Salary cap confirmed

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Football needs to be run sustainably so each club doesn't make a loss. Football isn't like a tesco, councils loan money to football clubs because they see them as more than just a business and a way to show their electorate they are supporting their club. Outside the premier league Football clubs have shown time and time again they are incapable of running their finances. Liverpool don't make a loss neither do arsenal or Manchester united. Even a bournemouth can sell players to more than make up the gap upon relegation. There is little case for making a salary cap in the EPL. The lower leagues definitely so, ideally based upon turnover (even though the deal for the Ka$$am is so expensive for us) simply saying clubs make a profit. If Tiger gets fed up/other businesses poorly perform and we end up in the days of Herd with no money and 18 million debt (and debt is starting to get more expensive) then those calling for us to spend more will be part of the cause of our demise. Much like the family of a gambling addict wishing they wouldn't risk it or spending above their income but other "fans" cheering them on to spend more to chase that dream.
That said is see people "buying" new cars on PCP taking out mega mortgages and generally not living within their means so perhaps people are happy living for today i on the other hand am a lot more cautious and as long as oufc or any football club are treated like any other business and taxpayers (either national or local) aren't paying to bail them out then that is fine. It's a shame for a Bury though where 135 years of history is wiped out because football clubs (i include fans, managers chairman and players in this) are not capable of running themselves sustainably. At the end of the day if anyone can suggest a better and more easily enforceable a regulatable way to ensure clubs make a profit then I am all ears. The Man city and recent Derby manipulating of the financial fair play rules show those based upon turnover are impossible to enforce.
 
and buy bail them out i include local councils giving planning permission for new stadia because they sold off their last perfectly usable one.
 
MattyGreensLeftBoot said:
Football needs to be run sustainably so each club doesn't make a loss. Football isn't like a tesco, councils loan money to football clubs because they see them as more than just a business and a way to show their electorate they are supporting their club. Outside the premier league Football clubs have shown time and time again they are incapable of running their finances. Liverpool don't make a loss neither do arsenal or Manchester united. Even a bournemouth can sell players to more than make up the gap upon relegation. There is little case for making a salary cap in the EPL. The lower leagues definitely so, ideally based upon turnover (even though the deal for the Ka$$am is so expensive for us) simply saying clubs make a profit. If Tiger gets fed up/other businesses poorly perform and we end up in the days of Herd with no money and 18 million debt (and debt is starting to get more expensive) then those calling for us to spend more will be part of the cause of our demise. Much like the family of a gambling addict wishing they wouldn't risk it or spending above their income but other "fans" cheering them on to spend more to chase that dream.
That said is see people "buying" new cars on PCP taking out mega mortgages and generally not living within their means so perhaps people are happy living for today i on the other hand am a lot more cautious and as long as oufc or any football club are treated like any other business and taxpayers (either national or local) aren't paying to bail them out then that is fine. It's a shame for a Bury though where 135 years of history is wiped out because football clubs (i include fans, managers chairman and players in this) are not capable of running themselves sustainably. At the end of the day if anyone can suggest a better and more easily enforceable a regulatable way to ensure clubs make a profit then I am all ears. The Man city and recent Derby manipulating of the financial fair play rules show those based upon turnover are impossible to enforce.
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Only one question regarding your post you state councils lend money to football clubs? But have OCC lent money to Oxford Utd?
 
bazzer9461 said:
Only one question regarding your post you state councils lend money to football clubs? But have OCC lent money to Oxford Utd?
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Indirectly by giving BMW planning permission and using the money to fund Horspath Complex which in turn the City's football club uses. There have been lots of instances with other clubs though of direct loans from York through to Northampton and even Everton.
 
m said:
That doesn't make it sustainable though, markets crash.
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No its not really sustainable, look at what happened with Bury and what's happening with multiple other clubs, I'm just stating that's how it was up until the salary cap. Something needs to be done obviously, but I don't think a cap is right idea, I would say a refined and properly enforced version of what we had before would be a good idea
 
I'm open-minded to it.

Increasing competitiveness is a good thing, and it could help with that. I don't necessarily buy the line of thought that a relegated side would immediately bounce back for example.

I am fearful of the consequences of Championship sides not voting in a cap or, perhaps more crucially, limiting squad sizes.

The PL will of course do it's own thing and a seismic shift would be needed for them to consider it.
 
Bournemouth got relegated with a wage bill of £110million...just a tiny bit over the suggested £18million championship wage cap!!!
 
Steve Gilbert said:
Bournemouth got relegated with a wage bill of £110million...just a tiny bit over the suggested £18million championship wage cap!!!
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Indeed but many of those players would be sold now and if the wage cap was brought in then I would expect to see players having wage cuts written into their contract on relegation.
 
MattyGreensLeftBoot said:
Indeed but many of those players would be sold now and if the wage cap was brought in then I would expect to see players having wage cuts written into their contract on relegation.
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I know many have said that players wouldn't sign deals with relegation clauses in, but if it becomes standard across most clubs then they'll have little choice. And it might then stop those like Jack Rodwell who sat on a massive contract as Sunderland dropped through the leagues.

People complain about player power, so maybe performance related pay is the way forward. Do well, get rewarded. Get relegated, and it'll cost you! Might bring a little more integrity to the game.
 
Scotchegg said:
I know many have said that players wouldn't sign deals with relegation clauses in, but if it becomes standard across most clubs then they'll have little choice. And it might then stop those like Jack Rodwell who sat on a massive contract as Sunderland dropped through the leagues.

People complain about player power, so maybe performance related pay is the way forward. Do well, get rewarded. Get relegated, and it'll cost you! Might bring a little more integrity to the game.
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Performance related pay is a bit of a hot potato in a team game though. It's the squad/team that gets relegated rather than through any individual's mistakes and promoted through how well the team has done rather than any one player's brilliance. And what about those who get injured? Are they rewarded/punished like the rest? So you'd think there would have to be squad-wide incentives/disincentives. Not entirely disagreeing with you here, just wondering how it might work...
 
ZeroTheHero said:
Performance related pay is a bit of a hot potato in a team game though. It's the squad/team that gets relegated rather than through any individual's mistakes and promoted through how well the team has done rather than any one player's brilliance. And what about those who get injured? Are they rewarded/punished like the rest? So you'd think there would have to be squad-wide incentives/disincentives. Not entirely disagreeing with you here, just wondering how it might work...
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I guess it only works with a pay banding for each player linked to their contracted pay, but it won't be easy.
 
bazzer9461 said:
If what you say is correct about wage to turnover then what the hell are the EFL doing? A regular breach of FFP rules and the EFL being pansies and doing sweet fa yet any L1/2 club easy to discipline. I just hope the legal team for Macclesfield use this when they go before those overpaid corrupt b*stards
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So the Championship FFP rules have nothing to do with Wage-to-Turnover. They just say that clubs can't lose more than 39m quid over a three year period.

Which is lunacy, because an average Championship club can get themselves into a deep financial hole if they lose that sort of money.

But still, clubs like Wednesday and Derby have been unable to stick to even those sizable losses - which is why they ended up trying to cook their books with stadium sales and (at least in the former's case) wound up with a points deduction. Birmingham too, last year.
 
Scotchegg said:
I know many have said that players wouldn't sign deals with relegation clauses in, but if it becomes standard across most clubs then they'll have little choice. And it might then stop those like Jack Rodwell who sat on a massive contract as Sunderland dropped through the leagues.

People complain about player power, so maybe performance related pay is the way forward. Do well, get rewarded. Get relegated, and it'll cost you! Might bring a little more integrity to the game.
Click to expand...
Again though, and I know I'm probably getting boring beating this same old drum, if a Championship club has 20 players each on the average wage for that club post cap (assuming it's introduced) (roughly, 18m wage bill / 21 players = about 850k pa per player), and upon relegation they reduce every player's salary so that it matches the League One average (which, as discussed, is around 120k pa per player), you're asking each player to agree to a clause in a contract that would cut their salaries by about 85% overnight. That is MASSIVELY more than your typical relegation wage reduction clauses at the moment (which Football Manager leads me to believe is about 20%) and is surely unreasonable to expect young men trying to build a career to stomach. It generates a massive amount of financial uncertainty for players, and is presumably one of the grounds on which the PFA is challenging the measure. I don't see how that can become standard across clubs. (I will concede that between Leagues 1 and 2, it makes sense, as the gap is proportionally much smaller. But League 1 to Championship and Championship to Premiership? No way.)

The issue is probably even more acute with teams coming down from the Premier League to the Championship (assuming this cap is introduced in the latter) - you can introduce relegation release clauses for players, yes, but realistically only a handful of players from any relegated club are going to attract any interest from other Premier League clubs. For Bournemouth, Ake has obviously already gone, and you could see C Wilson, Ramsdale, Brooks and maybe King or Lerma getting bought, but that's really it - and that's from a reasonably established Premier League squad! Even selling those six and reducing wages for the remaining members of the squad (and only if it's a clause in their contract) is surely not going to get them anywhere NEAR an 18m pa wage cap. So you have to give relegated teams special dispensation to have a higher wage bill in the league below - thus leading to the whole '21 League One teams + 3 Championship teams down for the season' league structure people fear.
 
ttg17 said:
Again though, and I know I'm probably getting boring beating this same old drum, if a Championship club has 20 players each on the average wage for that club post cap (assuming it's introduced) (roughly, 18m wage bill / 21 players = about 850k pa per player), and upon relegation they reduce every player's salary so that it matches the League One average (which, as discussed, is around 120k pa per player), you're asking each player to agree to a clause in a contract that would cut their salaries by about 85% overnight. That is MASSIVELY more than your typical relegation wage reduction clauses at the moment (which Football Manager leads me to believe is about 20%) and is surely unreasonable to expect young men trying to build a career to stomach. It generates a massive amount of financial uncertainty for players, and is presumably one of the grounds on which the PFA is challenging the measure. I don't see how that can become standard across clubs. (I will concede that between Leagues 1 and 2, it makes sense, as the gap is proportionally much smaller. But League 1 to Championship and Championship to Premiership? No way.)

The issue is probably even more acute with teams coming down from the Premier League to the Championship (assuming this cap is introduced in the latter) - you can introduce relegation release clauses for players, yes, but realistically only a handful of players from any relegated club are going to attract any interest from other Premier League clubs. For Bournemouth, Ake has obviously already gone, and you could see C Wilson, Ramsdale, Brooks and maybe King or Lerma getting bought, but that's really it - and that's from a reasonably established Premier League squad! Even selling those six and reducing wages for the remaining members of the squad (and only if it's a clause in their contract) is surely not going to get them anywhere NEAR an 18m pa wage cap. So you have to give relegated teams special dispensation to have a higher wage bill in the league below - thus leading to the whole '21 League One teams + 3 Championship teams down for the season' league structure people fear.
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Yeah. It’s not hard.
 
ttg17 said:
So you have to give relegated teams special dispensation to have a higher wage bill in the league below - thus leading to the whole '21 League One teams + 3 Championship teams down for the season' league structure people fear.
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I agree with this - if you have three teams that have a squad good enough to earn £18m they are going to have a substantial advantage over those only able to offer a £2.5m total . The whole 'parachute payments' fiasco has only come about because of the TV money of course - if clubs were earning the money to pay their players by merchandise, gate receipts, sponsorship (?) etc then their income would not be *so* adversely affected by being relegated - but the question is how to solve it?
Take the TV money out of the game and it would (in it's current guise) fall apart within a week - and of course there are still enough TV companies more than willing to pay stupid money for the rights to show it, it is a very popular 'product'. So would we want the 'big boys' to swan off into a European league (taking much of the money with them) and then try to restructure the game in this country? Or would that just mean the remaining Prem clubs and the top Championship clubs become the 'new' Prem and we go round the same circle again?
I cannot actually think of a *practical* way of making the leagues more 'fair' again without some sort of Year Zero solution and that *is not* going to happen.
 
ttg17 said:
Again though, and I know I'm probably getting boring beating this same old drum, if a Championship club has 20 players each on the average wage for that club post cap (assuming it's introduced) (roughly, 18m wage bill / 21 players = about 850k pa per player), and upon relegation they reduce every player's salary so that it matches the League One average (which, as discussed, is around 120k pa per player), you're asking each player to agree to a clause in a contract that would cut their salaries by about 85% overnight. That is MASSIVELY more than your typical relegation wage reduction clauses at the moment (which Football Manager leads me to believe is about 20%) and is surely unreasonable to expect young men trying to build a career to stomach. It generates a massive amount of financial uncertainty for players, and is presumably one of the grounds on which the PFA is challenging the measure. I don't see how that can become standard across clubs. (I will concede that between Leagues 1 and 2, it makes sense, as the gap is proportionally much smaller. But League 1 to Championship and Championship to Premiership? No way.)

The issue is probably even more acute with teams coming down from the Premier League to the Championship (assuming this cap is introduced in the latter) - you can introduce relegation release clauses for players, yes, but realistically only a handful of players from any relegated club are going to attract any interest from other Premier League clubs. For Bournemouth, Ake has obviously already gone, and you could see C Wilson, Ramsdale, Brooks and maybe King or Lerma getting bought, but that's really it - and that's from a reasonably established Premier League squad! Even selling those six and reducing wages for the remaining members of the squad (and only if it's a clause in their contract) is surely not going to get them anywhere NEAR an 18m pa wage cap. So you have to give relegated teams special dispensation to have a higher wage bill in the league below - thus leading to the whole '21 League One teams + 3 Championship teams down for the season' league structure people fear.
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I could see that dispensation could be offered that allowed relegated teams to match all existing contracts to the league average but getting rid of, or reducing parachute payments.

Not saying it's perfect by any means, but that something has to give or we could lose a lot of clubs, and lower league football will be the hardest hit.
 
The teams coming down from the Championship of course have an advantage of their better players being classed at the average wage. But some of those will be sold due to relegation, and the cap means they can't be replaced with players on big wages in an attempt to 'bounce' out of the division.

Just depends on when L1 would count the squad from. Relegated teams who are down by April may do a lot of pre-contract work to ensure their next seasons squad are all within the averaged threshold.
 
tonyw said:
So the Championship FFP rules have nothing to do with Wage-to-Turnover. They just say that clubs can't lose more than 39m quid over a three year period.

Which is lunacy, because an average Championship club can get themselves into a deep financial hole if they lose that sort of money.

But still, clubs like Wednesday and Derby have been unable to stick to even those sizable losses - which is why they ended up trying to cook their books with stadium sales and (at least in the former's case) wound up with a points deduction. Birmingham too, last year.
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Hello t needs the EFL to grow some B*****s and deal with them but being so corrupt they won’t do something that could upset status quo of the championship
 
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