National News This Green Plan.....

Essexyellows

Well-known member
Joined
7 Dec 2017
Messages
17,133
Sorry but if anyone thinks electric vehicles are the answer they are officially bonkers.
If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:

• 207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
• 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three quarters of the world’s production;
• at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium nearly the entire world production of neodymium;
• 2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.

And this is just for the UK. It is estimated that the manufacturing capacity for EV batteries would have to increase more than 500-fold if we want the whole world to be transported by electric vehicles. The vast increases in the supply of the materials described above would go far beyond known reserves.

Source: https://www.thegwpf.org/new-paper-decarbonisation-plans-fail-engineering-reality-check/

Lets use "good energy" like wind.......................

When the turbines reach the end of their life of 20 years they need replacing, but the blades are so tough and resilient we can`t get rid of them so they are burying them in Iowa...
1605715612362.png

Planting 30,000 hectares of tree`s every year? So take up UK farming land and displace the problem to South America and keep importing cheap food while the Amazon is cleared?

Princess Nut Nut has certainly influenced that one...
 
Sorry but if anyone thinks electric vehicles are the answer they are officially bonkers.
If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:

• 207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
• 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three quarters of the world’s production;
• at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium nearly the entire world production of neodymium;
• 2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.

And this is just for the UK. It is estimated that the manufacturing capacity for EV batteries would have to increase more than 500-fold if we want the whole world to be transported by electric vehicles. The vast increases in the supply of the materials described above would go far beyond known reserves.

Source: https://www.thegwpf.org/new-paper-decarbonisation-plans-fail-engineering-reality-check/

Lets use "good energy" like wind.......................

When the turbines reach the end of their life of 20 years they need replacing, but the blades are so tough and resilient we can`t get rid of them so they are burying them in Iowa...
View attachment 4990

Planting 30,000 hectares of tree`s every year? So take up UK farming land and displace the problem to South America and keep importing cheap food while the Amazon is cleared?

Princess Nut Nut has certainly influenced that one...

Not looked into it, but is the government plan to be only fully electric vehicles (EV) sold, or the more likely they can be partial electric (PHEV MHEV etc)?

And, for which type of vehicle is your data based on?
 
Not looked into it, but is the government plan to be only fully electric vehicles (EV) sold, or the more likely they can be partial electric (PHEV MHEV etc)?

And, for which type of vehicle is your data based on?
Personal/domestic vehicles only.
No petrol/diesel only to be sold after 2030 only pure EV or hybrid.
Probably a better link to the wider issues created here: https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2020/05/KellyDecarb-1.pdf

Personally no issues as I only tend to get the 4 x 4 gas guzzler out at weekends for practical purposes.
WFH, Walk or bus to work so minimal impact on me.
 
If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:

• 207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
• 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three quarters of the world’s production;
• at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium nearly the entire world production of neodymium;
• 2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.
Or you could use hydrogen power cells, graphine, zinc batteries... Or maybe something that hasn't been invented yet...

BUT, I'm pretty much agreeing with you, the deadline is bonkers, and it strikes me a Johnson announcing something just to change the current press narratives, knowing he can announce these tough targets knowing he won't be in charge when the time comes to implement them.
 
BMW were looking at hydrogen when I looked at Cowley all the way back in the early noughties and they seem to have got nowhere, they are not the only car firm to have tried either.

Electric seems to be the only alternative to petrol/diesel to have got any traction, even if the benefits are not exactly huge and it’s still impractical for the vast majority.

It wont be enforced in 10 years will it, Johnson won’t be in power so he doesn’t care about what actually happens then, just wanted some good headlines today.
 
The concern (for me anyway) with cobalt mining is the rather substantial human rights violations including child and forced labour in places like the DRC where armed groups control some of the mines.

To rapidly expand to meet demand would lead to even more issues than there already are (a little like we’ve seen in Asia over the last 50 years).

I know Amnesty International and a number of other organisations have investigated fairly extensively the human cost of cobalt mining in the automotive industry, it’s one of the reasons a number of them are getting so twitchy.

I’m all for it and hope we have an environmentally sustainable society for my son to grow up in for many years to come, however, it should not be to the detriment of others or the environment in other far flung places these minerals are found.
 
Sorry but if anyone thinks electric vehicles are the answer they are officially bonkers.
If we replace all of the UK vehicle fleet with EVs, and assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation batteries, we would need the following materials:

• 207,900 tonnes of cobalt – just under twice the annual global production;
• 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate – three quarters of the world’s production;
• at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium nearly the entire world production of neodymium;
• 2,362,500 tonnes of copper – more than half the world’s production in 2018.

And this is just for the UK. It is estimated that the manufacturing capacity for EV batteries would have to increase more than 500-fold if we want the whole world to be transported by electric vehicles. The vast increases in the supply of the materials described above would go far beyond known reserves.

Source: https://www.thegwpf.org/new-paper-decarbonisation-plans-fail-engineering-reality-check/

Lets use "good energy" like wind.......................

When the turbines reach the end of their life of 20 years they need replacing, but the blades are so tough and resilient we can`t get rid of them so they are burying them in Iowa...
View attachment 4990

Planting 30,000 hectares of tree`s every year? So take up UK farming land and displace the problem to South America and keep importing cheap food while the Amazon is cleared?

Princess Nut Nut has certainly influenced that one...

Time to invest in mineral mines EY 😉
 
The ban from 2030 is for new cars “wholly” fuelled by petrol or diesel.
So hybrid will be fine to purchase until 2035 .
Petrol & diesel will probably still be on our roads, well into the 2040’s.
 
Last edited:
If electric cars are going to be the only option, it’d be good to know what the plan is for existing cars on the road.
Not many people can afford hybrid let alone electric. Is there some grand plan to scrap diesel and electric cars that get to five or ten years old? Not sure how much they could be recycled.
As someone approaching retirement I’m contemplating a Volvo V40 with the objective of driving it until it is no longer viable. Having said that it would be nice to be able to drive a TESLR into the city centre and park it for free
 
If electric cars are going to be the only option, it’d be good to know what the plan is for existing cars on the road.
Not many people can afford hybrid let alone electric. Is there some grand plan to scrap diesel and electric cars that get to five or ten years old? Not sure how much they could be recycled.
As someone approaching retirement I’m contemplating a Volvo V40 with the objective of driving it until it is no longer viable. Having said that it would be nice to be able to drive a TESLR into the city centre and park it for free
Hybrid cars will still be for sale after 2030, it's just pure diesel/petrol driven that won't be. I'm also sure there will be some inducements to take petrol/diesel cars off the road in the form of a scrappage scheme (either manufacturer or govt led) and probably grants available to try and bring down the eyewatering cost of a new electric/hybrid vehicle.

A govt scrappage scheme was done once before where people with cars over 10 (I think?) years old were given an incentive to buy a new one, which amounted to several thousand pounds off the list price. The reasoning behind it was that new cars = lower emissions = less CO, CO2, particulates (diesels) and NOx being pumped into the environment. Critics of this pointed out that perfectly useable cars, some with relatively low emission profiles were simply being scrapped, rather than re-used. Not to mention the fact that there was a certain amount of fraud and "leakage" in said system with a fair number of supposedly scrapped cars re-appearing in Eastern Europe and Africa, rather than being taken out of circulation as the scheme intended.

With regard to recylcablility of cars, the EU (god bless 'em) End of Life Vehicle Directive requires that 95% of the materials w/w of every qualifying vehicle are recovered, recycled or re-used. Similar levels apply to materials used in manufacture of new vehicles. In the UK each vehicle that is scrapped is issued with the Certificate of Destruction which can only be issued the DVLA and only when the vehicle has been through a permitted vehicle dismantling facility. It is ultimately the responsibility of each vehicle manufacturer to make sure they comply with the requirements both in terms of manufacture and recycling. Ironically, there are bigger challenges with recycling/recovering batteries from electirc/hybrid vehicles and composite panels used in manufacturing than with traditionally fuelled/built cars. The technology exists, but there are few examples of economically viable models.

Clearly the drive (pardon the pun) is all about reducing overall emissions from vehicles which are our biggest source of pollution. Old and poorly maintained cars, along with people who drive like their in a constant race and think ragging their car is cool, contribute disproportionately to this. I'll brush over the official emissions testing schemes and data that manufacturers push out from it....not to mention that the green credentials of some hybrids aren't all their cracked up to be either!

The announcement of the end of new petrol/diesel sales is probably going to see prices come down as manufacturers will want to shift stock. Will electric come down....who knows...presumably there will be an economy of scale in manufacture, BUT as EY points out, there are some pretty rare earth materials that are going into their (and electrical devices generally) manufacture, so scarcity or lack of security in supply will affect what the consumer pays.

If only we had a proper integrated public transport infrastructure and people could wean themselves off their car addiction.

I wonder how long it will be before everyone has a carbon budget you have to stay within? You pay penalties if you exceed it and get credits if significantly below it!
 
I wonder how long it will be before everyone has a carbon budget you have to stay within? You pay penalties if you exceed it and get credits if significantly below it!
Hopefully never, as I think it would disproportionately impact the poor, who are more likely to have an older car, less energy-efficient homes, older heating systems etc...
 
Like so many developments, when you have the will to achieve something and a deadline to accomplish it, then a way is found - the moon landings being a prime example.

Now transforming electric vehicles such that they offer the same personal freedoms as our existing gas-guzzlers will require much work and innovation and I don't think for one minute that the UK's (not quite unilateral) declaration will see the demise of fossil fuelled vehicles in ten years. For that we will need the type of global effort that has been seen with the development of covid vaccines - but when that time comes, the advances will follow.
 
Hopefully never, as I think it would disproportionately impact the poor, who are more likely to have an older car, less energy-efficient homes, older heating systems etc...
Unless those who are disproportionately impacted also receive "disproportionate" assistance to have less impact?

While being "green" and reducing impact on the planet remains a choice left to those who can afford it (and are willing), nothing is going to change is it!
 
Unless those who are disproportionately impacted also receive "disproportionate" assistance to have less impact?

While being "green" and reducing impact on the planet remains a choice left to those who can afford it (and are willing), nothing is going to change is it!
Which of course is fair comment. There needs to be a drive from everyone to improve, or it's doomed to failure.
 
It will take years to build up a charging network, the biggest drawbacks will be the cost of the cars and unless a hybrid the range,
 
Back
Top Bottom