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The Holocaust

Shocking too that the BBC only mention Jewish victims when the Holocaust memorial site described Nazi persecution as:

"Nazi beliefs categorised people by race, and Hitler used the word ‘Aryan’ for his idea of a ‘pure German race’. The Nazis believed Aryan people were superior to all others. Their devotion to what they believed was racial purity and their opposition to racial mixing partly explains their hatred towards Jews, Roma and Sinti people (sometimes referred to as ‘Gypsies’) and black people. Slavic people, such as those from Poland and Russia, were considered inferior and were targeted because they lived in areas needed for German expansion.

The Nazis wanted to ‘improve’ the genetic make-up of the population and so persecuted people they deemed to be disabled, either mentally or physically, as well as gay people. Political opponents, primarily communists, trade unionists and social democrats, as well as those whose religious beliefs conflicted with Nazi ideology, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, were also targeted for persecution."
 
PC said:
Shocking too that the BBC only mention Jewish victims when the Holocaust memorial site described Nazi persecution as:

"Nazi beliefs categorised people by race, and Hitler used the word ‘Aryan’ for his idea of a ‘pure German race’. The Nazis believed Aryan people were superior to all others. Their devotion to what they believed was racial purity and their opposition to racial mixing partly explains their hatred towards Jews, Roma and Sinti people (sometimes referred to as ‘Gypsies’) and black people. Slavic people, such as those from Poland and Russia, were considered inferior and were targeted because they lived in areas needed for German expansion.

The Nazis wanted to ‘improve’ the genetic make-up of the population and so persecuted people they deemed to be disabled, either mentally or physically, as well as gay people. Political opponents, primarily communists, trade unionists and social democrats, as well as those whose religious beliefs conflicted with Nazi ideology, such as Jehovah’s Witnesses, were also targeted for persecution."
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Totally agree.
 
Sadly, conspiracy theories have gained more traction due to social media so nutters can shout down actual evidence. Coupled with it falling out of recent history so not at the forefront means it can be obfuscated by those conspiracy theorists and those with an agenda.

Humans/society seem to go through a cycle of making the same mistakes again and again.
 
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They surveyed 2,000 people and extrapolated the result to the entire population.
There is no evidence of the breakdown of those surveyed to show any kind of balance, social class etc etc.
In turn that makes for a headline that doesn`t reflect reality.
 
‘Holocaust denial’ can be a wide spectrum. You have the totally bonkers nutters akin to Young Earth Creationists and flat-earthers who say it didn’t happen despite the mountains of evidence to those who undermine it little by little to push a political and anti-Semitic agenda. They’ll question the number of deaths in the camps, cite no direct order nor physical evidence linking Hitler to ordering the killing of Jews and those the Nazis determined as undesirable and refute the evidence that there were gas champers and crematoria at the camps. It’s ‘history of the gaps’ argument but ultimately a straw man – ‘the historical record cannot explain/has no evidence for X, Y and Z therefore A could not have happened’.

I’m with @Essexyellows on this. Who were they asking and what were the questions? 2000 people clicking through an online survey to gather a £5 Amazon voucher or something similar is going to yield unreliable results. I wouldn’t read a lot into it.

That said, with more time passing and fewer survivors (or perpetrators) left to tell the tales from those years, it’s important to log their words and learn from them. We tend to trivialise the events of the past when there’s no one left who can speak about it. The Armenian genocide is a prime example and with enough time passing, Turkey’s refusal to acknowledge it becomes less severe. It can be explained away as something that happened ‘long ago’ and ‘it was a different time’.

In fact, the sagest quote about the Holocaust I’ve heard and supposedly utter by Dwight D. Eisenhower was ‘Get it all on record now - get the films - get the witnesses - because somewhere down the road of history some bastard will get up and say that this never happened.’
 
The only thing that i question is,why do some countrys make Holocaust denial a criminal offence punishable by imprisonment?? where's the problem in asking questions?? it was wartime and misinformation was rife and things like this were exagerated to get more people onside ......the Japanese told their people for example that the Yanks would eat them if they surrendered, some commited suicide rather than get captured............ if you're going to make asking questions illegal then i can see why some will question wether theres a few lies out there that someone wants to cover up????
 
cassox said:
The only thing that i question is,why do some countrys make Holocaust denial a criminal offence punishable by imprisonment?? where's the problem in asking questions?? it was wartime and misinformation was rife and things like this were exagerated to get more people onside ......the Japanese told their people for example that the Yanks would eat them if they surrendered, some commited suicide rather than get captured............ if you're going to make asking questions illegal then i can see why some will question wether theres a few lies out there that someone wants to cover up????
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Errm, you want to run that past us one more time? What are you talking about?

"It was wartime"
"wether theres a few lies out there that someone wants to cover up????" (sic)

I think possibly you missed history as well as English language. Denial is not the same as asking questions.
 
Manorlounger said:
Errm, you want to run that past us one more time? What are you talking about?

"It was wartime"
"wether theres a few lies out there that someone wants to cover up????" (sic)

I think possibly you missed history as well as English language. Denial is not the same as asking questions.
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Why should it be an offence punishable by imprisonment to say you think it never happened or the numbers were exagerated??
And if you don't understand what i am saying maybe you skipped English a few too many times ;)
 
If anybody has ever been to Auschwitz, the aura that hangs over the entire place would tell you everything you ever needed to know. Even the most elaborate stage set ever constructed, which it would have to be to look the way that it does even on a purely physical level, could never recreate the atmosphere. Not in a million years.

If anybody doubts the truthfulness of the holocaust, I would suggest they go there and experience it for themselves. Even the most stubborn and moronic bigot wouldn’t be able to stick to their story after doing so.

Honestly, however chaotic and downright insane the world seems to be in 2019, matters such as this really shouldn’t still be a thing. We should be so far beyond this by now.
 
RyanioBirdio said:
If anybody has ever been to Auschwitz, the aura that hangs over the entire place would tell you everything you ever needed to know. Even the most elaborate stage set ever constructed, which it would have to be to look the way that it does even on a purely physical level, could never recreate the atmosphere. Not in a million years.

If anybody doubts the truthfulness of the holocaust, I would suggest they go there and experience it for themselves. Even the most stubborn and moronic bigot wouldn’t be able to stick to their story after doing so.

Honestly, however chaotic and downright insane the world seems to be in 2019, matters such as this really shouldn’t still be a thing. We should be so far beyond this by now.
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A couple of my friends have been to Auschwitz and said it was one of the creepiest places they've ever been. Without looking through any exhibits, the vibe felt off and did not get any better once you've spent time there. It was summed up as, anyone that doesn't believe the Holocaust happened needs to get their head examined. And I'm never going back there again
 
I find it sad/frustrating/annoying that denial of history is becoming a "thing".
Take down statues of Rhodes, Washington etc etc and "cleanse" history............... no leave them there and learn from what we have done wrong in the past.
 
cassox said:
Why should it be an offence punishable by imprisonment to say you think it never happened or the numbers were exagerated??
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Because (unlike conspiracy theory drivel about the moon landings) dening the Holocaust is done very deliberately as a way of the extreme right somehow trying to persuade people that the 'Nazis weren't that bad' and thus encouraging neo-Nazism. It is also peddled as part of the 'Jewish banking/world order' myth - so it's racist. And it also denigrates all the other people the Nazis thought 'degenerate' who were exterminated in the same way.

Of course only complete buffoons and those with an agenda would even consider such stupidity, wouldn't they?
 
Lodz in Poland has a number of holocaust connections which are on going in becoming extensions of thier holocaust museum.... lodz had the second largest enforcedJewish ghetto . ... two of the most sobering sights are a number of preserved open graves dug by prisoners awaiting transportation to Auschwitz who were instead set to be executed there lodz was liberated before those executions were carried out. Also an empty cattle truck on a railway siding waiting to take its cargo to Auschwitz is equally a sobering view
 
ZeroTheHero said:
Because (unlike conspiracy theory drivel about the moon landings) dening the Holocaust is done very deliberately as a way of the extreme right somehow trying to persuade people that the 'Nazis weren't that bad' and thus encouraging neo-Nazism. It is also peddled as part of the 'Jewish banking/world order' myth - so it's racist. And it also denigrates all the other people the Nazis thought 'degenerate' who were exterminated in the same way.

Of course only complete buffoons and those with an agenda would even consider such stupidity, wouldn't they?
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To be fair, the Far Left have joined in as well now, due to the de rigueur anti-semitism that has crept in over the past few years. All the cool far left activists seem to have a level dislike of Jews (randomly).

Whoever they are, they are complete idiots.

I see some flat earthers are doing a cruise to the edge this year, and I wonder where they will end up and what excuses they will come up with when they do.
 
I don't want to keep arguing with you - but while there are certainly left wing anti-Semites I haven't seen any left-wing Holocaust deniers (which is what we were talking about). Of course if there are some then they are equally loopy - but in general it IS the rabid right that has this problem. And there is some attempt to link anti-Semitism with criticising the Israeli state - the two are not the same thing at all.
 
Pete Burrett said:
What could the motive be for suggesting the numbers killed in the holocaust have been exaggerated? If the correct number were four million, would that make it more acceptable and the Nazi regime somehow not quite as bad as we thought?

The Nazis were very good at keeping accurate records about everything, and they helpfully recorded the numbers transported to death camps and subsequently killed. Their attempts to shred records as Allied forces approached were unsuccessful.

As for denying the holocaust in its entirety, the only possible motive, given the masses of evidence to the contrary, can be a desire to portray Nazism in a more positive light.
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It’s done to undermine the Jewish community today and to feed into the ‘NWO’ political narrative.

Essentially it boils down to ‘If 6-7 million really died, why are there so many Jews alive in Europe today? It’s impossible that so many supposedly died but the population has remained steady in Europe.’ Of course, it’s a preposterous argument to put forward (based on a lie and manipulation of population data too) as there were many European Jews who escaped and emigrated and communities who returned after the war and the population swelled again during the baby boom years, but they use it as a tactic to again show that Nazi Germany wasn’t as bad as made out.

Not outright denial as such but the more covert ‘historical revisionism’. In fact, there is a very dressed up journal published by the Institute for Historical Review that focuses on ‘historical revisionism’ of the Holocaust. To the untrained, it looks like a proper academic journal which is exactly what they want you to believe. By making questioning of the Holocaust an academic exercise, it makes questioning the Holocaust a form of legitimate history. It’s a very dangerous publication and thankfully no decent academic will go near it nor debate with those who contribute to it.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
I don't want to keep arguing with you - but while there are certainly left wing anti-Semites I haven't seen any left-wing Holocaust deniers (which is what we were talking about). Of course if there are some then they are equally loopy - but in general it IS the rabid right that has this problem. And there is some attempt to link anti-Semitism with criticising the Israeli state - the two are not the same thing at all.
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My only point is both sides now have idiots who have beliefs that were once just the home turf the Far Right. That is a general high level point deliberately not targeted at anyone or any entity, and I'll leave it at that.
 
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