The Ashes - 3rd - Test- 16/12/2025 - Adelaide Oval

[tonyw]

As I’ve said in the previous test thread, I don’t actually want the entire McCullum/Stokes project dismantled after The Ashes. I still believe in them, and I think the away Ashes cycle of tearing everything up and starting again just because we’ve got thrashed in Australia won’t actually solve a lot of the systemic challenges that an English test cricket set up faces in 2025/26 and beyond.

Stokes, I get - he's our best cricketer, he leads by example and he plays with his heart on his sleeve. I'm not sure that his body is going to allow him to keep going for that much longer, but for as long as he's upright, he should still be a part of the England setup. And there's really no other serious candidates for the captaincy right now.

But what still gives you faith in McCullum? We had an epic run in 2022, beating three average teams back-to-back in thrilling fashion. But since then, we've been incredibly mediocre, and have not played up to our talent level. We've been absolutely demolished in India and Australia, and failed to beat each of those teams at home despite being the better team in both series. We also lost in Pakistan, and managed to draw a series in New Zealand that we had absolutely wrapped up until we made a bonkers follow-on decision.

He's shown he's only capable of getting his team to play one way, and doesn't have a plan B. The preparations, and scheduling of this tour have been beyond shoddy, and the latest example of a slapdash trend to foreign tours. And he shows favouritism in his team selections - constantly picking his guys, and rapidly binning good players that don't fit his mould (e.g. Foakes).

I admit I haven't liked his style from the start, but I don't know what more he would have to do to earn the sack?

I don't want to rip it all out and start again - but McCullum, Key, Crawley & Pope should no longer be part of the Test setup. None of them are good enough to beat the best - and what's the point if that's not our goal?

We've got a relatively gentle summer coming up with NZ and Pakistan touring......perfect time to blood some replacements - but then things get serious, starting with a tour to South Africa (who are seemingly the best Test team in the world right now) next winter, and then six Ashes Tests in 2027. New regime needs to be up to speed by then, so the heads have to figuratively roll on the plane home from Oz.

 

[Mateo Corbo's Tackle]

There is a quote about Donovan (the folk/pop singer) from back in the day. It went something along the lines of 'there is absolutely nothing wrong with Donovan, but his influence is a disaster'. Loads of young men wailing away on acoustic guitars wearing kaftans and beads but without Donovan's talent.

I feel the same way about Ben Stokes. He is a hugely gifted cricketer - a unique talent, with grit and determination. But what he *cannot* be is a template for English test cricketers - and I do feel he has been assigned that position, either willingly or unwillingly. People have different talents - most of them will never all be able to play in a Stokes-like manner and make a success of it. As well as that meaning that other players are not exploiting their own unique talents fully, it means two other things. Firstly, talented players like Foakes are pushed out into the cold because they cannot fit that mould and secondly, when it all goes a bit wrong, Stokes feels it is up to him to put everything right. So he has knackered himself by repeatedly over-bowling in the past - with the result that there are times (like this Aussie second innings) that he seemingly cannot bowl at all and serious injury always seems a likelihood.

The art of creating a team is IMO in being able to blend different approaches, different talents to create something that is more than the sum of the individuals within that team - which is where the Bazball approach falls short, because trying to make everyone play the same way is never going to create that situation.

Bang on.
You know that theoretical Oxford team that most people were terrified of that would play attacking one touch with full abandon, using players that weren’t good enough to do it - that’s kind of England, that is.

 

[tonyw]

The question in my mind is why are the Aussies so superior in every aspect of the game, as they are subject to the same 'evolution' issues as us.

Speculation......but I think the vast majority of them still get themselves home for the Sheffield Shield, at least for a few games, and play in what is still the toughest proving ground for red ball cricket.

With the IPL, Hundred and all the other forms of disco cricket, our centrally contracted players barely play in the County Championship nowadays. Their only exposure to red ball cricket is Test matches.

 

[McXal]

I do think that McCullam should be replaced though.
He's the catalyst for the way we play.

But what still gives you faith in McCullum? We had an epic run in 2022, beating three average teams back-to-back in thrilling fashion. But since then, we've been incredibly mediocre, and have not played up to our talent level.

I think a big part of my reasoning for still backing McCullum is credit in the bank. As someone that doesn’t really enjoy or watch much whiteball/limited overs cricket but ADORES test match cricket and have watched it pretty fanatically since childhood - I remember how utterly joyless and AWFUL we were in the last few years of Root’s captaincy. Obviously Covid was was a mitigating factor in some of that. But we were an actively bad, unambitious, dour team struggling to find any identity that allowed us to move out of the shadow of the all-conquering (but ultra-conservative) Strauss/Flower era.

I think the job McCullum, Stokes (& Key) did in dragging us out of that tailspin gives them credit in the bank. Some of the cricket has been thrilling to watch, and up until this tour when it feels like it’s really gone off the rails (and they’re hardly the first regime to go off the rails in an overseas Ashes campaign), it has been mostly enjoyable, relentlessly unpredictable and zany, if sometimes wildly frustrating. I think they’ve earned the right to take the harsh lessons they’ve learned from this tour and show an ability to adapt, improve and become less pigheadedly stubborn in the ‘Bazball’ style.

I also think that Test cricket as a whole is a dying concept. Most of the reasons for that are way beyond their control. Even in this country where it remains viable it is dying off under the weight of poor competition, outrageous ticket prices and being wholly hidden behind paywalls. My belief is that a more dynamic, ‘fun’ brand of test cricket is the only way the concept survives. It felt like we were at the forefront of that - as a country of the cricketing status of England should be. And could still be if we become less like one-dimensional Bazballers and more like a multi-faceted, ultra-aggressive (whilst still attacking) cricket team.

Lastly, I really don’t like the red and whiteball coaching jobs split. Particularly when you have someone like McCullum who has vast experience and skill in both as a player. Given that white ball cricket is only going to become more prevalent, I think having your red ball coach also be the whiteball coach means both teams are likely to remain relevant, rather than the limited overs side gradually take precedence. And since McCullum only just got the limited overs gig he isn’t going anywhere there.

If I’m pausing to reflect, I do think it might actually be Key’s head who could roll here. He is clearly an affable guy. And I think his leadership style was integral for leading away from the darkness of that horrible last Windies tour under Root and towards something more fun. But if you believe a culture is set from the top…it’s clear culturally we’ve gone wrong here. Our preparation for this tour has been vastly wrong. I understand schedules are horrible now, but we COULD have done more prep in Australia (more in terms of both quality and quantity). Key could have MADE us do more. And he didn’t. He is also at the forefront of the sh*ts and giggles, here for the vibes, ‘we can chase 500 so will bowl first even on a road’, ‘see you on the golf course lads’ culture too. He acted FAR too late to stamp that out and stop us coming off like such brainless, arrogant sloggers that even our own fans were getting irritated.

We make wholesale changes after every Ashes drubbing. This time I think the coach and captain have enough credit in the bank (and very few viable alternatives) to earn the chance to show they can improve. As above if I’m backing a head to roll, maybe it’s Key…

 

[holdsteady]

Stokes won’t get sacked but will he stay on? Even if he chooses to how long is he going to last, he certainly won’t be a bowler (even in his part time guise) for a lot longer.

Will be a very different team that goes to Australia in four years time anyway, age and turnover will see to that. Don’t see the harm in giving overs a look in now, might find a few new faces that work.

 

[Big mac]

I think the county championship is very weak, a lot of the overseas lads you’ve never heard of, think there should be a mini red ball tournament the best v the best, maybe a north ,south ,east versus west? And do away with the stupid hundred! We need to do something because this has been an embarrassment

 

[tonyw]

I think a big part of my reasoning for still backing McCullum is credit in the bank. As someone that doesn’t really enjoy or watch much whiteball/limited overs cricket but ADORES test match cricket and have watched it pretty fanatically since childhood - I remember how utterly joyless and AWFUL we were in the last few years of Root’s captaincy. Obviously Covid was was a mitigating factor in some of that. But we were an actively bad, unambitious, dour team struggling to find any identity that allowed us to move out of the shadow of the all-conquering (but ultra-conservative) Strauss/Flower era.

I think the job McCullum, Stokes (& Key) did in dragging us out of that tailspin gives them credit in the bank. Some of the cricket has been thrilling to watch, and up until this tour when it feels like it’s really gone off the rails (and they’re hardly the first regime to go off the rails in an overseas Ashes campaign), it has been mostly enjoyable, relentlessly unpredictable and zany, if sometimes wildly frustrating. I think they’ve earned the right to take the harsh lessons they’ve learned from this tour and show an ability to adapt, improve and become less pigheadedly stubborn in the ‘Bazball’ style.

I also think that Test cricket as a whole is a dying concept. Most of the reasons for that are way beyond their control. Even in this country where it remains viable it is dying off under the weight of poor competition, outrageous ticket prices and being wholly hidden behind paywalls. My belief is that a more dynamic, ‘fun’ brand of test cricket is the only way the concept survives. It felt like we were at the forefront of that - as a country of the cricketing status of England should be. And could still be if we become less like one-dimensional Bazballers and more like a multi-faceted, ultra-aggressive (whilst still attacking) cricket team.

Whilst I accept that the Root captaincy was atrocious, and Cook before him pretty mediocre (certainly compared to Strauss & Vaughn before them, who were both outstanding)......the credit in the bank can't last forever. Since the beginning of the last home Ashes series, we've lost (15) more Test matches than we've won (14)......that assumes we do lose this one......and that includes a game against Zimbabwe and a three game series against a West Indies side so green that any half-decent county outfit would have turned them over. Two and a half years of mediocrity is a long time.

Also, if we followed the 'credit in the bank' argument, we would never have gotten rid of Root. After all, in the first few years of his captaincy we thrashed India 4-1 and won a series 3-1 in South Africa - both greater achievements than anything that McCullum/Stokes have managed in what's now a full Test cricket cycle.


On the more general issue on the future of Test cricket, my viewpoint is this - if the younger generations lack the patience and attention-span to appreciate Test cricket, and instead are gravitating towards white ball cricket, then that is tragic and it means that the days of Test cricket are numbered. That is desperately sad and I will mourn it (I also have minimal interest in the limited overs forms of the game, outside of World Cups). But I would rather it died off, than continued to exist as some five day bastardized slogfest of an extended Twenty20 game. There's a place for aggression absolutely - when you're on top, when you're batting on a road, when you need quick runs to get to a declaration.....fine, go for it. But not all day, every day. Not what Bazball at it's worst tries to do. There needs to be ebbs and flows, and moments of calm and conservative play when the going is tough......or else it really isn't Test cricket in my book.

 

[SteMerritt]

I think the county championship is very weak, a lot of the overseas lads you’ve never heard of, think there should be a mini red ball tournament the best v the best, maybe a north ,south ,east versus west? And do away with the stupid hundred! We need to do something because this has been an embarrassment

There have been multiple attempts to restructure the red ball game in England, but they always fail because obviously the smaller counties aren't going to vote for something which marginalises them.

I'd be in favour of a North East, North West, Midlands, South East, South West red ball tournament at the top of the domestic game, but where do you fit it in, and why would the big counties agree to their players being used?

 

[Foley]

There have been multiple attempts to restructure the red ball game in England, but they always fail because obviously the smaller counties aren't going to vote for something which marginalises them.

I'd be in favour of a North East, North West, Midlands, South East, South West red ball tournament at the top of the domestic game, but where do you fit it in, and why would the big counties agree to their players being used?

Really radical, but get rid of the County Championship and replace it with similar teams to those in the Hundred ( not what I would advocate, but putting it out there).

Similar to the Sheffield Shield.
The County Championship then becomes Minor Leage equivalent.

Probably a terrible idea, but could it significantly improve the quality? Or does it not matter if Tests will finish as we know it?

 

[Mike_H]

Get rid of the Hundred nonsense; promote the Championship and a one day competition of 50 overs a side as the main two competitions and find some way of showing them on mainstream TV. Make the 20 over slogfest the least promoted of all 3 competitions. Ban any 10 over franchises worldwide.

Probably wouldn't be popular but might get English cricketers playing properly again. #Tradition #TestCricketForAllWhetherYouWantItOrNot

 

[holdsteady]

Dear worlds best cricketers

How do you feel about being poorer? We want to take away all the short overs tournaments that make you very good money and replace it with more work for a lot less money.

Kind Regards,
Posters on an obscure football forum.

Dear posters on an obscure football

No.

Kind Regards,
Worlds best cricketers


I have a feeling that’s how the conversation will go.

 

[McXal]

Whilst I accept that the Root captaincy was atrocious, and Cook before him pretty mediocre (certainly compared to Strauss & Vaughn before them, who were both outstanding)......the credit in the bank can't last forever. Since the beginning of the last home Ashes series, we've lost (15) more Test matches than we've won (14)......that assumes we do lose this one......and that includes a game against Zimbabwe and a three game series against a West Indies side so green that any half-decent county outfit would have turned them over. Two and a half years of mediocrity is a long time.

Also, if we followed the 'credit in the bank' argument, we would never have gotten rid of Root. After all, in the first few years of his captaincy we thrashed India 4-1 and won a series 3-1 in South Africa - both greater achievements than anything that McCullum/Stokes have managed in what's now a full Test cricket cycle.


On the more general issue on the future of Test cricket, my viewpoint is this - if the younger generations lack the patience and attention-span to appreciate Test cricket, and instead are gravitating towards white ball cricket, then that is tragic and it means that the days of Test cricket are numbered. That is desperately sad and I will mourn it (I also have minimal interest in the limited overs forms of the game, outside of World Cups). But I would rather it died off, than continued to exist as some five day bastardized slogfest of an extended Twenty20 game. There's a place for aggression absolutely - when you're on top, when you're batting on a road, when you need quick runs to get to a declaration.....fine, go for it. But not all day, every day. Not what Bazball at it's worst tries to do. There needs to be ebbs and flows, and moments of calm and conservative play when the going is tough......or else it really isn't Test cricket in my book.

Can’t argue with much of this, particularly on your view of what makes test cricket great, as I wholeheartedly agree! And I definitely agree about what Bazball at its worst does to test cricket (Although I would argue that at its best Bazball was an exciting evolution of the long form of the game which would keep it relevant in a modern era of cricket; until it became so wildly one-dimensional and insular that it became easy for every team to suss it out!)

I’m also not arguing Stokes and McCullum get carte blanche to remain in post indefinitely without doing anything differently. I just think they’ve earned the chance to try to put it right. The nucleus of this team is talented and young enough to improve - and will be better for the tough experience. Some players need to be cycled out of course. But with some winnable games at home this summer as a chance to blood some fresh talent where needed (I’d argue that needs to start earlier; with two dead rubbers in Oz assuming we fail to come up with an Adelaide miracle this weekend) - and a chance to give a litmus test on how much Baz/Stokes have been able to learn and improve with another tough test tour next winter…personally I’d stick with them.

(My view would change if they don’t punt Crawley and Pope in particular after this series though. In my view their positions are now untenable!)

 

[Berliner]

This is your public service announcement that we were still w*nk at Test cricket in the late 80s and early 90s when all we had was the County Championship and Sunday League/NatWest Trophy (winning score in 1989 in 60 overs = 211 for 6!) and nary a coloured pyjama top or white ball in sight.

 

[tonyw]

This is your public service announcement that we were still w*nk at Test cricket in the late 80s and early 90s when all we had was the County Championship and Sunday League/NatWest Trophy (winning score in 1989 in 60 overs = 211 for 6!) and nary a coloured pyjama top or white ball in sight.

My favourite was India's first World Cup match in 1975, when they responded to England's then record 334/4 by scoring 132/3 in their full 60 overs!
Sunil Gavaskar batted the full innings, and was 36 not out off 174 balls!

 

[Foley]

Is it right that Archer has the most runs after Root and Stokes ?
Whilst our bowling has been average ( except for Archer), our batting has been shocking

 

[Mike_H]

Crawley has now dismissed Head in both innings - worth his place in the team for that alone.

 

[SSO]

Just turned on and said to my wife I hope we get this cheating bastard out. Next ball bye bye Carey.

 

[SSO]

Wow just need the 435 to win. I think the bookies could take a caning because we were 13/2 and it has come in to 5/1 before a ball has been bowled.

Think you would get shorter odds on us being 5 for 1 and 13 for 2 before lunch.

 

[McXal]

Here we go, Pope and Crawley together. Huge partnership that saves both their careers and gets us on the way to a record run chase. Or both nicking off in the teens having played a couple of flashy cover drives…

 

[Sutton Yellow]

Ben Duckett, what the hell even was that? Prodding at the new ball with an angled bat.

Absolutely dogsh*t.

 

[CaptainOx]

5 minutes before lunch and Duckett offers some catching practice. The inability to use logic at key points in the game baffles me.

 

[Billyox]

Lovely weather today

 

[Leysboy]

Harry Brook very talented, but that was a stupid attempt at a reverse sweep. It was also not needed at this moment in time. A big run chase, and loads on the line. Even Crawley has restrained himself.

 

[Leysboy]

Crawley and Stokes depart.

Smith and Jacks in bat. Turned it off. No guts, and players continue to play stupid shots, and giving there wickets away.

 

[unification]

Ben Duckett, what the hell even was that? Prodding at the new ball with an angled bat.

Absolutely dogsh*t.

Yet this sort of stuff was written about him in the summer.

Why Ben Duckett Is The Best All-Format Batter In The World

With the innings of his life in another massive chase against India, Ben Duckett strengthened his claim as the best all-format batter in the world, writes Ben Gardner from Headingley.

www.wisden.com

People seem to go in hard on Crawley (and I understand why) but Duckett really should be under the same scrutiny too. He’s had a really poor series.

 

[holdsteady]

Crawley seems to have actually learnt a little bit from his embarrassing start here, unfortunately it’s taken him 60 tests to start learning, which is ridiculous but still something. Duckett is never going to leave balls and Pope just isn’t good enough. As a top 3 they are never going to work at a certain level of test cricket and others need to be given a chance now. Start with Pope out first, no point of Bethell going if he can’t get in for a number 3 who averages 15 in Australia, we might as well give him some much needed experience in the longer format and he isn’t an opener.

 

[McXal]

Yep - Crawley probably did JUST enough to give himself the rest of the series.

Time to go for Pope. Bethell won’t do any better. The guy has barely played cricket all year. But you can’t just keep Pope failing and flapping/flailing around in perpetuity. He’s had enough chances.

The team felt like they were fighting hard today. Unfortunately it’s taken them three tests to get up to speed, and at this point Australia are flying, in form and miles too good. Even though they’ve not been able to pick their best team in any match. It’s all too little, too late.

 

[Canterburyexile]

God I hate Harry Brook. Or rather I hate the mindset that he’s adopted. It’s like a kid trying to ape the grownups but not really getting it. Naive little t**t.

 

[Foley]

I thought that Crawley played very well.
Defended well and chose the right ball to attack. If he plays like that, we have a player ( hardly ever play against a bowling attack as good as this and with Lyon on a 4th day pitch)

Generally, we battled really hard today ( except for a typical Duckett innings). In reality we were never going to get 430 on the 4th innings, but when Crawley and Root and then Crawley and Books were together, we looked decent snd generally in control.

If only we had played with as much discipline in the first Test

 

[tonyw]

God I hate Harry Brook. Or rather I hate the mindset that he’s adopted. It’s like a kid trying to ape the grownups but not really getting it. Naive little t**t.

Have to agree.

I get that, at the time he got out, it was appropriate to play with some level of aggression. You don't want to just go into your shell and let the Aussies surround the bat. Put some pressure on them.

But to pull out the reverse sweep? It's a pre-meditated shot, you're not playing a ball on its merits, and if you get the wrong ball (like he did) then you're in trouble right away. It's basically cricket's version of Russian roulette and when the Ashes are on the line, it's pure idiocy.

And yes, Root and Jacks used it to.....and I would say the same to them. Only Brook has form because he got himself out and left us exposed when we were going well chasing a big total in the final Test against India too.

The guy needs someone to give him the hairdryer treatment.