National News Scottish Independence

If Scotland can become independent and then join the EU (which is what I think they want - feel free to correct me!) - then it could make sense(ish!). The Scots have always had close links with the Irish and the French - and the North of Scotland is almost Scandinavia :)
 
Yeah but no but. This is about Scotland, so it's their business.

This whole concept of your first two sentences here is nonsense though. You can't apply simplistic logic to these votes. The vote for the Union campaign specifically referenced the Union as providing certainty about staying in the EU. The Brexit referendum changed that completely. It is, frankly, stupid to think that the Union referendum result was still valid after that material change. Referenda aren't devices to trap people into decisions before switching the conditions!

The idea that it is this ridiculously simple ("out means out", "will of the people") only seems to have arisen since the brexit referendum, as if there are a bunch of people who voted then for the first time and are now amazed that people change their minds as the world changes around them.

Ironic that the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems campaigned as "Better Together"..... with little mention of the EU in their campaigning.

So are we heading for an eternal world of referenda because someone might have changed their mind??

Just because something happened isn`t sufficient justification to crave referendum after referendum as we have learnt they are a blunt tool to resolve a complex issue!

Either that or make them legally binding, the day after the vote whatever we, the people, decide is enacted job done.

Its the uncertainty that kills and gives those who came second false hope.

Remember it has been 40+ years until we had a second vote about the EEC/EU....
 
If Scotland can become independent and then join the EU (which is what I think they want - feel free to correct me!) - then it could make sense(ish!). The Scots have always had close links with the Irish and the French - and the North of Scotland is almost Scandinavia :)

And the foundations for the wall are still there............ ** :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:



**NB... humorous comment referring to Hadrians Wall.
 
Was listening to one of the SNP MPs in London being interviewed yesterday morning. When it came to funding of a national army, Air Force or navy the MP didn’t have a clue on cost or how they’d do it. His opinion was that the EU would let them keep the pound and that Scotland would join the EU almost acting as a middle man/broker between England and the EU.

The limited resource that is North Sea oil that seems to get bandied round as if it’s a limitless pot of gold will only go so far too. I can’t say I have any real affinity to Scotland or the Scottish people and wouldn’t be overly bothered if they did get independence. The people I work with up there never seem to be overly enamoured of the English which has probably tainted how I get on with them.

As has been said I think it will happen in the next few years and it definitely won’t be pretty! I don’t think there’s anyone in this country (certainly those advocating we leave the EU) that can say anything other than “let them have a vote on it”. Times have changed and the people of Scotland in the latest UK referendum sided firmly with the EU.
 
Throughout the whole Brexit debacle, it has become increasingly clear that the SNP have had only one aim-Independence.
Because of that,I have become increasingly anti the party.
On the other hand,I think the UK would be a lesser entity without them.
 
I may be wrong but I thought that if a new country now applies to join the EU they are obliged to adopt the Euro currency, therefore no more pound.

You're absolutely right - I believe it was actually part of the Maastrict treaty, we just got an opt out.
If you join the EU now, you're legally obliged to join the Euro. Although first your economy does have to be in regulatory alignment with the EU's, and I suspect Scotland's is way off. So they'll first be obliged to substantially reduce their deficit-to-GDP ratio. Meaning hello to more austerity.
They'll also be legally obliged to join Schengen, unless the EU gives them a special opt out.

Of course, this is assuming that the EU agrees to let them in in the first place. Spain may have something to say about that, if it wants to send a message to the Catalans and Basques.

That all being said - I lived in Scotland for several years, and have many Scottish friends. Almost across the board, they voted to stay in the Union, but most did so slightly grudgingly.....wanting Scotland to be an independent country, but realizing that it was probably economic suicide to do so.

If the UK does finally leave the EU, and if that does have some negative economic impact north of the border, then I suspect they would all be switching and Scottish independence would win in a landslide. Especially if the EU made positive noises about letting them in......
 
The Scots voted in the EU referendum as well.............................as part of the UK, the UK they had voted to remain in!


I guess a fair way to do it then would be to have an EU-wide vote on whether Britain should exit.

Seems a logical extension of your argument?
 
Give the Scots another vote. Let them go and then have another vote on to remain or stay.
i would imagine the vote would be more conclusive.
Then hopefully no more protests about, we don’t know what we were voting for.
Nicola Sturgeon will Get what she wants. Independence from the U.K. and subservience to Brussels with the EU.
we will vote out conclusively and the MPs can get on and do what they need to
 
How does what you've put differ from this...
It's actually really simple. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, so opportunities for trade, etc open up accordingly because of the size of our spending and our ability to trade on a high level - and our size and power in the EU is worth highlighting and loss for their presitige on the global stage. So while we have less influence leaving the EU, we are still collectively influential on a global stage. Scotland - you can't say any of that can you?
 
I guess a fair way to do it then would be to have an EU-wide vote on whether Britain should exit.

Seems a logical extension of your argument?

That is almost as bad as a suggestion of eternal referenda until the "right" result is achieved.

Each nation/state can choose to leave the EU as long as they do so by a democratic means.
Scotland had a vote (once in a generation and all that) and chose to remain in the Union, they were then involved in the national decision to leave the EU.

It can be as simple or as complex as folk wish to make it....
 
That is almost as bad as a suggestion of eternal referenda until the "right" result is achieved.

Each nation/state can choose to leave the EU as long as they do so by a democratic means.
Scotland had a vote (once in a generation and all that) and chose to remain in the Union, they were then involved in the national decision to leave the EU.

It can be as simple or as complex as folk wish to make it....
And the Scottish portion of the vote was to remain in the EU...

It's obvious things have (will, probably) changed dramatically since their independence vote, so it would seem perfectly reasonable for them to have another referendum if the UK leaves the EU.

Saying that, the UK wide public now has a far greater knowledge of what trying to leave the EU actually entails than it did when we actually had the referendum. So, to me, there is a good reason for a further vote now we are all more enlightened. And, I can't see why leavers would object to this either... Unless they now think the majority of the public want to remain.
 
That is almost as bad as a suggestion of eternal referenda until the "right" result is achieved.

Each nation/state can choose to leave the EU as long as they do so by a democratic means.
Scotland had a vote (once in a generation and all that) and chose to remain in the Union, they were then involved in the national decision to leave the EU.

It can be as simple or as complex as folk wish to make it....

Agree. It's an absolutely ludicrous suggestion.

As it's absolutely ludicrous to in any way imply that Scotland voted to leave the EU.

Edit: And I don't agree it's as simple as folk choose to make it. This belief is half the problem IMO.
 
And the Scottish portion of the vote was to remain in the EU...

It's obvious things have (will, probably) changed dramatically since their independence vote, so it would seem perfectly reasonable for them to have another referendum if the UK leaves the EU.

Saying that, the UK wide public now has a far greater knowledge of what trying to leave the EU actually entails than it did when we actually had the referendum. So, to me, there is a good reason for a further vote now we are all more enlightened. And, I can't see why leavers would object to this either... Unless they now think the majority of the public want to remain.


Our available knowledge since the EU referendum hasn`t changed, anyone who thought it would be "easy" after 40+ years of the EU embedding itself into our lives didn`t do any research or apply much thought.

Without a General Election to "clear the path" first we don`t, currently, have a Parliament reflective of the vote, it is probably 52/48 Remain, or more.

The GE didn`t happen for many reasons, mostly the Opposition being ? scared of dealing with the problem.

We are now left with Boris pushing things as close to the wire as is possible and, above all, killing time. Be that right or wrong depends on which side you sit I guess.

3+ years of procrastination and kicking the can has stagnated the ability of Parliament to do their day job, stifled business decisions and created division.

Get on, get it done, deliver the will of the electorate and then have a GE, if a party runs on a "Rejoin the EU" ticket and wins then good luck to them.
 
Our available knowledge since the EU referendum hasn`t changed, anyone who thought it would be "easy" after 40+ years of the EU embedding itself into our lives didn`t do any research or apply much thought.

Without a General Election to "clear the path" first we don`t, currently, have a Parliament reflective of the vote, it is probably 52/48 Remain, or more.

The GE didn`t happen for many reasons, mostly the Opposition being [emoji90] scared of dealing with the problem.

We are now left with Boris pushing things as close to the wire as is possible and, above all, killing time. Be that right or wrong depends on which side you sit I guess.

3+ years of procrastination and kicking the can has stagnated the ability of Parliament to do their day job, stifled business decisions and created division.

Get on, get it done, deliver the will of the electorate and then have a GE, if a party runs on a "Rejoin the EU" ticket and wins then good luck to them.
Bluster.

Of course the knowledge of most people of the difficulties of leaving has greatly improved now. To state otherwise is riduculous.
 
Without a General Election to "clear the path" first we don`t, currently, have a Parliament reflective of the vote, it is probably 52/48 Remain, or more.
We've had a GE since the vote, so it is reflective of the wishes of the people.
 
We've had a GE since the vote, so it is reflective of the wishes of the people.

The result may have been different if Brexit had been delivered................... see how easy it is to "rebalance" any single point? What about the "knowledge" we have gained since said GE? ;)
 
Bluster.

Of course the knowledge of most people of the difficulties of leaving has greatly improved now. To state otherwise is riduculous.

Of course the knowledge of most people of what the EEC has morphed into has greatly improved. To state otherwise is ridiculous.

:unsure:(y)
 
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