National Politics 🔴 The Labour Party

U Turn Number 14?



Albeit I can see why they would cancel them before they get re-structured in a year or two.

Still seeing HMG squirm is always a good thing. :)
I think even you agreed on here that the decision to cancel these elections was correct as there is no point in having costly to run elections for councils that are soon to be abolished.

The truth is, because Reform wants to play pointless games it created two options for Labour, waste money on a court case taking up precious bandwidth and resources or waste money on elections. Thanks Reform. Country first my a**e.
 
I think even you agreed on here that the decision to cancel these elections was correct as there is no point in having costly to run elections for councils that are soon to be abolished.

The truth is, because Reform wants to play pointless games it created two options for Labour, waste money on a court case taking up precious bandwidth and resources or waste money on elections. Thanks Reform. Country first my a**e.

Had Labour been in opposition do you think they wouldn’t have taken any chance to give the government a kicking?
 
I think even you agreed on here that the decision to cancel these elections was correct as there is no point in having costly to run elections for councils that are soon to be abolished.

The truth is, because Reform wants to play pointless games it created two options for Labour, waste money on a court case taking up precious bandwidth and resources or waste money on elections. Thanks Reform. Country first my a**e.

I know I did which is why I said so.

Seems a bit of a rock and a hard place call............... hold a vote for positions likely to be gone in 2 years or don`t hold a vote and get accused of damaging democracy.

As it happens I`ll agree with @SteMerritt that you would expect HMG to check the legal aspect first..... ho hum.

It`s going to be a blood bath. :)
 
Maybe it's just because I'm older and more miserable (it probably is) but I used to watch question time and quite enjoy it. I haven't seen it in years now because all that happens is:

Left wing guest says left wing soundbite. Left wing audience members clap like seals.

Right wing guest says right wing soundbite. Right wing guests clap like seals.

Before Brexit seemed to reveal we are two tribes who hate each other I am sure it was better than that.

Not just slagging off QT there. Other political panel shows I used to watch are the same.

Honestly, I don't think it was the Brexit vote that was to blame; exactly the same (in fact, probably even worse) has happened in America, and that excuse doesn't exist here.

I'm more inclined to point the finger at social media, which has led us into this post-truth age where the majority now just lives in their own political bubble, bombarded with stories that amplify their natural viewpoints and vilify anything or anyone that's contrary to that. What's true or rational or pragmatic takes a back seat now to whatever is most likely to beat the other side, and own the libs/fascists.

If I was emperor of the world, I would force everyone to spend equal amounts of time reading media that is contrary to their natural prejudices. Want to spend 30 minutes reading the Telegraph online? That's cool - but now you've got to spend 30 minutes reading the Guardian as well before you log off. Want to watch GB News before you go to bed? That's cool, but here's your copy of the Socialist Worker, and there's going to be a test in the morning. And vice versa!
 
Reform will clean up in the locals. And as sad as that will be for all of us to have to endure and the sheer damage they'll do.....

....it will also give the electorate 3 whole years of carnage to see just what a disaster they are when in charge of anything.

Plenty of evidence of that already of course, but this will be the length and breadth of the country, not just a few councils where their ineptitude will shine through.

Popcorn at the ready, folks🍿
 
Don't know but you seem to be acknowledging that this is exactly what Reform is doing.

The vote is a waste of time and a waste of money, but ultimately it is how democracy works. Of course Reform pursued this to their own ends, they’re power hungry politicians just like the rest.

The real embarrassment here is the lack of insight from someone who was our top UK legal eagle failing to ensure the decision of putting back such a vote was robust enough to stand up to legal scrutiny .

He just can’t stop bouncing from one pothole to another.

At some point he’s going to do a Vicar of Dibley and go right under. I doubt many will be rushing to pull him out either.
 
The vote is a waste of time and a waste of money, but ultimately it is how democracy works. Of course Reform pursued this to their own ends, they’re power hungry politicians just like the rest.

The real embarrassment here is the lack of insight from someone who was our top UK legal eagle failing to ensure the decision of putting back such a vote was robust enough to stand up to legal scrutiny .

He just can’t stop bouncing from one pothole to another.

At some point he’s going to do a Vicar of Dibley and go right under. I doubt many will be rushing to pull him out either.
Yes the legals aren't clear cut (but when are they?) but the bottom line is that this was proposed so as not to waste money but clearly Reform don't mind wasting tax payers money.
 
Yes the legals aren't clear cut (but when are they?) but the bottom line is that this was proposed so as not to waste money but clearly Reform don't mind wasting tax payers money.
Hold on, back in May 2024 you were in another thread debating with Marston about the importance of voting, and how people fought for universal suffrage so it's really important for us to engage fully???

You said:

Millions of pounds are 'wasted' on elections that doesn't mean we shouldn't engage in the democratic process, in fact we shouldn't we be grateful to those that do?

Why has your position changed? On one hand, Reform don't care about wasting money and that's bad. On the other hand, you seem to be shrugging off the concept of electoral "waste".

Which is it?
 
Hold on, back in May 2024 you were in another thread debating with Marston about the importance of voting, and how people fought for universal suffrage so it's really important for us to engage fully???

You said:



Why has your position changed? On one hand, Reform don't care about wasting money and that's bad. On the other hand, you seem to be shrugging off the concept of electoral "waste".

Which is it?
Because it's not denying people the vote it's simple delaying it by a year or two to save a ton of money.
 
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Honestly, I don't think it was the Brexit vote that was to blame; exactly the same (in fact, probably even worse) has happened in America, and that excuse doesn't exist here.

I'm more inclined to point the finger at social media, which has led us into this post-truth age where the majority now just lives in their own political bubble, bombarded with stories that amplify their natural viewpoints and vilify anything or anyone that's contrary to that. What's true or rational or pragmatic takes a back seat now to whatever is most likely to beat the other side, and own the libs/fascists.

If I was emperor of the world, I would force everyone to spend equal amounts of time reading media that is contrary to their natural prejudices. Want to spend 30 minutes reading the Telegraph online? That's cool - but now you've got to spend 30 minutes reading the Guardian as well before you log off. Want to watch GB News before you go to bed? That's cool, but here's your copy of the Socialist Worker, and there's going to be a test in the morning. And vice versa!
I think you're about 90% correct.

My only argument against social media being the main cause of division would be, haven't we been very divided like this before in the 1980's before social media existed?

I didn't live through the 1980s but from the documentaries it seems like it was a very divided and angry time in British politics, maybe even close to what we are seeing today?

I'd also say there was something almost unique about the way Brexit tore the public apart. I think it's when political debate took a really dangerous moralistic turn (and I say that as someone who supports Brexit and wanted the referendum)

It felt like the major issue it was fought on became immigration. We had the democratic deficit argument in there, self-determination yes, but immigration dominated on both sides of the argument.

Remain were overwhelmingly favourites to win. Even on the day of the vote leave was something like 10/1. Then the result comes in and it's leave. Suddenly there's a reckoning. Are 52% of the country racist and intolerant?

Are people who think differently to me actively evil? Is Farage literally hitler? If Farage is Hitler surely I'm morally obligated to hate his supporters.

Meanwhile leave voters get riled up by talks of Russian interference and a second referendum.
Two tribes emerge.

Then there's the Black Lives Matter movement where footballers are suddenly taking the knee and race is at the forefront of the news. One side thinks it's being forced on them and the other thinks it's all fair game. Generally leave voters (often white working class) are sceptic of the movement and remain voters back it.

Which leads us into COVID. Generally speaking remain voters back vaccines and lockdowns and leave voters are sceptical of vaccines and lockdowns. This again falls into the trope of... Is the other side actually evil?

One side things they're being locked up against there will and having things forced open them, one side thinks people against lockdowns and vaccines are essentially responsible for deaths.

Add to that Trumps second term and the US split even more extremely than the UK and you have a recipe for absolute mistrust, anger and division.

Since Brexit it's felt like one thing after another is two tribes where it's more than just "the other side are wrong" it's "the other side are evil"

But where I think you are right is social media has exacerbated things massively.

1. Clips. Short form clips do really well on social media. If someone goes on question time they're looking to get in a killer quote or opposition put-down that will go viral on social media.

2. Constant access/ echo chambers. Say you're of the opinion trump is literally hitler, you can access supporting evidence 24/7 of ICE deportations, people saying slurs, a constant steam of confirmation bias.

Say you think illegal immigration is too high. You can access story after story of illegal immigrants doing bad things. Confirming your world view even more.

This adds to the sense the other side is ideologically evil.

I think the combination of post-Brexit tribalism and social media has made political "debate" shows just utterly pointless. How many people who watch question time are not sure who they will vote for in the next election? I bet it's very few.

People just want to see the people they agree with eviscerate their political enemies.

I think most really politically interested/active people have made their minds up by the time they're an adult. The results of elections are probably decided not by those of us who watch political shows and talk politics on X and internet forums, but by people who avoid all of it.
 
I think you're about 90% correct.

My only argument against social media being the main cause of division would be, haven't we been very divided like this before in the 1980's before social media existed?

I didn't live through the 1980s but from the documentaries it seems like it was a very divided and angry time in British politics, maybe even close to what we are seeing today?

I'd also say there was something almost unique about the way Brexit tore the public apart. I think it's when political debate took a really dangerous moralistic turn (and I say that as someone who supports Brexit and wanted the referendum)

It felt like the major issue it was fought on became immigration. We had the democratic deficit argument in there, self-determination yes, but immigration dominated on both sides of the argument.

Remain were overwhelmingly favourites to win. Even on the day of the vote leave was something like 10/1. Then the result comes in and it's leave. Suddenly there's a reckoning. Are 52% of the country racist and intolerant?

Are people who think differently to me actively evil? Is Farage literally hitler? If Farage is Hitler surely I'm morally obligated to hate his supporters.

Meanwhile leave voters get riled up by talks of Russian interference and a second referendum.
Two tribes emerge.

Then there's the Black Lives Matter movement where footballers are suddenly taking the knee and race is at the forefront of the news. One side thinks it's being forced on them and the other thinks it's all fair game. Generally leave voters (often white working class) are sceptic of the movement and remain voters back it.

Which leads us into COVID. Generally speaking remain voters back vaccines and lockdowns and leave voters are sceptical of vaccines and lockdowns. This again falls into the trope of... Is the other side actually evil?

One side things they're being locked up against there will and having things forced open them, one side thinks people against lockdowns and vaccines are essentially responsible for deaths.

Add to that Trumps second term and the US split even more extremely than the UK and you have a recipe for absolute mistrust, anger and division.

Since Brexit it's felt like one thing after another is two tribes where it's more than just "the other side are wrong" it's "the other side are evil"

But where I think you are right is social media has exacerbated things massively.

1. Clips. Short form clips do really well on social media. If someone goes on question time they're looking to get in a killer quote or opposition put-down that will go viral on social media.

2. Constant access/ echo chambers. Say you're of the opinion trump is literally hitler, you can access supporting evidence 24/7 of ICE deportations, people saying slurs, a constant steam of confirmation bias.

Say you think illegal immigration is too high. You can access story after story of illegal immigrants doing bad things. Confirming your world view even more.

This adds to the sense the other side is ideologically evil.

I think the combination of post-Brexit tribalism and social media has made political "debate" shows just utterly pointless. How many people who watch question time are not sure who they will vote for in the next election? I bet it's very few.

People just want to see the people they agree with eviscerate their political enemies.

I think most really politically interested/active people have made their minds up by the time they're an adult. The results of elections are probably decided not by those of us who watch political shows and talk politics on X and internet forums, but by people who avoid all of it.
TLDR

Now THAT'S irony😉🤣
 
Because it's not denying people the vote it's simple delaying it by a year or two to save a ton of money.

It’s like the Essex yellows of the tories in power years and you have just swapped places 😂.
 
It’s like the Essex yellows of the tories in power years and you have just swapped places 😂.
Well if you think councils who already don't have enough money to repair pot holes should be wasting hundreds of thousands of pounds electing councillors to councils that will no longer exist in two years time then so be it. 🤦
 
I think you're about 90% correct.

My only argument against social media being the main cause of division would be, haven't we been very divided like this before in the 1980's before social media existed?

I didn't live through the 1980s but from the documentaries it seems like it was a very divided and angry time in British politics, maybe even close to what we are seeing today?

I'd also say there was something almost unique about the way Brexit tore the public apart. I think it's when political debate took a really dangerous moralistic turn (and I say that as someone who supports Brexit and wanted the referendum)

It felt like the major issue it was fought on became immigration. We had the democratic deficit argument in there, self-determination yes, but immigration dominated on both sides of the argument.

Remain were overwhelmingly favourites to win. Even on the day of the vote leave was something like 10/1. Then the result comes in and it's leave. Suddenly there's a reckoning. Are 52% of the country racist and intolerant?

Are people who think differently to me actively evil? Is Farage literally hitler? If Farage is Hitler surely I'm morally obligated to hate his supporters.

Meanwhile leave voters get riled up by talks of Russian interference and a second referendum.
Two tribes emerge.

Then there's the Black Lives Matter movement where footballers are suddenly taking the knee and race is at the forefront of the news. One side thinks it's being forced on them and the other thinks it's all fair game. Generally leave voters (often white working class) are sceptic of the movement and remain voters back it.

Which leads us into COVID. Generally speaking remain voters back vaccines and lockdowns and leave voters are sceptical of vaccines and lockdowns. This again falls into the trope of... Is the other side actually evil?

One side things they're being locked up against there will and having things forced open them, one side thinks people against lockdowns and vaccines are essentially responsible for deaths.

Add to that Trumps second term and the US split even more extremely than the UK and you have a recipe for absolute mistrust, anger and division.

Since Brexit it's felt like one thing after another is two tribes where it's more than just "the other side are wrong" it's "the other side are evil"

But where I think you are right is social media has exacerbated things massively.

1. Clips. Short form clips do really well on social media. If someone goes on question time they're looking to get in a killer quote or opposition put-down that will go viral on social media.

2. Constant access/ echo chambers. Say you're of the opinion trump is literally hitler, you can access supporting evidence 24/7 of ICE deportations, people saying slurs, a constant steam of confirmation bias.

Say you think illegal immigration is too high. You can access story after story of illegal immigrants doing bad things. Confirming your world view even more.

This adds to the sense the other side is ideologically evil.

I think the combination of post-Brexit tribalism and social media has made political "debate" shows just utterly pointless. How many people who watch question time are not sure who they will vote for in the next election? I bet it's very few.

People just want to see the people they agree with eviscerate their political enemies.

I think most really politically interested/active people have made their minds up by the time they're an adult. The results of elections are probably decided not by those of us who watch political shows and talk politics on X and internet forums, but by people who avoid all of it.

So much to unpack in that, and I don't have a lot of time, so I'm just going to respond to make three completely unconnected responses.....

1) I think you're right that people conflated Brexit and Immigration......but of course as it turned out, they were completely wrong to do so. The four years with the highest net migration to the UK in history, are four out of the five years immediately following the implementation of Brexit (with the only exception being the Covid year, when noone was moving). If people had actually known the truth about Brexit i.e. it's going to mean more red tape for businesses, more challenges for Brits traveling to Europe and more immigration to the UK......I bet the result would have turned out different.

2) Even as someone who is naturally extremely socially liberal.....Black Lives Matter in the UK to me is a very strange one. Its origins are uniquely American, born out of literal centuries of slavery, apartheid and racial oppression, and to try and apply it wholesale in the UK (where I would argue there is perhaps more casual racism, but far, far less of a history of structural racism) is an odd one

3) Agree on the confirmation bias, which is why I think the healthiest thing for everyone to do is read news from the 'other side' on a regular basis, and not just sit in your own echo chamber. But almost noone ever does.......
 
So much to unpack in that, and I don't have a lot of time, so I'm just going to respond to make three completely unconnected responses.....

1) I think you're right that people conflated Brexit and Immigration......but of course as it turned out, they were completely wrong to do so. The four years with the highest net migration to the UK in history, are four out of the five years immediately following the implementation of Brexit (with the only exception being the Covid year, when noone was moving). If people had actually known the truth about Brexit i.e. it's going to mean more red tape for businesses, more challenges for Brits traveling to Europe and more immigration to the UK......I bet the result would have turned out different.

2) Even as someone who is naturally extremely socially liberal.....Black Lives Matter in the UK to me is a very strange one. Its origins are uniquely American, born out of literal centuries of slavery, apartheid and racial oppression, and to try and apply it wholesale in the UK (where I would argue there is perhaps more casual racism, but far, far less of a history of structural racism) is an odd one

3) Agree on the confirmation bias, which is why I think the healthiest thing for everyone to do is read news from the 'other side' on a regular basis, and not just sit in your own echo chamber. But almost noone ever does.......
I agree with all of that (except maybe that Brexit in itself caused more red tape, I think the implementation of Brexit didn't unlock the benefits), but point 3 is quite interesting as it probably says more about human psychology than it does politics. I think the human ego makes us all think we are somewhat 'above' the media 24-hour-news spiral, when in fact really almost none of us are. Through work/life I've been exposed to left-wing media/literature but I'm going into it with a negative mindset already.

Which brings it back to why debate shows are increasingly boring, if people think they have an open mind but in reality they don't, they're not really there to talk points over but to communicate with their echo chamber for RTs and likes on social media.

On point two, the UK importing American race politics from their college system was just very weird above anything else. 2020 was a bizarre time in British life and politics.
 
Starmer’s U-turns:

(He’s Done; he’s cooked)

 
Yesterday I read this thought-provoking article in the Guardian, one of a number recently criticising Starmer from a “left-wing” perspective rather than from the right, as is generally the case on here. I have sympathy with much that the author has to say.
 

UK unemployment rate hits five-year high​


Nice one. Anti growth budgets tend to do that. Oh, and most of the elements of the Employment Rights Act are yet to be implemented. So it will only become less attractive for small businesses to make new hires.

And of course
Always good idea helping growth when minimum wage rises with a stagnant economy
Freezing tax thresholds
Increasing NI premiums for employers
All help to improve hospitality too

"Young people are bearing the brunt, with unemployment for those aged between 16 and 24 rising to 16.1%, its highest in more than 10 years."

Maybe Labour should let them vote.

1771342913949.png
 
"Young people are bearing the brunt, with unemployment for those aged between 16 and 24 rising to 16.1%, its highest in more than 10 years."

Maybe Labour should let them vote.

View attachment 33620
If the right vote is split between Restore-Reform-Tory don't be surprised if the Greens manage to re-package the socialist dream to sell to people without a stake in society.

It could get worse than this...
 
FWIW, Restore will probably split the right vote by about as much as Your Party will on the left (ie they will remain a looney fringe outfit).

Reform will have 3 years from this May to show their mettle in local government and as a result see if they can convince enough people to hold their noses come 2029......🫣
 
FWIW, Restore will probably split the right vote by about as much as Your Party will on the left (ie they will remain a looney fringe outfit).

Reform will have 3 years from this May to show their mettle in local government and as a result see if they can convince enough people to hold their noses come 2029......🫣
I think Restore is a threat to Reform more than it may seem, although I hope not.

There is paranoia on the right I think that Reform would be continuation Tories, and Lowe is a very good rabble-rouser on X.

If Starmer does fall on his sword it's possible we could end up having a GE sooner than we think. I also think Kemi isn't the worst leader, she talks a fair amount of common sense and I think she will win back some votes.

I'm not really worried about Your Party, but a Green-Labour coalition is a very real threat. It doesn't matter that net zero is suicide, there's extremists in the party, Zack is an oddball, young people like his message of 'tax the rich' and 'save the planet'. When you don't own a home, or have a job, you can vote more idealistically. I think Greens could sweep up way more of the vote than even polls predict.
 
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