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International News Russian War With Ukraine

Stranger said:
Seems to me that we need a coalition of like-minded European countries to come together in an alliance. We could call it, I dunno, the European Union maybe
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It would be really convenient if those same countries also relied heavily on small to medium-sized farms for food production so that a communal way of keeping non-industrial farming economically viable could be implemented.
 
chromeyellow said:
Why does

I don’t see how anyone can hear accounts of the war in Ukraine- to say nothing of what’s happening in Gaza- without being upset.

That doesn’t mean that I think going to war is necessarily the right answer. Wars are a lot easier to start than to finish

When does somewhere become “British soil”by the way?
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Uh, when it's in Salisbury????
 
chuckbert said:
I think it’s just the “ we should put our troops in” bit. There’s a lot behind that 6 words. A lot of British death (and expense) on foreign soil. Ukraine is one of those slogs of a war and it could be like “putting our troops” into the Somme to try and end wwi quickly.
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Our boys are probably gagging to get out there and get stuck in. They (probably just the Marines, paratroopers and and special forces really) sign up because they want to see action.

We have some of the best forces in the world. There's an aggressor out there killing European civilians. They've attacked our infrastructure, are destabilising the continent, and the Ukrainians have softened them up for us.

The time is right to get stuck right into them. If America is dipping out, we should be striking while the iron is hot.
 
bashamwonderland said:
Our boys are probably gagging to get out there and get stuck in. They (probably just the Marines, paratroopers and and special forces really) sign up because they want to see action.

We have some of the best forces in the world. There's an aggressor out there killing European civilians. They've attacked our infrastructure, are destabilising the continent, and the Ukrainians have softened them up for us.

The time is right to get stuck right into them. If America is dipping out, we should be striking while the iron is hot.
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I feel like you've asked AI to generate you a military strategy in the style of Danny Dyer.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
It's amazing how we manage to be part of NATO without being in a political union with all the countries, isn't it?

It's almost like your remoaner arguments are totally irrelevant.
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That's true. However, Trump has spoken about the US pulling out of NATO and there are numerous other countries who could follow if this happened.

We could have then gone from being part of two major global entities to standing alone in a very short space of time. Regardless of political views, this could leave us significantly weaker and more vulnerable.

Some may say that this has been Russia's goal all along, and may talk of how they have looked to finance groups who were looking to break up these unions. They may also point to other events that have created political or social division over the last decade or so across multiple countries and ask questions of Russian influence or sources of misinformation.

But then they may question whether their patriotic beliefs have instead been manipulated to booster the aims of a foreign power, and that doesn't then fit right. So they will probably dismiss these things as woke conspiracy theory leftie rubbish.
 
Scotchegg said:
That's true. However, Trump has spoken about the US pulling out of NATO and there are numerous other countries who could follow if this happened.

We could have then gone from being part of two major global entities to standing alone in a very short space of time. Regardless of political views, this could leave us significantly weaker and more vulnerable.

Some may say that this has been Russia's goal all along, and may talk of how they have looked to finance groups who were looking to break up these unions. They may also point to other events that have created political or social division over the last decade or so across multiple countries and ask questions of Russian influence or sources of misinformation.

But then they may question whether their patriotic beliefs have instead been manipulated to booster the aims of a foreign power, and that doesn't then fit right. So they will probably dismiss these things as woke conspiracy theory leftie rubbish.
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It's a pretty hard argument to be having with the site's resident isolationist.
 
Scotchegg said:
That's true. However, Trump has spoken about the US pulling out of NATO and there are numerous other countries who could follow if this happened.

We could have then gone from being part of two major global entities to standing alone in a very short space of time. Regardless of political views, this could leave us significantly weaker and more vulnerable.

Some may say that this has been Russia's goal all along, and may talk of how they have looked to finance groups who were looking to break up these unions. They may also point to other events that have created political or social division over the last decade or so across multiple countries and ask questions of Russian influence or sources of misinformation.

But then they may question whether their patriotic beliefs have instead been manipulated to booster the aims of a foreign power, and that doesn't then fit right. So they will probably dismiss these things as woke conspiracy theory leftie rubbish.
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Blimey that's well expressed! Yes
 
bashamwonderland said:
Look, I've got the Passat warming up on the driveway. Me, Ross Kemp and Lee Bowyer are heading down to Kursk with a bag of charlie and a boot full of knuckle dusters.

We've got a spare seat. Are you coming or not?
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If Vinnie Jones can’t be bothered, then I’m out.
 
Big Ron said:
It's a pretty hard argument to be having with the site's resident isolationist.
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I will reply to the site's resident middle-class pontificator.

I don't really identify as particularly isolationist in one sense of the world. I'm pro a sensible level of immigration to the country, I also love visiting foreign countries and consuming their culture.

I don't want to be part of the EU partly because I don't like the entire concept of the EU. We don't need to be under one flag and currency, Europe's strength is it's different languages, cultures, beers, cheeses, the whole concept of the EU dilutes the most interesting continent on planet earth.

There is zero need for political union to act in each others interest on defence, trade and other matters.

I am slightly isolationist in the 'generally sceptical about getting involved in foreign conflicts' sense. But that's only generally. I actually semi-agree with @Eric Blair that maybe it's just time to properly back Ukraine.

The way I see it is there's two options with Ukraine:
1) properly back them with everything they need to actually beat Russia, push them back to the border, and win the war.
2) Negotiate for some kind of peace agreement, alongside Trumps America, it would be a horrible messy thing with parts of Ukraine gone forever like Crimea, but at least no more death.

This kind of back them just enough to stay in the fight strategy, pronlonging human tragedy doesn't seem to really make sense. Unlike many EU countries we haven't shirked our responsibility nearly as much. Germany was so reluctant to get involved as it sucked on Russia's gas-teet more than anyone.

I don't think my natural isolationism in terms of war is much different to many on here either, I doubt many of us did/would have supported the wars in Iraq or Vietnam. The governments responsibility should be focused on making the lives of British people as good as is possible, not acting as the world's arbiter.
 
Wandering Yellow said:
I don't think my natural isolationism in terms of war is much different to many on here either, I doubt many of us did/would have supported the wars in Iraq or Vietnam. The governments responsibility should be focused on making the lives of British people as good as is possible, not acting as the world's arbiter.
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It's not so much about acting as an arbiter, so much as preventing the invasion and occupation of a nation by another that's larger and more powerful. If the other powerful nations on Earth who are not (currently) imperialistic don't act, then you simply embolden and enable the imperialists. The world learnt that lesson in the 1930s, it shouldn't need to again.

As such, I have no argument at all with the 1st Iraq War - was a direct response to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, and was one of the broadest global coalitions imaginable.
(Course you can debate and argue forever about how much of the aftermath of that war they got wrong......which then directly led to the 2nd Iraq War which very few people are going to say they supported because it was very clearly an oil grab/9-11 revenge tour waged under blatantly false pretenses).
 
Wandering Yellow said:
I will reply to the site's resident middle-class pontificator.

I don't really identify as particularly isolationist in one sense of the world. I'm pro a sensible level of immigration to the country, I also love visiting foreign countries and consuming their culture.

I don't want to be part of the EU partly because I don't like the entire concept of the EU. We don't need to be under one flag and currency, Europe's strength is it's different languages, cultures, beers, cheeses, the whole concept of the EU dilutes the most interesting continent on planet earth.

There is zero need for political union to act in each others interest on defence, trade and other matters.

I am slightly isolationist in the 'generally sceptical about getting involved in foreign conflicts' sense. But that's only generally. I actually semi-agree with @Eric Blair that maybe it's just time to properly back Ukraine.

The way I see it is there's two options with Ukraine:
1) properly back them with everything they need to actually beat Russia, push them back to the border, and win the war.
2) Negotiate for some kind of peace agreement, alongside Trumps America, it would be a horrible messy thing with parts of Ukraine gone forever like Crimea, but at least no more death.

This kind of back them just enough to stay in the fight strategy, pronlonging human tragedy doesn't seem to really make sense. Unlike many EU countries we haven't shirked our responsibility nearly as much. Germany was so reluctant to get involved as it sucked on Russia's gas-teet more than anyone.

I don't think my natural isolationism in terms of war is much different to many on here either, I doubt many of us did/would have supported the wars in Iraq or Vietnam. The governments responsibility should be focused on making the lives of British people as good as is possible, not acting as the world's arbiter.
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I’m going to avoid the name calling, I’m sure you’ll do enough for both of us and then whine about why I haven’t been banned, as previously, and why I do my best not to engage with your many lengthy, repetitive posts. However, just this week you’ve posted comments regarding our membership of the ECHR and wider food standard regulations. In both cases you questioned, at some length, why we need either and don’t just have our own laws and framework.

Someone did point out that you seemed to be conflating the EU and ECHR, of which we were a founding member, and that it’s quite a benefit to have a set of mutually agreed food standards to allow for food safety in import and export. Your views in these instances are pure Faragist isolationism.
 
Big Ron said:
I’m going to avoid the name calling, I’m sure you’ll do enough for both of us and then whine about why I haven’t been banned, as previously, and why I do my best not to engage with your many lengthy, repetitive posts. However, just this week you’ve posted comments regarding our membership of the ECHR and wider food standard regulations. In both cases you questioned, at some length, why we need either and don’t just have our own laws and framework.

Someone did point out that you seemed to be conflating the EU and ECHR, of which we were a founding member, and that it’s quite a benefit to have a set of mutually agreed food standards to allow for food safety in import and export. Your views in these instances are pure Faragist isolationism.
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Also in terms of security. The future of the world is going to be led by five competing blocs - the US, China, Russia, India and Europe. Standing alone we are limited in what we can influence (and thereby protect our interests). By being part of Europe (and actually leading Europe) we would be in a much better place to influence the world and our interests within it.

The argument about sovereignty and the EU never worked for me. There was no reason pre-Cameron that the UK could have led Europe by galvanising the Eastern European countries like Poland. France and Germany is seen as the power axis of the EU but actually the UK - with concerted political will - could have led Europe with a coalition of other countries but Cameron threw that opportunity away when he sided with the crazy extreme right bloc in the EU to appease the right of his party at home. The damage that man did to this country and international standing in incalculable
 
Big Ron said:
I’m going to avoid the name calling, I’m sure you’ll do enough for both of us and then whine about why I haven’t been banned, as previously, and why I do my best not to engage with your many lengthy, repetitive posts. However, just this week you’ve posted comments regarding our membership of the ECHR and wider food standard regulations. In both cases you questioned, at some length, why we need either and don’t just have our own laws and framework.

Someone did point out that you seemed to be conflating the EU and ECHR, of which we were a founding member, and that it’s quite a benefit to have a set of mutually agreed food standards to allow for food safety in import and export. Your views in these instances are pure Faragist isolationism.
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Don't act like you're above name calling.

You do it in your own arrogant, snide and elitist way on here and you always have done.
 
Eric Blair said:
Also in terms of security. The future of the world is going to be led by five competing blocs - the US, China, Russia, India and Europe. Standing alone we are limited in what we can influence (and thereby protect our interests). By being part of Europe (and actually leading Europe) we would be in a much better place to influence the world and our interests within it.

The argument about sovereignty and the EU never worked for me. There was no reason pre-Cameron that the UK could have led Europe by galvanising the Eastern European countries like Poland. France and Germany is seen as the power axis of the EU but actually the UK - with concerted political will - could have led Europe with a coalition of other countries but Cameron threw that opportunity away when he sided with the crazy extreme right bloc in the EU to appease the right of his party at home. The damage that man did to this country and international standing in incalculable
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You've listed Russia as a future global trading superpower, but not the Middle East or Brazil/South America?? Are we all toast? 🤔
 
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