National News Scottish Independence

Foley

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So it is probably more likely that Scotland will vote for Independence next time.
In theory if the UK are out of the EU by then, Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU, and according to EU rules any new Country joining has to go into the Euro.

Plus the finances. The SNP dont have a great record of running the economy and seeing the comments above, makes you wonder how it will all work out for Scotland?
 

Big Ronaldo

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Laughably pathetic how wee jimmy krankie offers up the SNP vote for Mr Jeremy in exchange for another Indyref.
Lib Dem’s flirting with the greens and old Brexit party cosying up to blue boy boris. Seems to me that politicians have spent so long climbing into bed with each other that they should all move to Swindon!πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚πŸ˜‚
 

Essexyellows

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They had their "once in a generation" chance in 2014.


The referendum question was, "Should Scotland be an independent country?"..... sound familiar ?? 😁
Voters answered with "Yes" or "No" ..... sound familiar? 😁

The "No" side won with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour.

The turnout of 84.6% was the highest recorded for an election or referendum in the United Kingdom.

I`m guessing an 11% margin isn`t enough for losers either? Sound familiar? 😁
 

Briggsy

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And, again, circumstances have materially changed since the previous referendum. Scots were told that staying in the UK would guarantee their remaining in the EU. That's changed. Let them have another vote, if they want it.

One thing I do hope in the event of a second Scottish independence referendum is that they learn from the balls-up we've had with Brexit and stipulate that a super majority of at least 60-40 will be needed to implement independence.
 

Essexyellows

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And, again, circumstances have materially changed since the previous referendum. Scots were told that staying in the UK would guarantee their remaining in the EU. That's changed. Let them have another vote, if they want it.

One thing I do hope in the event of a second Scottish independence referendum is that they learn from the balls-up we've had with Brexit and stipulate that a super majority of at least 60-40 will be needed to implement independence.

The Scots voted in the EU referendum as well.............................as part of the UK, the UK they had voted to remain in!
 

Briggsy

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The Scots voted in the EU referendum as well.............................as part of the UK, the UK they had voted to remain in!

I have some sympathy for that point. But though it may be technically correct, I don't believe it has any moral weight. I think it self-evident that it is wrong to deny a well defined national group a say over its own future if a fundamental aspect of its relationship with others has changed.

Simple test: what would you want if it were England rather than Scotland in this position?
 

Foley

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I have some sympathy for that point. But though it may be technically correct, I don't believe it has any moral weight. I think it self-evident that it is wrong to deny a well defined national group a say over its own future if a fundamental aspect of its relationship with others has changed.

Simple test: what would you want if it were England rather than Scotland in this position?
That's the interesting one.
I am English and really dont care much whether Scotland are Independent or not
If I was Scottish I would be a little concerned about the economic impact of Independence. It seems to me that Scotland have done pretty well financially recently (free University places, free prescriptions (I believe??) and more per capita spent in the population than in England)
Plus has Scotland achieved Independence in the last vote, it may have been easier for them to have stayed in the EU on the then terms.
 

Gary Baldi

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If I were a Scot, while the concept of independence is nice in a Braveheart sort of a way, I wouldn't trust the SNP to do it or join the EU again. Their record up there is mixed at best when not talking about independence. The fact they think that the EU will be fine with no border to England is rather fanciful considering what we have now in NI and ROI.

And as we know in Brexit, the UK can say it's not a binding vote, so eff off. Bet the SNP won't like being on the other side of that one, and people like me will love pointing out the irony.
 

chuckbert

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Essexyellow - Irony much?
Do you think anyone in Scotland gives a toss what the English think, any more than you give a toss about what Europe thinks?
 
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Foley

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If I were a Scot, while the concept of independence is nice in a Braveheart sort of a way, I wouldn't trust the SNP to do it or join the EU again. Their record up there is mixed at best when not talking about independence. The fact they think that the EU will be fine with no border to England is rather fanciful considering what we have now in NI and ROI.
I have no doubt that the SNP will want to re join the EU. But you are right re the 'border'. How on earth would that work based on the problems being encountered in trying to find a solution in Ireland?
Presumably there would be passports each way, Scotland would be in the Euro and what about goods being transported each way.

I expect that there are big structural issues that are a little different from the UK and EU. So is it easy to ' split ' the National Grid' ?

One side effect I hope does happen is thay we have to no longer have our media take as much interest in Scottish football πŸ˜€
 

Gary Baldi

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I have no doubt that the SNP will want to re join the EU. But you are right re the 'border'. How on earth would that work based on the problems being encountered in trying to find a solution in Ireland?
Presumably there would be passports each way, Scotland would be in the Euro and what about goods being transported each way.

I expect that there are big structural issues that are a little different from the UK and EU. So is it easy to ' split ' the National Grid' ?

One side effect I hope does happen is thay we have to no longer have our media take as much interest in Scottish football πŸ˜€
I know. I saw an interview with an SNP spokesman the other day who clearly had not thought about the border issue until the interviewer asked the very thing - naive. The fact SNP can't run their own health service or schools well, I'd be worried about the bigger issues that the UK struggle to do if they were in charge.

I know Brexiteers are called fantasists, but what does that make the SNP? Serial fantasists at best.

As much as I try, Scottish football is awful.
 

Essexyellows

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I have some sympathy for that point. But though it may be technically correct, I don't believe it has any moral weight. I think it self-evident that it is wrong to deny a well defined national group a say over its own future if a fundamental aspect of its relationship with others has changed.

Simple test: what would you want if it were England rather than Scotland in this position?

The United Kingdom has been around a sight longer than the EU, their referendum for independence took place before the EU vote...... are they just choosing their masters? Westminster or Brussels?
 

Gary Baldi

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The United Kingdom has been around a sight longer than the EU, their referendum for independence took place before the EU vote...... are they just choosing their masters? Westminster or Brussels?
In the EU, will they have less say and influence than staying? The UK is collectively a bigger beast than Scotland and the fact they seem to think they can keep the Pound sums them up.
 

SteMerritt

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In the EU, will they have less say and influence than staying? The UK is collectively a bigger beast than Scotland and the fact they seem to think they can keep the Pound sums them up.
How does what you've put differ from this...

In the WORLD, will they have less say and influence than staying? The EU is collectively a bigger beast than THE UK
 

Essexyellows

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Essexyellow - Irony much?
Do you think anyone in Scotland gives a toss what the English think, any more than you give a toss about what Europe thinks?

The people who voted to Remain in the Union had the majority.
The people who voted to Leave the EU had the majority.

Its not difficult but it could very easily become a circular debate going nowhere, especially if losers are given a voice further than the business of getting off the sofa and voting when the opportunity arises.

Had we voted to remain in the EU, as in `75, then I would, personally, have accepted the result.
Same way as I accept where I live we will always have a Labour MP and a Labour City Council, it doesn`t represent the electorate as well as it should. I`m all for PR btw.

This 3 years of can kicking has achieved nothing, except create division & uncertainty.
One of the many reasons folk should back a fixed deadline and getting it sorted out and not walking away because the peoples choice was too "difficult".
 

chuckbert

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The people who voted to Remain in the Union had the majority.
The people who voted to Leave the EU had the majority.

Its not difficult but it could very easily become a circular debate going nowhere, especially if losers are given a voice further than the business of getting off the sofa and voting when the opportunity arises.

Had we voted to remain in the EU, as in `75, then I would, personally, have accepted the result.
Same way as I accept where I live we will always have a Labour MP and a Labour City Council, it doesn`t represent the electorate as well as it should. I`m all for PR btw.

This 3 years of can kicking has achieved nothing, except create division & uncertainty.
One of the many reasons folk should back a fixed deadline and getting it sorted out and not walking away because the peoples choice was too "difficult".

Yeah but no but. This is about Scotland, so it's their business.

This whole concept of your first two sentences here is nonsense though. You can't apply simplistic logic to these votes. The vote for the Union campaign specifically referenced the Union as providing certainty about staying in the EU. The Brexit referendum changed that completely. It is, frankly, stupid to think that the Union referendum result was still valid after that material change. Referenda aren't devices to trap people into decisions before switching the conditions!

The idea that it is this ridiculously simple ("out means out", "will of the people") only seems to have arisen since the brexit referendum, as if there are a bunch of people who voted then for the first time and are now amazed that people change their minds as the world changes around them.
 

RyanioBirdio

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If people think Brexit is a messy topic, given the difficulty and uncertainty in unravelling 40-something years of paperwork, try unravelling hundreds of years' worth of a far closer union. Most of my family is Scottish and I've not found one single person, be it them or any other Scot I encounter, who can tell me why Scottish independence is a good idea if Brexit is a bad one. Not one person can answer me that in a short, simple manner that makes any sense.

Scottish Independence and Brexit are the same thing - just a nationalist crusade geared towards flicking the Vs at people you don't like, but you don't even really know why you don't like them. And at the end of it you end up with an enormous headache and a great big mess that doesn't leave you better off, but at least you 'won'. It's all the same, only this is arguably a far worse idea.

Scotland will leave the Union in the next five years, one way or the other. It isn't even linked to Brexit happening anymore. Brexit could be called off entirely and the SNP would merely twist the angle to say "Look how close of a call that was, we can't risk that again, let's get out". It's happening.
 
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