Championship West Ham

[Boris]

think this is a bit disengenuous, I'm sure it's true for a minority, but I imagine most saw it as a way of earning decent money for what they imagined was a pretty easy life.

That seems to me to be a very male view of the porn industry. It's a great way of men making themselves feel less guilty at consuming the products of an industry the very premise of which is the degradation and humiliation and objectifying of women.

Sure, there are probably some women who enter the industry eyes wide open and who are strong enough to forge their own direction in the face of predatory sharks like Sullivan, but (and I do have some inside knowledge of this) most of the women involved are vulnerable and easily led, often addicts or victims of abuse or mental instability. If you're female, it's really not a great career path

 

[Scotchegg]

You cannot surely think that questioning whether victims communicated they wanted it to stop clearly is "equally as bad" as raping someone. What a bonkers thing to say

I think that does who turn a blind eye towards sexual abuse, condone or excuse those who commit sexual offences, or those that create a culture where victims of sexual offences all create an environment for this to happen.

So yes, I do find this equally as bad.

 

[Carpy]

That seems to me to be a very male view of the porn industry. It's a great way of men making themselves feel less guilty at consuming the products of an industry the very premise of which is the degradation and humiliation and objectifying of women.

Sure, there are probably some women who enter the industry eyes wide open and who are strong enough to forge their own direction in the face of predatory sharks like Sullivan, but (and I do have some inside knowledge of this) most of the women involved are vulnerable and easily led, often addicts or victims of abuse or mental instability. If you're female, it's really not a great career path

Of course bud. Jesus christ, all those poor, weak women who are never able to make their own decisions due to the constant oppression they face from men. I must have imagined the massive rise in predominantly female influencers and OnlyFans models, I guess it was some over powering man who told them to do that?

 

[Scotchegg]

Of course bud. Jesus christ, all those poor, weak women who are never able to make their own decisions due to the constant oppression they face from men. I must have imagined the massive rise in predominantly female influencers and OnlyFans models, I guess it was some over powering man who told them to do that?

Victim blaming - great look!

 

[Marked Ox]

Of course bud. Jesus christ, all those poor, weak women who are never able to make their own decisions due to the constant oppression they face from men. I must have imagined the massive rise in predominantly female influencers and OnlyFans models, I guess it was some over powering man who told them to do that?

Influencers and Onlyfans were around when these claims allegedly happened?!

 

[holdsteady]

Quite a scope between a woman who sells pictures of herself for good money by her own choice and a woman on the street doing it to togetbuy drugs say, let alone all that falls between. Don't think you can really lump them all in together.

 

[Carpy]

Influencers and Onlyfans were around when these claims allegedly happened?!

Not talking about these claims anymore, @Boris was talking more generally from what I can tell and that was what I was responding to.

 

[Scotchegg]

It says so much about the state of this forum when bullying mods who banned people for no reason can abuse people looking to stand up for vulnerable victims of sexual or controlling offending.

Absolute disgrace but as always this will be push under the carpet whilst I'll probably be banned for having an opinion.

 

[Steve Gilbert]

I honestly couldn't give a single f**k what you think to be perfectly blunt.

Maybe time to look at getting a new mod @Northstandboy.

 

[Paul Cannell]

If @Carpy posted that he should not be a moderator.

Sullivan's background is massage parlours and prostitution, and it's safe to say pimping. The product in this world mostly enters it because of severe need, addiction or grooming and is working under duress, drugged and trafficked - claiming fortunes made from Only Fans makes being a prossie a good life is a pathetic fantasy.

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

Any man who gets prevented from having contact with his own women’s and kids teams for their safeguarding should not be allowed to own / any business let alone a football club especially under fit and proper rules.

 

[Mojofilter]

It looks like some of us could do with taking a few hours off this forum. I'd suggest coming back tonight to bash some of the international football and maybe re-engaging with this debate with clearer heads. I'm seeing entrenched positions and "gotcha" engaging with one another rather than any actual debate so you're only going to achieve frayed nerves at this stage.

 

[isibuko]

Porn exists in a wider patriarchal structure, and that's very clearly where the argument around 'some women do it freely' falls down.

 

[Marked Ox]

Not talking about these claims anymore, @Boris was talking more generally from what I can tell and that was what I was responding to.

Then I'll just say Andrew Tate and his brother here. They won't be unique either.

 

[Essexyellows]

I think that does who turn a blind eye towards sexual abuse, condone or excuse those who commit sexual offences, or those that create a culture where victims of sexual offences all create an environment for this to happen.

So yes, I do find this equally as bad.

1. Who said "turn a blind eye"?
2. Who said "excuse those who offend"?
3, Who said all the women involved in the porn industry are victims?

Nobody except you.

You have to accept that, over a period of time, some women have got into the soft/hard porn industry to earn good money and that can be anything from a few thousand for a photo shoot to an entire career based on sex.
Sam Fox - her net worth in 2024 was £20 million.
Katie Price - hit a peak of £40 million until it went a bit wrong.
Bonnie Blue - estimated to be between £5 mllion & £45 million (savvy with revenue streams)

And then there will be the other end of the scale with prostitution, exploitation, addiction etc .......... but to bundle all into one is a stretch even for you.

In the same way as offences may, or may not, occur.

 

[RgYellows]

If they didn`t ask him to stop it is not an offence.

Is that true? That can’t be true.

 

[Eric Blair]

Porn exists in a wider patriarchal structure, and that's very clearly where the argument around 'some women do it freely' falls down.

Not wanting to weigh in here too much but the above is an absolutely crucial point

 

[Wallop]

Maybe time to look at getting a new mod @Northstandboy.

I made a similar point and my post appears to have been removed. There is of course the chance that a technical glitch meant it didn't appear but that seems a little too convenient.

 

[Steve Gilbert]

I made a similar point and my post appears to have been removed. There is of course the chance that a technical glitch meant it didn't appear but that seems a little too convenient.

It seems your post and the original post have been deleted.

 

[Essexyellows]

Is that true? That can’t be true.

Poorly phrased I will admit........... if it was consensual there is no offence but anyone can say "No" at anytime.

 

[Essexyellows]

I made a similar point and my post appears to have been removed. There is of course the chance that a technical glitch meant it didn't appear but that seems a little too convenient.

It seems your post and the original post have been deleted.

They should have had me.............. no bans, no fuss, no abuse.

Plenty of circular debate but..........

 

[Paul Cannell]

Poorly phrased I will admit........... if it was consensual there is no offence but anyone can say "No" at anytime.

Lightening up a little, that's the sort of statement that sounds undeniable on the surface but is really not true.

A woman (or boy) who is alone, homeless (or under threat of homelessness), hungry, under extreme financial stress such as debt, being threatened (physically or e.g. blackmailed) may not be able to say 'no' because they see other way to make their situation better in their present. They may be foolish, negligent or stupid but in their life at that time it's not possible to say no.

It's funny that you consider yourself an epitome of practicality but in reality you talk like a theoretical idealist. Have a nice evening.

 

[Ewes]

Is that true? That can’t be true.

No. It’s not true. Consent means saying yes, ok or nodding, and being under no duress or pressure to do so. Someone not saying no does not necessarily mean consent was given.

 

[Jumpers4Goalposts]

Of course bud. Jesus christ, all those poor, weak women who are never able to make their own decisions due to the constant oppression they face from men. I must have imagined the massive rise in predominantly female influencers and OnlyFans models, I guess it was some over powering man who told them to do that?

There is some bang stupid arguments being made on this subject which has many many levels. I think the overriding opinion is that whichever side of this argument you are standing on we are pretty much all in agreement that what Sullivan is alleged to have done is wrong.

The expectations of what goes on in this industry from those who like a tug whilst reading (for want of a better word ) his publications is that whoever creates this stuff must be a bit of a wrong un. It’s one of those no smoke without fire things really.

But it’s out there anyway and the arguments will be that its very existence causes men to behave abominably towards women. Then there are those who think without it there would be more attacks on women.

Is it any surprise this has surfaced with Sullivan? The only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised by this.

The argument that OnlyFans models are not forced to do what they do is pretty valid. Porn may be an industry run predominantly by men but these girls have willingly walked through that door to exploit themselves for money.

So whilst I wholeheartedly agree with @Carpy and @Essexyellows I don’t think there is an easy way to sum up what Sullivan has actually done and whether women could have avoided it, said no and not got paid.

In this world where it is so easy to jump on the “sue the bastards” bandwagon my question is why has it taken so long to do so.

Every man and woman with an IQ above 10 knows that what he was doing must have been dodgy. There is no getting away from that.

Calling out a moderator for expressing his or her views is just wrong. It is also bullying.

 

[werthersoriginal]

There is some bang stupid arguments being made on this subject which has many many levels. I think the overriding opinion is that whichever side of this argument you are standing on we are pretty much all in agreement that what Sullivan is alleged to have done is wrong.

The expectations of what goes on in this industry from those who like a tug whilst reading (for want of a better word ) his publications is that whoever creates this stuff must be a bit of a wrong un. It’s one of those no smoke without fire things really.

But it’s out there anyway and the arguments will be that its very existence causes men to behave abominably towards women. Then there are those who think without it there would be more attacks on women.

Is it any surprise this has surfaced with Sullivan? The only thing that surprises me is that people are surprised by this.

The argument that OnlyFans models are not forced to do what they do is pretty valid. Porn may be an industry run predominantly by men but these girls have willingly walked through that door to exploit themselves for money.

So whilst I wholeheartedly agree with @Carpy and @Essexyellows I don’t think there is an easy way to sum up what Sullivan has actually done and whether women could have avoided it, said no and not got paid.

In this world where it is so easy to jump on the “sue the bastards” bandwagon my question is why has it taken so long to do so.

Every man and woman with an IQ above 10 knows that what he was doing must have been dodgy. There is no getting away from that.

Calling out a moderator for expressing his or her views is just wrong. It is also bullying.

You’re missing the point, I’m not sure whether it’s on purpose. These young women were looking for work as models on the Sport, which was tits out rather than real porn, and were pressured into having sex by a powerful older man in order to get work. Do you think that’s ok? Is that allowed where you work?

 

[Jumpers4Goalposts]

You’re missing the point, I’m not sure whether it’s on purpose. These young women were looking for work as models on the Sport, which was tits out rather than real porn, and were pressured into having sex by a powerful older man in order to get work. Do you think that’s ok? Is that allowed where you work?

I think you have just weakened your argument. These women have gone to an establishment where they KNOW that the proprietor is involved in porn. No I don’t think it is ok and no it wasn’t allowed where I worked.

But my question for you is this……
If a building was on fire and the fire brigade were nowhere to be seen would you willingly walk in through the front door ?

 

[chuckbert]

But my question for you is this……
If a building was on fire and the fire brigade were nowhere to be seen would you willingly walk in through the front door ?

If we’re talking facile vacuous analogies, how about if the area you were standing in was full of ravenous wolves and the only refuge was the building that was on fire?

 

[Paul Cannell]

Calling out a moderator for expressing his or her views is just wrong. It is also bullying.

I didn't 'call out' the former moderator for expressing his views, I called him out for using his position of authority to abuse a poster.

I am just an ordinary poster, he has been given authority to run the forum, he's the one bullying.

 

[werthersoriginal]

I think you have just weakened your argument. These women have gone to an establishment where they KNOW that the proprietor is involved in porn. No I don’t think it is ok and no it wasn’t allowed where I worked.

But my question for you is this……
If a building was on fire and the fire brigade were nowhere to be seen would you willingly walk in through the front door ?

Ah so they ‘asked for it’?

Sullivan will go to jail, though probably not for rape, but with conviction rates for sexual assaults at around 2.5% there are an awful lot of similar men who should be carted off in a police van too.

 

[Jumpers4Goalposts]

Ah so they ‘asked for it’?

Sullivan will go to jail, though probably not for rape, but with conviction rates for sexual assaults at around 2.5% there are an awful lot of similar men who should be carted off in a police van too.

Jesus Christ ! How obtuse can you be?
No they were not asking for it ! Where did I say that?

Yes they made a poor choice being employed by a complete low life but they didn’t ask for it. Every day we make choices. If we choose to cross the road without looking we might get hit by a bus. If we speed in our cars we might injure someone. If we smoke we may get cancer. If we eat too much we may give ourselves health problems later in life. If we go into a burning building we might get killed. If we go out into the hills without the correct gear we might need to be rescued.

I am not saying these women were asking for it but they chose to work in an environment which promotes sex. Everybody is looking for someone to blame when things go “tits up” if you will pardon the pun.

I think the issue with Sullivan is that even if he (hopefully) goes to jail he will be going in the knowledge that he will still have got away in life with more than he was ever charged with.

In a case like this he probably deserves a jury of 12 women and gets what is coming to him.