General The Board & Senior Management

You are correct that we are the only club currently under embargo for this breach.

While both issues are not acceptable, I think not paying your staff on time is more serious.

Any comments on my other points?

You’re missing the point. Not providing the funds to pay the staff is not the responsibility of the employed, day to day staff at Sheffield Wednesday. If the funds are not made available by the OWNER then they can’t be paid.

However, it is not the OWNER’s responsibility to ensure admin tasks by the day to day staff at OUFC, are completed on time, is it?

Your examples are of two completely different things.

Other than that, personally I appreciate your volunteering past and present and I hope that OxVox are able to decipher between being a critical friend to the club, and a mouth piece.
 
You’re missing the point. Not providing the funds to pay the staff is not the responsibility of the employed, day to day staff at Sheffield Wednesday. If the funds are not made available by the OWNER then they can’t be paid.

However, it is not the OWNER’s responsibility to ensure admin tasks by the day to day staff at OUFC, are completed on time, is it?

Your examples are of two completely different things.

Other than that, personally I appreciate your volunteering past and present and I hope that OxVox are able to decipher between being a critical friend to the club, and a mouth piece.
I don't think I'm missing the point. My examples are of how clubs are being run, and Sheffield Wednesday's owner is quite hands on, but we can agree to disagree on that.

Having seen the work done from the inside, I can assure you that OxVox has been, and continues to be a critical friend to the club. That they don't do this in a blaze of publicity doesn't mean it's not being done.
 
I don't think I'm missing the point. My examples are of how clubs are being run, and Sheffield Wednesday's owner is quite hands on, but we can agree to disagree on that.

Having seen the work done from the inside, I can assure you that OxVox has been, and continues to be a critical friend to the club. That they don't do this in a blaze of publicity doesn't mean it's not being done.

Quite hands on? Does he file their EFL requirements, then?
 
No. You're right.

He's a brilliant owner and everything at Sheffield Wednesday is going perfectly. (y)

I don’t want to get into a slanging match with you on this, as I’ve said I appreciate the volunteering and hours that go in.

That said, if you and others are using Sheffield Wednesday as a bar to which we should aspire in the backroom, then it makes me very nervous.

The owner there is nothing like what we seem to have in place. We are very fortunate.

The fact is though that we have dropped the ball, again and no amount of unparalleled examples by you or other OxVox reps will change that. What the owner does with the financing at Sheff Weds is nothing like the same thing that has happened here with the EFL, twice,
 
No. You're right.

He's a brilliant owner and everything at Sheffield Wednesday is going perfectly. (y)

If Sheffield Wednesday have a crackpot owner does that mean Oxford United don't have to fulfil the obligations of an EFL club? What has that got to with the serious admin errors that have got us in trouble twice now?
 
I don’t want to get into a slanging match with you on this, as I’ve said I appreciate the volunteering and hours that go in.

That said, if you and others are using Sheffield Wednesday as a bar to which we should aspire in the backroom, then it makes me very nervous.

The owner there is nothing like what we seem to have in place. We are very fortunate.

The fact is though that we have dropped the ball, again and no amount of unparalleled examples by you or other OxVox reps will change that. What the owner does with the financing at Sheff Weds is nothing like the same thing that has happened here with the EFL, twice,
I was attempting some humour, but it's tricky when it's just words written down without any kind of ability to add tone of voice or facial expression... ;)

Regarding the volunteering, as I said it's not done for praise, but because we all want what is best for the club, but when things are posted that are simply not true then it's a bit annoying. I remember someone posting that they thought the reason Paul Person wasn't being critical enough of the club (in their opinion) was that he wanted the contract to build the stadium. Utter nonsense of course, but quite a serious allegation, but they still posted it.

My point, which I think is valid, is that we aren't some basket case of a club, where nothing is being done correctly. There was a mistake with the loan payments for one player, and now this issue with late filing of two pieces of accounting paperwork. They aren't "the same thing that has happened here with the EFL, twice". Neither is acceptable, but nor is it proof of incompetence throughout those working day-to-day at the club.

There was a post which said something like "these are the only issues we know about". Obviously the same could be said about every football club, which takes me back to my original point, that we look at ourself in isolation (understandable as I've no real interest in what some League 2 club might be doing or not doing) and seem to believe that we are the only club that's making any kind of mistakes.
 
Sorry @SiHath but what you are doing here, on this thread, is exactly what Paul Peros did on Radio Oxford on Saturday.

Deflection, deflection, deflection.

The club fucked up again. Don't excuse it by drawing unrelated parallels, as that lets them off the hook. As does trying to protect a supporters trust that appears toothless to those looking in.

But, I'll say it again, while we're all arguing about the merits, or not, of the OxVox hierarchy, the club management will be delighted by the brown stuff getting deflected away from them.
 
I would hazard a guess that the admin staff have been quietly chastised by the owners for the wrongdoings, after all £40 mil is a lot of investment to loose !
 
I would hazard a guess that the admin staff have been quietly chastised by the owners for the wrongdoings, after all £40 mil is a lot of investment to loose !
I think some fans are hoping for members of the club hierarchy to be in stocks set up outside the turnstiles with a bucket of rotten tomatoes on hand.

Where did I put my pitchfork?
 
I don’t think it would be “grandstanding” or looking for “brownie points” to have said something that wasn’t outright praising the club for apparently handling the situation so well, or to have chalked it up as something other than one of those things that happens to a “growing business”. There is a pretty large middle ground between going for the club’s throat and applauding them and saying it’s ultimately a non-story, which is very much how it came across on WATG.

Everybody understands this is a crucial period for the club, both on and off the pitch, and that is exactly why the club continually being run so sloppily on an administrative level is such a concern, and why it was so deeply worrying to hear the trust’s stance being presented as somewhere between a shrug of the shoulders and a pat on the back. We’re under a second embargo in less than a year because the club seemingly can’t do the most basic of things correctly, when literally every other club in the entire EFL can. It isn’t good enough, so to hear very prominent figures within the media and fanbase appearing to actively excuse and defend them at the weekend was really concerning.

As a brief aside, this isn’t the first time there have been implications that anybody who is unhappy with OxVox shouldn’t say as much publicly. I think it’s perfectly reasonable for public comments to be discussed in an equally public environment. People can speak their minds however and wherever they like, frankly. Furthermore, most people very much appreciate anybody who gives up their time for a good cause, of which OxVox is undoubtedly one (in principle), but that doesn’t carry immunity from criticism. There are plenty of ex-committee members on this forum, including at least one ex-Chair that I am aware of, while I myself used to work in the communications department alongside Chris Williams. Believe me, there are plenty of us who know what it’s like to bear the brunt.

It’s my personal opinion that you got it wrong in terms of what you said on the BBC, but ultimately the majority of people’s frustrations (certainly mine) are with the football club and the people within it who keep making potentially costly mistakes, and who seem to be incapable of learning or improving. We’re always told that lessons will be learned and that things will improve. Systems are being put in place, they say. It won’t be allowed to happen again, they say. Why does this stuff keep happening? These are merely the things that can’t be hidden from people, of course. These are just the things that the average fan knows about, because the EFL publishes this stuff in broad daylight.

I would also point out that there is a huge difference between the owners and the people who run the club day-to-day. The investment and commitment of the owners cannot reasonably be questioned and should not be criticised, in my view. Without them we don’t have a football club - they have been fantastic - but they are not one and the same. They deserve better, too.
Ryan I didn’t come on to persuade you or anyone else I was right in what I said, I just wanted to add a little context to the discussion. Your opinion is yours and we respect it and will take it into account as we try to all the ones we hear.

On the radio interview, in our update and on here I have tried to stress how seriously we are taking this and that we are still in contact with the club over it. If you read that as us ‘patting the club on the back and shrugging’ then as I said, maybe that’s on me for a failure of communication but it has not been through lack of trying.

Likewise me specifically saying ‘OxVox should be challenged and we welcome it’ is not to my mind us suggesting we are beyond criticism? Quite the opposite in fact. It would make our job far easier if people did engage with us directly. Constructive criticism allows us to form an overview of where members want us go. If you prefer not to relate yours back to us and post on here instead then that’s fine but we will keep asking all the same.

Ultimately all I can do is go by what you say here. Fundamentally my understanding is you feel we are brushing this aside and a far more public and vocal stance should have been taken. As I said I have tried repeatedly to assure people that we are working hard behind the scenes on this but I do not believe making this a public and personal issue either helps our club at this pivotal time both on and off the field or gets the club to work any harder at improving the situation, which they assure us they are.

Yes we can separate the ownership and those running the club on a day to day basis but the owners do not. They have reviewed this and have faith in the team in place and the work being done to improve how we deal with the increased demands of the Championship. Does that mean they are not throwing teacups or taking tough measures behind the scenes, I'd be very surprised if they weren't, but again, airing that in public might not be the most productive way forward.

If you want to discuss this further i’m happy to give you my number or meet you before a game to chat. If you prefer to stick to social media then i’ll get out of your way and let you get on.
 
It's a funny old world (funny old game?) in which late paperwork attracts an embargo, but failing to pay players, historically regarded as a catastrophic failure, is these days apparently considered less important. I think that's @SiHath 's point.

Anyway, setting that aside, and as a fellow committee member of OxVox FWIW, I disagree profoundly with the picture being painted on here that OxVox has been remiss in not addressing the issue seriously with the club.

I don't think you would expect chapter and verse of the conversations that @Paul P and others have had with Grant Ferguson, Tim Williams and others about this issue to be relayed on this forum.

But fans should be in no doubt whatsoever that this administrative failure is regarded very seriously and we have taken and continue to take every opportunity to get that message across.

A review of the in house processes, continuous monitoring of requirements of the EFL and other relevant bodies, and having checks and balances (feedback loops, if you will) in place to ensure that critical reporting dates are met, are all vital safeguardsn and must be in place.

I'm retired now, but in my professional life I managed the budgeting and monitoring for a modest sized academic research group of some 12 or so staff. I'm sure the Department of Health, our funders, could give the EFL a run for their money in terms of bureaucracy, attention to costings, quarterly reporting etc etc. No reports, no funding. It was as simple as that. It was an organisational imperative for me, so don't try to tell me that this EFL issue is unimportant or that anyone at OxVox was taking it lightly.
 
Hi all

Sorry to come clattering in but I wanted to make a few points on the embargo debate to clarify our position.

Firstly there seems to be a misconception that we are not putting supporters views across or being ‘tough’ enough on the club. If we have given that impression then that is on me. The fact of the matter is we have been speaking to the club all weekend and continue to do so, including Grant Ferguson, and they are fully aware of our feelings and those of a section of our supporters.

For those that are angry and demanding tougher rhetoric I would ask if they would be happy with us clashing with the club and questioning our running in public with a planning decision months away? We also had to weigh up the fact we had a vital game the next day and another on Wednesday. Not a great time to be stealing headlines.

Given the choice of grandstanding publicly or having strong words in private, we chose the latter. We have and will always choose what works for members, supporters and the health of our club over brownie points for OxVox.

As frustrating and annoying and worrying as these two incidents have proved I think most supporters would agree that the owners and the board have put in the investment and time to take us to our highest level in a quarter of a century. Investment that has seen us develop Championship level training facilities, a competitive Championship squad, and a substantially improved academy. They have also taken us to the verge of a £150m pound stadium that would put us on the road to financial sustainability.

Does all this excuse these issues? No. Should it offer some perspective on how far we have come and the strides that have been made? We think so. We continue to challenge the club on these unacceptable mistakes but in a way that we feel will get the best results.

Two final points and I will disappear and let the onslaught continue.

We have a small team of dedicated supporters working for nothing and giving up their weekend to try and deal with a fast moving situation and respond to my barrage of emails. OxVox should be challenged and we welcome it. In every update we send out we ask for members to contact us but some of the vitriol, without even contacting us, seems a little misplaced.

We have received a grand total of three emails regarding this incident. One was negative and two were supportive. I gave a full reply yesterday to the one questioning how we dealt with this. I hope to get round to replying to the positive comments later today or tomorrow.

Please excuse the long post but for six years I have tried to do the right thing for our members and our club so these things matter to me.

Cheers

Paul

Chairman

OxVox

I appreciate it must be very difficult to find a balance between being critical of the running of the club without hindering the progress of the stadium or upstaging the performance of the team on the pitch, but I think all this goes back to just how poor the communication is from the club at the moment.

IMO the club have created/manufactured this awkward situation. If their communication with fans was more open, proactive, and, most importantly, direct, then OxVox could focus on being an independent supporters trust rather than some sort of quasi-comms department.

The club promised two fans' forums a year. Given the delicate and critical situation the club is in at the moment, holding them to account on this should be one of OxVox's main priorities, imo. That way the responsibility for asking difficult questions of the board can be shared rather just falling on your lap.

The longer they hide behind OxVox, OUSP and scripted responses on podcasts, the more frustrated certain sections of the fanbase are going to become, particularly when situations like this arise (although hopefully this is the last one!!).
 
2 forums annually, pencilled in for March and September, with March being focused on the board/club management and off the field matters, and September on football matters, is the commitment as I understand it. Hence the March one is now overdue and we have asked for a club commitment to a date for their top table to be available. Last March was very successful in terms of attendance and opportunity to ask questions and I'd expect the same to be true again.
 
2 forums annually, pencilled in for March and September, with March being focused on the board/club management and off the field matters, and September on football matters, is the commitment as I understand it. Hence the March one is now overdue and we have asked for a club commitment to a date for their top table to be available. Last March was very successful in terms of attendance and opportunity to ask questions and I'd expect the same to be true again.
When did OxVox first approach the club for the March forum Trevor?
 
2 forums annually, pencilled in for March and September, with March being focused on the board/club management and off the field matters, and September on football matters, is the commitment as I understand it. Hence the March one is now overdue and we have asked for a club commitment to a date for their top table to be available. Last March was very successful in terms of attendance and opportunity to ask questions and I'd expect the same to be true again.

Did last September’s take place?
 
My point, which I think is valid, is that we aren't some basket case of a club, where nothing is being done correctly.
I won’t labour the point as I sense everyone has drawn a line in the sand and wants to move on, nervously crossing their fingers in the hope there are no further admin mishaps.

But on whether we are a basket club, here’s what rival fans probably think of OUFC -

- Tinpot club in the worst EFL stadium, they even forgot to build a 4th stand.
- They have historically relied on a faulty fax machine to get transfer deals over the line.
- Same problems with late payments to players down the years as other struggling clubs.
- Didn’t they get kicked out of the league cup for fielding an ineligible player, Manny? And then the same thing happened in their Conference season. Why can’t they learn from their mistakes?
- Weren’t they the first EFL club to downgrade their publicly-available annual accounts to suggest they were a ‘small business’ just so they could conceal data on losses and pay-offs?
- Aren’t Oxford the club with a track record of giving long contracts to injury-prone players looking for their last big pay day?
- Aren’t Oxford the team who gave Orient a huge advantage on the final day of their last Lge2 season, by giving them hundreds of extra seats in the home end?
- Aren’t Oxford the team who have let their current stadium lease run down without getting plans & funding in place and approved for a new stadium in time? And they did this by arguing with their landlord and previous owner over lease terms?
- So you’re saying Oxford have breached EFL rules twice again this season, in their first year back in the Championship? Are they doing their best to get sent back down the divisions? Surely they have an experienced & competent backroom admin & accounts team to troubleshoot issues though? What? They were all made redundant?
 
I won’t labour the point as I sense everyone has drawn a line in the sand and wants to move on, nervously crossing their fingers in the hope there are no further admin mishaps.

But on whether we are a basket club, here’s what rival fans probably think of OUFC -

- Tinpot club in the worst EFL stadium, they even forgot to build a 4th stand.
- They have historically relied on a faulty fax machine to get transfer deals over the line.
- Same problems with late payments to players down the years as other struggling clubs.
- Didn’t they get kicked out of the league cup for fielding an ineligible player, Manny? And then the same thing happened in their Conference season. Why can’t they learn from their mistakes?
- Weren’t they the first EFL club to downgrade their publicly-available annual accounts to suggest they were a ‘small business’ just so they could conceal data on losses and pay-offs?
- Aren’t Oxford the club with a track record of giving long contracts to injury-prone players looking for their last big pay day?
- Aren’t Oxford the team who gave Orient a huge advantage on the final day of their last Lge2 season, by giving them hundreds of extra seats in the home end?
- Aren’t Oxford the team who have let their current stadium lease run down without getting plans & funding in place and approved for a new stadium in time? And they did this by arguing with their landlord and previous owner over lease terms?
- So you’re saying Oxford have breached EFL rules twice again this season, in their first year back in the Championship? Are they doing their best to get sent back down the divisions? Surely they have an experienced & competent backroom admin & accounts team to troubleshoot issues though? What? They were all made redundant?
Would you be able to provide a similarly detailed list for all the other league clubs?

I'm not sure I could.

I remember speaking to a Sheffield Wednesday fan (coincidentally) when we (OxVox) we're getting signatures on a petition connected to the new stadium a year or so back.

They had no idea we didn't own the Kassam stadium. Didn't know anything about our stadium situation.

Now I'm not saying that your list isn't important, because it is, but we know about these things because we are fans. I've got no idea if Port Vale (to pluck a team out of the air) has had any issues for example. This is my point about seeing our troubles as unique to us, and seeming to imply that no other club has a similar list.
 
My take on OxVox is they are built from fans, by the fans. We end up with the organisation we deserve at the end of the day. If you don't agree with messages coming out and you are a member, email them. I have done this in the past (not very frequently to be honest) and always received a response. Sure, call out things on here but email OxVox directly as well.

Not everyone has the time or motivation to get directly involved, fair play to those who do, but an email if you feel strongly about either the direction of travel the organisation is heading in or for something you think should be pursued doesn't really take up that much time.
 
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