National News Scottish Independence

[Foley]

Scottish Income Tax shortfall offset by UK Funding

Scottish Government's £941 million income tax shortfall offset by £737 million increase in UK Government funding

www.gov.uk

So it is probably more likely that Scotland will vote for Independence next time.
In theory if the UK are out of the EU by then, Scotland would have to apply for membership of the EU, and according to EU rules any new Country joining has to go into the Euro.

Plus the finances. The SNP dont have a great record of running the economy and seeing the comments above, makes you wonder how it will all work out for Scotland?

 

[Big Ronaldo]

Laughably pathetic how wee jimmy krankie offers up the SNP vote for Mr Jeremy in exchange for another Indyref.
Lib Dem’s flirting with the greens and old Brexit party cosying up to blue boy boris. Seems to me that politicians have spent so long climbing into bed with each other that they should all move to Swindon!???

 

[BotleyOx]

We have been bailing them out since the 1700s

 

[Essexyellows]

They had their "once in a generation" chance in 2014.

Alex Salmond: 'This is a once in a generation opportunity for Scotland'

Scotland's First Minister has said the independence vote is a "once in a generation" opportunity as he pledged not to bring back another referendum if Scots choose to remain in the UK

www.telegraph.co.uk

The referendum question was, "Should Scotland be an independent country?"..... sound familiar ?? ?
Voters answered with "Yes" or "No" ..... sound familiar? ?

The "No" side won with 2,001,926 (55.3%) voting against independence and 1,617,989 (44.7%) voting in favour.

The turnout of 84.6% was the highest recorded for an election or referendum in the United Kingdom.

I`m guessing an 11% margin isn`t enough for losers either? Sound familiar? ?

 

[Briggsy]

And, again, circumstances have materially changed since the previous referendum. Scots were told that staying in the UK would guarantee their remaining in the EU. That's changed. Let them have another vote, if they want it.

One thing I do hope in the event of a second Scottish independence referendum is that they learn from the balls-up we've had with Brexit and stipulate that a super majority of at least 60-40 will be needed to implement independence.

 

[Sarge]

A Scotsman walks into a pub

Usually there would be an Englishman, Irishman and Welshman there, but theyre still in Japan

Havent Scotland already exited the (rugby) Union ( world cup)

 

[Essexyellows]

And, again, circumstances have materially changed since the previous referendum. Scots were told that staying in the UK would guarantee their remaining in the EU. That's changed. Let them have another vote, if they want it.

One thing I do hope in the event of a second Scottish independence referendum is that they learn from the balls-up we've had with Brexit and stipulate that a super majority of at least 60-40 will be needed to implement independence.

The Scots voted in the EU referendum as well.............................as part of the UK, the UK they had voted to remain in!

 

[Briggsy]

The Scots voted in the EU referendum as well.............................as part of the UK, the UK they had voted to remain in!

I have some sympathy for that point. But though it may be technically correct, I don't believe it has any moral weight. I think it self-evident that it is wrong to deny a well defined national group a say over its own future if a fundamental aspect of its relationship with others has changed.

Simple test: what would you want if it were England rather than Scotland in this position?

 

[Foley]

I have some sympathy for that point. But though it may be technically correct, I don't believe it has any moral weight. I think it self-evident that it is wrong to deny a well defined national group a say over its own future if a fundamental aspect of its relationship with others has changed.

Simple test: what would you want if it were England rather than Scotland in this position?

That's the interesting one.
I am English and really dont care much whether Scotland are Independent or not
If I was Scottish I would be a little concerned about the economic impact of Independence. It seems to me that Scotland have done pretty well financially recently (free University places, free prescriptions (I believe??) and more per capita spent in the population than in England)
Plus has Scotland achieved Independence in the last vote, it may have been easier for them to have stayed in the EU on the then terms.

 

[Gary Baldi]

If I were a Scot, while the concept of independence is nice in a Braveheart sort of a way, I wouldn't trust the SNP to do it or join the EU again. Their record up there is mixed at best when not talking about independence. The fact they think that the EU will be fine with no border to England is rather fanciful considering what we have now in NI and ROI.

And as we know in Brexit, the UK can say it's not a binding vote, so eff off. Bet the SNP won't like being on the other side of that one, and people like me will love pointing out the irony.

 

[chuckbert]

Essexyellow - Irony much?
Do you think anyone in Scotland gives a toss what the English think, any more than you give a toss about what Europe thinks?

 

[Foley]

If I were a Scot, while the concept of independence is nice in a Braveheart sort of a way, I wouldn't trust the SNP to do it or join the EU again. Their record up there is mixed at best when not talking about independence. The fact they think that the EU will be fine with no border to England is rather fanciful considering what we have now in NI and ROI.

I have no doubt that the SNP will want to re join the EU. But you are right re the 'border'. How on earth would that work based on the problems being encountered in trying to find a solution in Ireland?
Presumably there would be passports each way, Scotland would be in the Euro and what about goods being transported each way.

I expect that there are big structural issues that are a little different from the UK and EU. So is it easy to ' split ' the National Grid' ?

One side effect I hope does happen is thay we have to no longer have our media take as much interest in Scottish football ?

 

[Gary Baldi]

I have no doubt that the SNP will want to re join the EU. But you are right re the 'border'. How on earth would that work based on the problems being encountered in trying to find a solution in Ireland?
Presumably there would be passports each way, Scotland would be in the Euro and what about goods being transported each way.

I expect that there are big structural issues that are a little different from the UK and EU. So is it easy to ' split ' the National Grid' ?

One side effect I hope does happen is thay we have to no longer have our media take as much interest in Scottish football ?

I know. I saw an interview with an SNP spokesman the other day who clearly had not thought about the border issue until the interviewer asked the very thing - naive. The fact SNP can't run their own health service or schools well, I'd be worried about the bigger issues that the UK struggle to do if they were in charge.

I know Brexiteers are called fantasists, but what does that make the SNP? Serial fantasists at best.

As much as I try, Scottish football is awful.

 

[Essexyellows]

I have some sympathy for that point. But though it may be technically correct, I don't believe it has any moral weight. I think it self-evident that it is wrong to deny a well defined national group a say over its own future if a fundamental aspect of its relationship with others has changed.

Simple test: what would you want if it were England rather than Scotland in this position?

The United Kingdom has been around a sight longer than the EU, their referendum for independence took place before the EU vote...... are they just choosing their masters? Westminster or Brussels?

 

[Gary Baldi]

The United Kingdom has been around a sight longer than the EU, their referendum for independence took place before the EU vote...... are they just choosing their masters? Westminster or Brussels?

In the EU, will they have less say and influence than staying? The UK is collectively a bigger beast than Scotland and the fact they seem to think they can keep the Pound sums them up.

 

[SteMerritt]

In the EU, will they have less say and influence than staying? The UK is collectively a bigger beast than Scotland and the fact they seem to think they can keep the Pound sums them up.

How does what you've put differ from this...

In the WORLD, will they have less say and influence than staying? The EU is collectively a bigger beast than THE UK

 

[Morris Oxford]

I may be wrong but I thought that if a new country now applies to join the EU they are obliged to adopt the Euro currency, therefore no more pound.

 

[Essexyellows]

Essexyellow - Irony much?
Do you think anyone in Scotland gives a toss what the English think, any more than you give a toss about what Europe thinks?

The people who voted to Remain in the Union had the majority.
The people who voted to Leave the EU had the majority.

Its not difficult but it could very easily become a circular debate going nowhere, especially if losers are given a voice further than the business of getting off the sofa and voting when the opportunity arises.

Had we voted to remain in the EU, as in `75, then I would, personally, have accepted the result.
Same way as I accept where I live we will always have a Labour MP and a Labour City Council, it doesn`t represent the electorate as well as it should. I`m all for PR btw.

This 3 years of can kicking has achieved nothing, except create division & uncertainty.
One of the many reasons folk should back a fixed deadline and getting it sorted out and not walking away because the peoples choice was too "difficult".

 

[chuckbert]

The people who voted to Remain in the Union had the majority.
The people who voted to Leave the EU had the majority.

Its not difficult but it could very easily become a circular debate going nowhere, especially if losers are given a voice further than the business of getting off the sofa and voting when the opportunity arises.

Had we voted to remain in the EU, as in `75, then I would, personally, have accepted the result.
Same way as I accept where I live we will always have a Labour MP and a Labour City Council, it doesn`t represent the electorate as well as it should. I`m all for PR btw.

This 3 years of can kicking has achieved nothing, except create division & uncertainty.
One of the many reasons folk should back a fixed deadline and getting it sorted out and not walking away because the peoples choice was too "difficult".

Yeah but no but. This is about Scotland, so it's their business.

This whole concept of your first two sentences here is nonsense though. You can't apply simplistic logic to these votes. The vote for the Union campaign specifically referenced the Union as providing certainty about staying in the EU. The Brexit referendum changed that completely. It is, frankly, stupid to think that the Union referendum result was still valid after that material change. Referenda aren't devices to trap people into decisions before switching the conditions!

The idea that it is this ridiculously simple ("out means out", "will of the people") only seems to have arisen since the brexit referendum, as if there are a bunch of people who voted then for the first time and are now amazed that people change their minds as the world changes around them.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

If people think Brexit is a messy topic, given the difficulty and uncertainty in unravelling 40-something years of paperwork, try unravelling hundreds of years' worth of a far closer union. Most of my family is Scottish and I've not found one single person, be it them or any other Scot I encounter, who can tell me why Scottish independence is a good idea if Brexit is a bad one. Not one person can answer me that in a short, simple manner that makes any sense.

Scottish Independence and Brexit are the same thing - just a nationalist crusade geared towards flicking the Vs at people you don't like, but you don't even really know why you don't like them. And at the end of it you end up with an enormous headache and a great big mess that doesn't leave you better off, but at least you 'won'. It's all the same, only this is arguably a far worse idea.

Scotland will leave the Union in the next five years, one way or the other. It isn't even linked to Brexit happening anymore. Brexit could be called off entirely and the SNP would merely twist the angle to say "Look how close of a call that was, we can't risk that again, let's get out". It's happening.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

If Scotland can become independent and then join the EU (which is what I think they want - feel free to correct me!) - then it could make sense(ish!). The Scots have always had close links with the Irish and the French - and the North of Scotland is almost Scandinavia

 

[Essexyellows]

Yeah but no but. This is about Scotland, so it's their business.

This whole concept of your first two sentences here is nonsense though. You can't apply simplistic logic to these votes. The vote for the Union campaign specifically referenced the Union as providing certainty about staying in the EU. The Brexit referendum changed that completely. It is, frankly, stupid to think that the Union referendum result was still valid after that material change. Referenda aren't devices to trap people into decisions before switching the conditions!

The idea that it is this ridiculously simple ("out means out", "will of the people") only seems to have arisen since the brexit referendum, as if there are a bunch of people who voted then for the first time and are now amazed that people change their minds as the world changes around them.

Ironic that the Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems campaigned as "Better Together"..... with little mention of the EU in their campaigning.

So are we heading for an eternal world of referenda because someone might have changed their mind??

Just because something happened isn`t sufficient justification to crave referendum after referendum as we have learnt they are a blunt tool to resolve a complex issue!

Either that or make them legally binding, the day after the vote whatever we, the people, decide is enacted job done.

Its the uncertainty that kills and gives those who came second false hope.

Remember it has been 40+ years until we had a second vote about the EEC/EU....

 

[Essexyellows]

If Scotland can become independent and then join the EU (which is what I think they want - feel free to correct me!) - then it could make sense(ish!). The Scots have always had close links with the Irish and the French - and the North of Scotland is almost Scandinavia

And the foundations for the wall are still there............ **



**NB... humorous comment referring to Hadrians Wall.

 

[windmill]

No more free prescriptions.

 

[carefreeoufc]

Was listening to one of the SNP MPs in London being interviewed yesterday morning. When it came to funding of a national army, Air Force or navy the MP didn’t have a clue on cost or how they’d do it. His opinion was that the EU would let them keep the pound and that Scotland would join the EU almost acting as a middle man/broker between England and the EU.

The limited resource that is North Sea oil that seems to get bandied round as if it’s a limitless pot of gold will only go so far too. I can’t say I have any real affinity to Scotland or the Scottish people and wouldn’t be overly bothered if they did get independence. The people I work with up there never seem to be overly enamoured of the English which has probably tainted how I get on with them.

As has been said I think it will happen in the next few years and it definitely won’t be pretty! I don’t think there’s anyone in this country (certainly those advocating we leave the EU) that can say anything other than “let them have a vote on it”. Times have changed and the people of Scotland in the latest UK referendum sided firmly with the EU.

 

[LowerSouth]

Throughout the whole Brexit debacle, it has become increasingly clear that the SNP have had only one aim-Independence.
Because of that,I have become increasingly anti the party.
On the other hand,I think the UK would be a lesser entity without them.

 

[tonyw]

I may be wrong but I thought that if a new country now applies to join the EU they are obliged to adopt the Euro currency, therefore no more pound.

You're absolutely right - I believe it was actually part of the Maastrict treaty, we just got an opt out.
If you join the EU now, you're legally obliged to join the Euro. Although first your economy does have to be in regulatory alignment with the EU's, and I suspect Scotland's is way off. So they'll first be obliged to substantially reduce their deficit-to-GDP ratio. Meaning hello to more austerity.
They'll also be legally obliged to join Schengen, unless the EU gives them a special opt out.

Of course, this is assuming that the EU agrees to let them in in the first place. Spain may have something to say about that, if it wants to send a message to the Catalans and Basques.

That all being said - I lived in Scotland for several years, and have many Scottish friends. Almost across the board, they voted to stay in the Union, but most did so slightly grudgingly.....wanting Scotland to be an independent country, but realizing that it was probably economic suicide to do so.

If the UK does finally leave the EU, and if that does have some negative economic impact north of the border, then I suspect they would all be switching and Scottish independence would win in a landslide. Especially if the EU made positive noises about letting them in......

 

[m]

The Scots voted in the EU referendum as well.............................as part of the UK, the UK they had voted to remain in!

I guess a fair way to do it then would be to have an EU-wide vote on whether Britain should exit.

Seems a logical extension of your argument?

 

[Peterdev]

Give the Scots another vote. Let them go and then have another vote on to remain or stay.
i would imagine the vote would be more conclusive.
Then hopefully no more protests about, we don’t know what we were voting for.
Nicola Sturgeon will Get what she wants. Independence from the U.K. and subservience to Brussels with the EU.
we will vote out conclusively and the MPs can get on and do what they need to

 

[Gary Baldi]

How does what you've put differ from this...

It's actually really simple. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the world, so opportunities for trade, etc open up accordingly because of the size of our spending and our ability to trade on a high level - and our size and power in the EU is worth highlighting and loss for their presitige on the global stage. So while we have less influence leaving the EU, we are still collectively influential on a global stage. Scotland - you can't say any of that can you?