income will be an issue.

 

[Marked Ox]

Wrexham's new shirt sponsorship deal is with United Airlines. No figures announced. They also signed a bunch more sponsorship deals. I don't think income will be an issue.

Yep, don't think it'll be an issue. The benefit of publicity from the Hollywood links and Disney.

Edited: Change Netflix to Disney.

 

[holdsteady]

They have a huge star as one owner, a fairly big name as the other owner and a show on Disney plus (not Netflix bazzer), with all the attention that this brings to them added to social media then it’s not surprising that they can get paid well from sponsors, it’s still cheaper than sponsoring the smaller prem clubs but probably gives you just as much exposure.

Reynolds is a marketing genius, he plays an exaggerated version of himself in every film and has turned that into gold, Wrexham are an extension of that now, while he is on board they are going to fly up the leagues.

What comes after Reynolds etc is no different for any club, your owners won’t be there forever.

 

[holdsteady]

Yep, don't think it'll be an issue. The benefit of publicity from the Hollywood links and Netflix.

It’s Disney plus not Netflix, that was Sunderland, less of a happy ending to that one unless you like seeing posh ex Oxford fans pretending to DJ.

 

[Marked Ox]

It’s Disney plus not Netflix, that was Sunderland, less of a happy ending to that one unless you like seeing posh ex Oxford fans pretending to DJ.

Yep, cheers, and changed the original post. I don't have either so never seen it.

 

[holdsteady]

Yep, cheers, and changed the original post. I don't have either so never seen it.

I have all of them, spend most of the time looking for something to watch on them rather than watching anything, you are not missing much.

 

[Peterdev]

Good luck to Wrexham. I hadn’t realised they had been out of the league for fifteen years. For the fans that is good news. Their manager, Phil Parkinson, has done a Sterling job getting them including two of our ex players in their line up along with Mullin.

 

[OxShireWest]

Good luck to Wrexham. I hadn’t realised they had been out of the league for fifteen years. For the fans that is good news. Their manager, Phil Parkinson, has done a Sterling job getting them including two of our ex players in their line up along with Mullin.

A sterling job...?

I genuinely believe I could've got Wrexham promoted last season.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I genuinely believe I could've got Wrexham promoted last season.

I think you ought to contact Chelsea FC.

 

[SteMerritt]

I think you ought to contact Chelsea FC.

To be fair, it would be hard to be worse than they had last season...

 

[Carpy]

A club is worth what someone will pay for it. So is a shirt sponsorship.

This is wrong, individuals are often buying a club to stroke their ego, it's a play thing for people with too much money.

A sponsorship deal will more often than not need to demonstrate some kind of quantifiable return, whether that be brand recognition, increased sales etc.

 

[OxShireWest]

This is wrong, individuals are often buying a club to stroke their ego, it's a play thing for people with too much money.

A sponsorship deal will more often than not need to demonstrate some kind of quantifiable return, whether that be brand recognition, increased sales etc.

Or in the case of an owner sponsoring their own club, it's just a cash injection to bypass spending rules!

 

[OxShireWest]

I think you ought to contact Chelsea FC.

It couldn't get much worse, so maybe i should...

 

[Carpy]

Or in the case of an owner sponsoring their own club, it's just a cash injection to bypass spending rules!

Bangkok Glass Stadium here we come

 

[Older Shotts]

Bangkok Glass Stadium here we come

We've had worse stadium names

 

[OxShireWest]

Bangkok Glass Stadium here we come

I've seen a few people say this... do our owners actually have anything to do with Bangkok Glass (the business, not the football club lol)?

 

[North Wales Yellow]

@OxShireWest Are you a Chester fan?

 

[OxShireWest]

@OxShireWest Are you a Chester fan?

Nope - just a football fan.

Any true football fan would turn their nose up at the circus that is Wrexham.

 

[Big Ron]

Nope - just a football fan.

Any true football fan would turn their nose up at the circus that is Wrexham.

What a load of self-righteous, self-important tosh. You still seem remarkably engaged in your one man campaign, having previously expressed how 'bored' you were with the subject.

So, that must mean most of us are not 'true football' fans by your definition?