International News War Room: Iran v USA

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

All the far right that say they don't have a problem with migrants as long as they're here legally are lying. They're racists, pure and simple

The far right has become a vague term of the left to describe anyone they dont like mainly to try and silence a legitimate viewpoint. The far right isnt a threat look at the list of terrorist incidents in the UK those that actually happen there is a clear threat that disproportionately affects specific groups on a per capita basis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain

 

[SteMerritt]

The far right has become a vague term of the left to describe anyone they dont like mainly to try and silence a legitimate viewpoint.

The far left has become a vague term of the right to...

You get the rest. The extremes are as bad as eachother.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

You get the rest. The extremes are as bad as eachother.

While I certainly agree with that, I am not sure that the 'far left' is anywhere near as threatening to the country as the 'far right' is at the moment.

And yes, parties like Reform ARE 'far right' by anyone's standards.

 

[tonyw]

Well I would agree with that too just because a mouse lives in a warren doesn't make it a rabbit. Personally i don't believe you should be able to change nationality or citizenship you have the citizenship of your country of birth.

So you don't think, for example, that Boris Johnson is British? After all, he was born in New York and his family spent much of the first five years of his life in the US.

Personally, I think that birthright citizenship is a terrible idea that incentivizes all kinds of stupid behaviour (a lot of heavily pregnant women would be deciding to take trips in a world where that was the established norm), and trying to get rid of it is one of the few of Trump's new policy ideas that I would actually fully agree with (although of course he has ignore the constitutionally-mandated path to try and change it).

Personally, I would operate a world where citizenship could be obtained according to parentage or naturalization (as it is in Britain), but everyone would be treated as equal citizens including having that citizenship taken away if they did something sufficiently heinous (we're talking terrorism or treason-level heinous*). If everyone recognized citizenship as a privilege rather than a right conveyed by the accident of their birth, they might be a little more respectful of it, and less inclined to threaten to take it away from others that they view as beneath them.



(* or fraud - if you lie to get your citizenship, then yeah you can lose it for that as well; this is actually an order of magnitude more common than anti-terror denaturalization)

 

[Boris]

The rules of the UK society..... of which I and he are part so "our rules".

And yes there is a difference, a fact that cannot be changed.

He gained British citizenship, he was given something on the agreement he lived by our rules - he has chosen not to and a gift can be rescinded as easily as given.

The Neo-Nazi was born here and is a British citizen so hasn`t been given anything to rescind, so goes to prison for the requisite time scale for breaking "our" rules.

So therefore you presumably think that Shemima Begun, a British citizen who was born here, shouldn't have had her citizenship rescinded?

The son of a very good friend of mine - a white British citizen - was similarly led astray by Al Qaeda forces in Syria and spent several months in prison there in abhorrent conditions before he too had his British citizenship stripped and wasn't allowed to return to Oxford. Luckily his father was Canadian and they allowed him to move there. But according to you there was nothing to rescind, so how was that allowed to happen?

 

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

While I certainly agree with that, I am not sure that the 'far left' is anywhere near as threatening to the country as the 'far right' is at the moment.

And yes, parties like Reform ARE 'far right' by anyone's standards.

No the clear threat is islamic terrorism as demonstrated by the terrorist records accross europe in recent years. It is massively more threatening by orders of magnitudes when considering death and injury campared to far right terrorism.

 

[Followtheox1]

So therefore you presumably think that Shemima Begun, a British citizen who was born here, shouldn't have had her citizenship rescinded?

The son of a very good friend of mine - a white British citizen - was similarly led astray by Al Qaeda forces in Syria and spent several months in prison there in abhorrent conditions before he too had his British citizenship stripped and wasn't allowed to return to Oxford. Luckily his father was Canadian and they allowed him to move there. But according to you there was nothing to rescind, so how was that allowed to happen?

Jack chose to go and join IS, describing it as being lead astray makes it sounds like he was a ten year old trying a cigarette under peer pressure . Having said that i disagreed with his citizenship being stripped just because he was eligible for Canadian citizenship. Not fair on Canada, a close ally, for us to do that. I thought he was still imprisoned in Kurdistan?

 

[Mateo Corbo's Tackle]

A thread on the Iran war has been occupied by a debate on immigration. Maybe I’m stupid, but why?

 

[QR]

No the clear threat is islamic terrorism as demonstrated by the terrorist records accross europe in recent years. It is massively more threatening by orders of magnitudes when considering death and injury campared to far right terrorism.

If you exclude the far right Netanyahu. Oh and that Trump bloke.

 

[Toe knee]

My father is 91 years of age , he came to this country at 27. He's lived here longer than his own country of birth, he's still not British. Don't get some of your point's on this thread

 

[Mateo Corbo's Tackle]

No the clear threat is islamic terrorism as demonstrated by the terrorist records accross europe in recent years. It is massively more threatening by orders of magnitudes when considering death and injury campared to far right terrorism.

I condemn any terrorism or unprovoked killing of humans.

We live in a world. Part of that world is Europe, but there’s no point in looking at the picture unless we look at the bigger one.

Civilian deaths in Iraq war: c186,000
Civilian deaths in Gaza: c70,000

Civilian deaths in Islamic extremist attacks since 1979: 249,000

The reason why it’s “since 1979” is because Islamic extremism barely existed before 1979.

Based on the fact that every human life is equally important, I refute your claim that Islamic extremism is the biggest threat; it is not the biggest threat to the lives of people in the world in terms of magnitude (I’ve only included two offensives on a Muslim-majority nation here, and the numbers already don’t lie; there are many more), it is the US and Israel’s quest for oil and land domination (respectively), and in some cases other Western countries (like the UK), and their lapdog relationships with the aforementioned instigators, that is the greatest threat.
Not to mention the US’s indirect assistance in the formation of the extremist groups that carried out the atrocities…

 

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

If you exclude the far right Netanyahu. Oh and that Trump bloke.

I struggle to remember that last time either of them inflicted a terrorist attack on Europe let alone the UK.

On the other hand

Parliament to debate Iranian state-sponsored terrorism | 21-10-2024 | News | European Parliament

On Tuesday evening, MEPs and the Commission will discuss Iran’s state-sponsored terrorism in light of recent attacks in Europe.

www.europarl.europa.eu

 

[ZeroTheHero]

No the clear threat is islamic terrorism as demonstrated by the terrorist records accross europe in recent years. It is massively more threatening by orders of magnitudes when considering death and injury campared to far right terrorism.

I wasn't talking about terrorism. Terrorism in any form is of course totally awful (and I am sure you would agree) and nobody in their right mind would do anything other than condemn it.

I was talking about politics. The far right (the NF/BNP in suits) are far stronger in 'conventional' politics than the far left - and thus are more of a current threat to the British way of life (the real one, not an imagined golden age!) than them.

And who mentioned Islam? That is neither left nor right in the conventional sense is it?

 

[QR]

I struggle to remember that last time either of them inflicted a terrorist attack on Europe let alone the UK.

On the other hand

Parliament to debate Iranian state-sponsored terrorism | 21-10-2024 | News | European Parliament

On Tuesday evening, MEPs and the Commission will discuss Iran’s state-sponsored terrorism in light of recent attacks in Europe.

www.europarl.europa.eu

Are the inter-relationships really too complicated for you to get your head around?

 

[OUFCGav]

I struggle to remember that last time either of them inflicted a terrorist attack on Europe let alone the UK.

On the other hand

Parliament to debate Iranian state-sponsored terrorism | 21-10-2024 | News | European Parliament

On Tuesday evening, MEPs and the Commission will discuss Iran’s state-sponsored terrorism in light of recent attacks in Europe.

www.europarl.europa.eu

There have been a number of Mossad assassinations in UK, not officially recorded as terrorism, but that is semantics.

 

[Followtheox1]

I condemn any terrorism or unprovoked killing of humans.

We live in a world. Part of that world is Europe, but there’s no point in looking at the picture unless we look at the bigger one.

Civilian deaths in Iraq war: c186,000
Civilian deaths in Gaza: c70,000

Civilian deaths in Islamic extremist attacks since 1979: 249,000

The reason why it’s “since 1979” is because Islamic extremism barely existed before 1979.

Based on the fact that every human life is equally important, I refute your claim that Islamic extremism is the biggest threat; it is not the biggest threat to the lives of people in the world in terms of magnitude (I’ve only included two offensives on a Muslim-majority nation here, and the numbers already don’t lie; there are many more), it is the US and Israel’s quest for oil and land domination (respectively), and in some cases other Western countries (like the UK), and their lapdog relationships with the aforementioned instigators, that is the greatest threat.
Not to mention the US’s indirect assistance in the formation of the extremist groups that carried out the atrocities…

It is not as straight foward as that in terms of biggest global threats..Notwithstanding I don't disagree with you regarding the impact of US and Western Imperialism..Some estimates put the death toll at hundreds of thousands and millions displaced in the genocide being driven by the UAE and its arab militias in Sudan...over a hundred thousand killed by Syrian authorities...While I know the left (I am left leaning) don't really protest against, for example, what is happening in Sudan or the genocide in 2010 in Sri Lanka, these atrocities plus other countries imperialism (Russia) demonstrate that it is not as simple to just say Western Imperialism is the biggest global threat..

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

Kind of answered the nationality aspect yourself.

As for stabbing people the justice system is far to soft on knife crime which is why it is so problematic across the country.

In my world you get a straight 5 years for carrying without due cause and 10 years if you use it in anyway, slotting into the sentencing tariffs below GBH/Attempted Murder or murder.

So my wife was born out side of the Uk
Even though it states where she was born is outside of the UK she has British nationality. Are you suggesting that this is something that should be able to be removed?

 

[chuckbert]

i don't believe you should be able to change nationality or citizenship you have the citizenship of your country of birth.

That's just not practicable.
What happens if you move to another country and then have a child. Your child has citizenship and you don't (because you can't). You end up in a position where your visa is revoked (doesn't have to be crime, could be being out of work etc), so you are deported. Your child is then forced to move from their birth country to another country where they can't become a citizen. Ditto married couples. It would be total madness.

 

[QR]

Personally i don't believe you should be able to change nationality or citizenship you have the citizenship of your country of birth.

I suppose the upside would have been that Johnson would never have been PM.

 

[Essexyellows]

So therefore you presumably think that Shemima Begun, a British citizen who was born here, shouldn't have had her citizenship rescinded?

The son of a very good friend of mine - a white British citizen - was similarly led astray by Al Qaeda forces in Syria and spent several months in prison there in abhorrent conditions before he too had his British citizenship stripped and wasn't allowed to return to Oxford. Luckily his father was Canadian and they allowed him to move there. But according to you there was nothing to rescind, so how was that allowed to happen?

Its a simple process -

You come here and commit serious criminality then you forfeit your right to enjoy a peaceful life in the UK.

Likewise you go somewhere else and do the same you forfeit your right to come back to the protection offered by the UK.

I`m not sure "led astray" really covers conversion to Islam and signing up for IS, although I can understand why his parents tried to help him out.
Sadly we solved our problem by dumping him on Canada when remaining a guest of the Kurds was probably more appropriate.

Back on track..............the Golders Green attacker, Essa Suleiman, was jailed in 2008 for stabbing a police officer and his dog in Swindon.
He was sentenced to nine years for grievous bodily harm and served at least half of that term.

If his citizenship had been revoked then and he was living in Somalia this conversation wouldn`t be happening and two folk wouldn`t have been stabbed.

 

[Matty Greens Left Boot]

I suppose the upside would have been that Johnson would never have been PM.

I wish!

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

Its a simple process -

You come here and commit serious criminality then you forfeit your right to enjoy a peaceful life in the UK.

Likewise you go somewhere else and do the same you forfeit your right to come back to the protection offered by the UK.

I`m not sure "led astray" really covers conversion to Islam and signing up for IS, although I can understand why his parents tried to help him out.
Sadly we solved our problem by dumping him on Canada when remaining a guest of the Kurds was probably more appropriate.

Back on track..............the Golders Green attacker, Essa Suleiman, was jailed in 2008 for stabbing a police officer and his dog in Swindon.
He was sentenced to nine years for grievous bodily harm and served at least half of that term.

If his citizenship had been revoked then and he was living in Somalia this conversation wouldn`t be happening and two folk wouldn`t have been stabbed.

So what happens if you’re born here and commit a terrible crime.

What happens if someone from here commits a crime somewhere else and gets sent here? If they commit a murder for example and then get sent here what punishment should they get when they arrive? How would they be tried?

Do you think that there is a mental health issue with this guy? Why was he released if he wasn’t well?

 

[Essexyellows]

So what happens if you’re born here and commit a terrible crime.

What happens if someone from here commits a crime somewhere else and gets sent here? If they commit a murder for example and then get sent here what punishment should they get when they arrive? How would they be tried?

Do you think that there is a mental health issue with this guy? Why was he released if he wasn’t well?

1. Prison.

2. Serve the sentence issued by the country they offended in .... if we take them back.

3. Spare me the "mental health issue". He seemingly stabs people & animals for fun. He was released because he served half his sentence and was deemed "safe to release". Likely conned the system or took advantage of a system under pressure.

And then there is the religious ideology fed by a book that, if interpreted in the way an extremist would, encourages the killing of non-believers, specifically Jews.*

*in the same way versions of the Bible go the other way.

 

[Marston Road Yellow]

1. Prison.

2. Serve the sentence issued by the country they offended in .... if we take them back.

3. Spare me the "mental health issue". He seemingly stabs people & animals for fun. He was released because he served half his sentence and was deemed "safe to release". Likely conned the system or took advantage of a system under pressure.

And then there is the religious ideology fed by a book that, if interpreted in the way an extremist would, encourages the killing of non-believers, specifically Jews.*

*in the same way versions of the Bible go the other way.

Sorry spare you the mental heath issue? Are you serious. You don’t consider someone stabling animals and humans as having mental health issues????

Gotta love a Tory still defending the obscenity of care in the community, then whinging when someone gets stabbed by someone who should never have been left to rot in the community.

 

[Mateo Corbo's Tackle]

It is not as straight foward as that in terms of biggest global threats..Notwithstanding I don't disagree with you regarding the impact of US and Western Imperialism..Some estimates put the death toll at hundreds of thousands and millions displaced in the genocide being driven by the UAE and its arab militias in Sudan...over a hundred thousand killed by Syrian authorities...While I know the left (I am left leaning) don't really protest against, for example, what is happening in Sudan or the genocide in 2010 in Sri Lanka, these atrocities plus other countries imperialism (Russia) demonstrate that it is not as simple to just say Western Imperialism is the biggest global threat..

Very fair points.

 

[Essexyellows]

Sorry spare you the mental heath issue? Are you serious. You don’t consider someone stabling animals and humans as having mental health issues????

Gotta love a Tory still defending the obscenity of care in the community, then whinging when someone gets stabbed by someone who should never have been left to rot in the community.

No he is a convicted criminal with premeditated habit of stabbing people driven by a religious ideology.

Valid second point, lets get back to asylums and start locking these people away some where secure before they try killing innocent people.

 

[Toe knee]

You got more kicks off the old bill in the old days,in the London Road ...Woke Britain....