General Players out on loan

[unification]

More likely out on loan as our manager doesn't seem to like promoting youngsters from the youth squad.

Really? The last 24 hours has seen a lot levelled at KR but I think he can hold his head high on the development of youngsters.

Youth teamers who have either made their debut or have developed under his tutelage include Shandon Baptiste, Owen James, Malachi Napa, Harvey Bradbury, Aaron Heap, Nico Jones, Armani Little, Fabio Lopes, Slavi Spasov, Jack Stevens, Tyler Goodrham, Kryan Lofthouse, Fabio Sole, Leon Chambers-Parillon, Michael Elechi and Gaitlin O'Donkor. Those are just own developed players - we've acquired others from elsewhere to develop too. Compare and contrast with old skool types like Ian Atkins and Chris Wilder and KR looks streets ahead.

More will fail to make the grade than succeed but there is certainly a better plan in place nowadays to create a more reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup.

 

[Paul Cannell]

Really? The last 24 hours has seen a lot levelled at KR but I think he can hold his head high on the development of youngsters.

Youth teamers who have either made their debut or have developed under his tutelage include Shandon Baptiste, Owen James, Malachi Napa, Harvey Bradbury, Aaron Heap, Nico Jones, Armani Little, Fabio Lopes, Slavi Spasov, Jack Stevens, Tyler Goodrham, Kryan Lofthouse, Fabio Sole, Leon Chambers-Parillon, Michael Elechi and Gaitlin O'Donkor. Those are just own developed players - we've acquired others from elsewhere to develop too. Compare and contrast with old skool types like Ian Atkins and Chris Wilder and KR looks streets ahead.

More will fail to make the grade than succeed but there is certainly a better plan in place nowadays to create a more reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup.

Really.

Which of those are making careers as first-team or higher-league professional footballers?

Baptiste and Stevens. That is all. I don't think either of those was signed to the club by Karl Robinson.

Napa, Jones, Lopes, Spasov, Sole, Goodrham (from memory, I can't be arsed to look stuff that's this obvious) C-Parillon have played one or more senior games for OUFC at some time. Not a single one has graduated to a league team or is playing for our league team. Elechi, O'Donkor - no. Not in 3 years!

What has Robinson developed? Does he work with them each day as well as do all the press conferences, clean the North Stand toilets and 'train' the first team squad?

It's all talk. Jones was going to play for England, Lopes in the premiership. What happened - they got a game or 2 to show how brilliant Karl is at developing talent then they disappear from sight.


What's the proof that there's a "reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup"? I've watched some of these players and they might be good enough - but I bet you we'll never know because it stops short of the first team. They can't all have dodgy attitude.

Karl acts like he's great at developing talent, the facts tell you he's not. As usual with the man, it's just talk. Words, an inexhaustible stream of words that don't mean what it sounds like they mean. Come on. @unification you're supposed to be one of the reasonable guys.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Really.

Which of those are making careers as first-team or higher-league professional footballers?

Baptiste and Stevens. That is all. I don't think either of those was signed to the club by Karl Robinson.

Napa, Jones, Lopes, Spasov, Sole, Goodrham (from memory, I can't be arsed to look stuff that's this obvious) C-Parillon have played one or more senior games for OUFC at some time. Not a single one has graduated to a league team or is playing for our league team. Elechi, O'Donkor - no. Not in 3 years!

What has Robinson developed? Does he work with them each day as well as do all the press conferences, clean the North Stand toilets and 'train' the first team squad?

It's all talk. Jones was going to play for England, Lopes in the premiership. What happened - they got a game or 2 to show how brilliant Karl is at developing talent then they disappear from sight.


What's the proof that there's a "reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup"? I've watched some of these players and they might be good enough - but I bet you we'll never know because it stops short of the first team. They can't all have dodgy attitude.

Karl acts like he's great at developing talent, the facts tell you he's not. As usual with the man, it's just talk. Words, an inexhaustible stream of words that don't mean what it sounds like they mean. Come on. @unification you're supposed to be one of the reasonable guys.

Despite being in a slightly different Robbo camp than you Paul I am also a little disappointed that we haven't seen a few more youngsters involved in ' proper ' matches....they are still young however and I hope that next season Lofthouse Spasov , L C-B are very much in the first team squad with some of the promising others getting some minutes ( or decent loans ) to show that the academy is bearing fruit.

 

[unification]

Really.

Which of those are making careers as first-team or higher-league professional footballers?

Baptiste and Stevens. That is all. I don't think either of those was signed to the club by Karl Robinson.

Napa, Jones, Lopes, Spasov, Sole, Goodrham (from memory, I can't be arsed to look stuff that's this obvious) C-Parillon have played one or more senior games for OUFC at some time. Not a single one has graduated to a league team or is playing for our league team. Elechi, O'Donkor - no. Not in 3 years!

What has Robinson developed? Does he work with them each day as well as do all the press conferences, clean the North Stand toilets and 'train' the first team squad?

It's all talk. Jones was going to play for England, Lopes in the premiership. What happened - they got a game or 2 to show how brilliant Karl is at developing talent then they disappear from sight.


What's the proof that there's a "reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup"? I've watched some of these players and they might be good enough - but I bet you we'll never know because it stops short of the first team. They can't all have dodgy attitude.

Karl acts like he's great at developing talent, the facts tell you he's not. As usual with the man, it's just talk. Words, an inexhaustible stream of words that don't mean what it sounds like they mean. Come on. @unification you're supposed to be one of the reasonable guys.

But he's giving them chances. There are plenty of others who have gone before who didn't (and one Spaniard who went totally against the grain of doing it).

As a comparison, I pulled out the list of youth team graduates who made debuts under MApp and home grown players developed during his time here. It reads Josh Ashby, Max Crocombe, Aidan Hawtin, Sam Humphreys, Sam Long, Callum O'Dowda, James Roberts, Robbie Cundy, AJ George, Canice Carroll and Miles Welch-Hayes. I make that one who was sold for decent money (COD), one who has become a mainstay (Long) and all the others have since departed. The best of the rest play at League 2 or NL level at best.

A pretty comparable record I'd say to KR in a similar timeframe. You can split hairs by saying there are fewer players on MApp's list and KR has since had more opportunities in the revamped EFL Trophy to blood youth teamers but I'd say they are pretty even. It's the general going rate for youth teamers too - you'll get one every two or three seasons that you can cash in on and the same rate for one who can at least rack up 100+ appearances for you.

Only by giving them that platform can you assess who they'll be. I'm not saying KR is the Messiah. I just think that on this particular point he is doing things right in a similar if not slightly better way than MApp did.

 

[Paul Cannell]

Of Appleton's failures Robert's made 30 appearances, Ashby 7, Carroll 16.

How many of the players our current manager has charge of have made more than 5, including the EFL?

"Hold his head high"?

 

[Sarge]

But he's giving them chances. There are plenty of others who have gone before who didn't (and one Spaniard who went totally against the grain of doing it).

As a comparison, I pulled out the list of youth team graduates who made debuts under MApp and home grown players developed during his time here. It reads Josh Ashby, Max Crocombe, Aidan Hawtin, Sam Humphreys, Sam Long, Callum O'Dowda, James Roberts, Robbie Cundy, AJ George, Canice Carroll and Miles Welch-Hayes. I make that one who was sold for decent money (COD), one who has become a mainstay (Long) and all the others have since departed. The best of the rest play at League 2 or NL level at best.

A pretty comparable record I'd say to KR in a similar timeframe. You can split hairs by saying there are fewer players on MApp's list and KR has since had more opportunities in the revamped EFL Trophy to blood youth teamers but I'd say they are pretty even. It's the general going rate for youth teamers too - you'll get one every two or three seasons that you can cash in on and the same rate for one who can at least rack up 100+ appearances for you.

Only by giving them that platform can you assess who they'll be. I'm not saying KR is the Messiah. I just think that on this particular point he is doing things right in a similar if not slightly better way than MApp did.

U21s won 4-3 V Gas u21s - heres a link for the goals ...defending not too dis similar to the first team, goalscoring however , IMO much better that of late from the first team ....

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Appleton gave Baptiste his pro deal. Clotet gave Baptiste his first team debut and extended his contract. However the latter also claimed Xemi was a footballer rather than a family friend who was studying to be a doctor so I hate him.

 

[ttg17]

Really.

Which of those are making careers as first-team or higher-league professional footballers?

Baptiste and Stevens. That is all. I don't think either of those was signed to the club by Karl Robinson.

Napa, Jones, Lopes, Spasov, Sole, Goodrham (from memory, I can't be arsed to look stuff that's this obvious) C-Parillon have played one or more senior games for OUFC at some time. Not a single one has graduated to a league team or is playing for our league team. Elechi, O'Donkor - no. Not in 3 years!

What has Robinson developed? Does he work with them each day as well as do all the press conferences, clean the North Stand toilets and 'train' the first team squad?

It's all talk. Jones was going to play for England, Lopes in the premiership. What happened - they got a game or 2 to show how brilliant Karl is at developing talent then they disappear from sight.


What's the proof that there's a "reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup"? I've watched some of these players and they might be good enough - but I bet you we'll never know because it stops short of the first team. They can't all have dodgy attitude.

Karl acts like he's great at developing talent, the facts tell you he's not. As usual with the man, it's just talk. Words, an inexhaustible stream of words that don't mean what it sounds like they mean. Come on. @unification you're supposed to be one of the reasonable guys.

We have heard a lot in the last couple of years about all these exciting youth prospects coming through - I remember Lopes in particular was supposed to be being scouted by Premiership clubs a few years back wasn't he? So it is disappointing that it now looks like they're doing little more than 'fine' at National League South level. Either they were never really that good in the first place, or something has gone wrong in their development, either on the club's side or the individual's side. Probably a bit of all three.

But I would make two counterpoints:
1) I know everyone's a bit annoyed with KR at the moment, but one thing we can surely all acknowledge is that he loves a narrative. Any opportunity to link Oxford United as a club back to the community and the fans he seizes - and, I think, does a very good and sincere job of it generally (especially during this pandemic). It seems like you're suggesting he's got some sort of vendetta or aversion to using youth team players - but surely, of all managers, we can all acknowledge that KR is the type who would absolutely LOVE to bring through a homegrown talent? I really can't see him refusing to play youth teamers because 'they're not his players' (or something).

2) His record of developing youth isn't limited to just the players from the youth team. We don't need to go through the examples, we all know them, but there's been a number of young players in the last few years who have blossomed under his stewardship. You can argue that there were some failures, or that his successes were cherry-picked players anyway who would have succeeded anywhere, but it seems churlish to give him no credit for developing some players while placing the blame for those who have failed entirely at his feet.

Like I say, I appreciate the knives are out for Robbo today, and there is a lot to justifiably criticise at the moment. The team seem to be going through the motions, we're easy to play against, and there are broader structural issues which, after three years, still haven't gone away (leaving business til late in transfer windows, taking chances on unfit/injury prone players, and our perennial slow starts, in particular). But I do think that youth development is a stick that it's not really justified in beating him with. He's not Midas, he's not some wizard who transforms every 17 year old up-and-comer who crosses his path into Delle Alli, but I do think he gives players chances and has a good record on development overall.

 

[ttg17]

U21s won 4-3 V Gas u21s - heres a link for the goals ...defending not too dis similar to the first team, goalscoring however , IMO much better that of late from the first team ....

Jeez that first goal nearly took the net off

 

[Paul Cannell]

But I would make two counterpoints:
1) I know everyone's a bit annoyed with KR at the moment, but one thing we can surely all acknowledge is that he loves a narrative. Any opportunity to link Oxford United as a club back to the community and the fans he seizes - and, I think, does a very good and sincere job of it generally (especially during this pandemic). It seems like you're suggesting he's got some sort of vendetta or aversion to using youth team players - but surely, of all managers, we can all acknowledge that KR is the type who would absolutely LOVE to bring through a homegrown talent? I really can't see him refusing to play youth teamers because 'they're not his players' (or something).

I'm a bit confused here. He's good at linking the club to the community and would like to bring forward our youths.

But he hasn't done it, has he?

I certainly haven't said anything about youths not being 'his players', I just think he's done nothing in bringing youth through but likes to talk about it as if he has.

2) His record of developing youth isn't limited to just the players from the youth team. We don't need to go through the examples, we all know them, but there's been a number of young players in the last few years who have blossomed under his stewardship. You can argue that there were some failures, or that his successes were cherry-picked players anyway who would have succeeded anywhere, but it seems churlish to give him no credit for developing some players while placing the blame for those who have failed entirely at his feet.

You mean loaned-in players, or our contracted players? Dickie. I can't think of any significant others he's pulled through. Please help me.

 

[Jolteon]

I’d have SS, Nico and Lopes on the bench. Likewise, LCP and Lofthouse over the likes of Hall ( got taken off injured today ) and Grayson and at a push, Kelly.

I’d also like to see Goodrham and Elechi given a chance before they disappear of the radar.

Would be nice for the club to communicate what’s going on with Slavi and Lopes as nether appeared for the u21’s today

KR likes to take the plaudits for promoting youth but we haven’t really seen it when it comes to league games. The exception obviously is Stevens and let’s face it, he didn’t really have a choice given the form of Eastwood.

Think I'd give it a couple more games; let Lincoln and Sunderland really end our playoff hopes. After that fully agree. I want to give LCP a start or two, and in Slavi, Fabio, Goodrham and also GoD and Adam Smith we have a number of really exciting up and coming attackers we could give a shot to. They can't do any worse than our experienced players have recently! If we are firmly rooted to mid table and at a minimum LCP doesn't get a chance to get proper minutes, KR will have lost the plot completely.

 

[OxfordBoy]

It’s been difficult to give the youngsters a chance as we’ve been in the playoff picture 2 seasons in a row

But Robbo has talked many of them up and then not brought any of them through beyond a cup cameo here and there

Even when we’ve had injuries he’s put square pegs in round holes rather than give them a go

Hopefully a few of them get a real chance in the last few games

 

[Grumpy Git]

Really? The last 24 hours has seen a lot levelled at KR but I think he can hold his head high on the development of youngsters.

Youth teamers who have either made their debut or have developed under his tutelage include Shandon Baptiste, Owen James, Malachi Napa, Harvey Bradbury, Aaron Heap, Nico Jones, Armani Little, Fabio Lopes, Slavi Spasov, Jack Stevens, Tyler Goodrham, Kryan Lofthouse, Fabio Sole, Leon Chambers-Parillon, Michael Elechi and Gaitlin O'Donkor. Those are just own developed players - we've acquired others from elsewhere to develop too. Compare and contrast with old skool types like Ian Atkins and Chris Wilder and KR looks streets ahead.

More will fail to make the grade than succeed but there is certainly a better plan in place nowadays to create a more reliable conveyor belt of talent from our youth setup.

He does develop youth, but it’s youth players from other teams who are loaned to us.

 

[Foley]

I guess that it depends on how you define young players.
I would suggest that KR (and the coaching team) have improved Stevens, Dickie, Moore, Atkinson, Whyte, Baptiste to name a few.
I have no problem him 'bigging up' the young players.
On the players from the youth team Lopes and Spasov have been disappointing although both I believe have been hampered through injury.
It appears that the quality of young players coming through are increasing in number. Goodrham has also been injured but is still young, LCP is developing well and there are 2 strikers in the youth team with a lot of potential. Lofthouse has done well at Woking.
Stevens made a big breakthrough this season and hopefully a couple more come through next.

 

[uptheus]

I know it’s a big if, but if we beat Lincoln and Sunderland what’s our thoughts on Robinson then? Fine margins.

 

[IsleofWightYellow]

I know it’s a big if, but if we beat Lincoln and Sunderland what’s our thoughts on Robinson then? Fine margins.

Unfortunately everyone is too reactive nowadays. If we win every game from now until the end of the season the same people will be saying he’s the best thing since sliced bread.

I personally think we need to take stock of where we are at the end of the season and go from there:

• Win Playoffs: Of course he should stay, and potentially still stay even if we come straight back down, if we put up a good fight and have improved the team with permanent signings
• Beaten playoff finalists: I think he should stay, two playoff finals is a row is decent
• Beaten playoff semi finalists: Again I personally think he should stay as just getting back in the playoffs is a decent result, but it would be the minimum needed again next season for me to want to keep him
• Finish just outside the playoffs: I’d be happy enough for him to leave, but I wouldn’t be calling for his head
• Lose most or all of the final 10 games and finish low/mid table: He’s got to go

 

[unification]

Unfortunately everyone is too reactive nowadays. If we win every game from now until the end of the season the same people will be saying he’s the best thing since sliced bread.

I personally think we need to take stock of where we are at the end of the season and go from there:

• Win Playoffs: Of course he should stay, and potentially still stay even if we come straight back down, if we put up a good fight and have improved the team with permanent signings
• Beaten playoff finalists: I think he should stay, two playoff finals is a row is decent
• Beaten playoff semi finalists: Again I personally think he should stay as just getting back in the playoffs is a decent result, but it would be the minimum needed again next season for me to want to keep him
• Finish just outside the playoffs: I’d be happy enough for him to leave, but I wouldn’t be calling for his head
• Lose most or all of the final 10 games and finish low/mid table: He’s got to go

Agree with this. The Northampton game, when rated against all the others, was our second worst defeat of the season. An absolute s**t show from all concerned. A terrible XI, an equally bad a performance and an outcome that surprised no one. We were all angry about it and justifiably so.

But it's not enough in my view to throw around 'Robbo out' slogans. He leaves me scratching my head one minute and applauding him the next. He's a frustrating manager who doesn't seem to learn and yet still will commands a winning record. Whilst we'll win more than we lose with him, quite simply he needs to develop that X-factor to get us up out of this league. When it works, it's great having KR. When it doesn't, it leaves you banging your head on the table.

FWIW, I didn't think we were going to be good enough to be promoted from the outset. Dickie left a huge gap at the back and we missed out on securing a dynamic fullback in the Cadden role (poor Sean Clare was the wrong choice there). Disappointing signings (Winnall, another year for Hall), players who have declined more than we could have thought (Eastwood, Henry), unusual injuries (Brannagan) and an exhausting late winter period due to COVID/weather related postponements at the start have all been low points this season. I hope for our sake that we keep on it until the bitter end but if it looks as though sixth place is beyond us, that Elechi and LCP get a few more minutes in league games to show us what they can do.

 

[Marked Ox]

I guess that it depends on how you define young players.
I would suggest that KR (and the coaching team) have improved Stevens, Dickie, Moore, Atkinson, Whyte, Baptiste to name a few.
I have no problem him 'bigging up' the young players.
On the players from the youth team Lopes and Spasov have been disappointing although both I believe have been hampered through injury.
It appears that the quality of young players coming through are increasing in number. Goodrham has also been injured but is still young, LCP is developing well and there are 2 strikers in the youth team with a lot of potential. Lofthouse has done well at Woking.
Stevens made a big breakthrough this season and hopefully a couple more come through next.

Goodrham I think is still a Scholar so not even a professional and played for the U18s when he came back from injury.

 

[Jolteon]

While I kind of understand where people are coming from saying KR hasn't developed our youth and how they haven't played - I think it's worth remembering just how young our youth team is. We're not filled with players on the cusp of 21 who should be challenging by now, most of our top prospects are still teens and some even still scholars. Callum O'Dowda had his breakout season in a really poor mid table league 2 side at 18/19, but no chance he'd break into our current squad and certainly not last seasons squad at that age. Likewise Stevens is 23, he's not like the rest of the youth team (although I admit he probably should've been given a go a bit sooner). Baptiste was 20 before he really got into the first team too, and even then only made 9 league appearances (down to injury mostly). Compare that to our current youth side and it becomes a bit clearer why only one or two look close to being ready:

Nico Jones - turned 19 a month ago
Michael Elechi - 19
Fabio Sole - 18
LCP - 19
Fabio Lopes - turned 19 3 months ago
Kyran Lofthouse - 20 (and doing well on loan)
Jack Stevens (the outfield one) - turned 20 3 months ago
Slavi Spasov - turned 19 3 months ago
Tyler Goodrham - 17
Adam Smith - 17

And that's just the players we hear about the most. The ones we need to be looking to see in the next season or 2 are Elechi, LCP and Lofthouse, all three of which have made appearances in the pizza trophy and LCP in the league and all done ok already, and Jack Stevens who I feel may be the one who drops out given his lack of experience (although I hope not!). Knock KR for his team selection on Tuesday, I'd be worried if you didn't, but to knock him for not regularly turning to a bunch of kids in a really tough league 1 is madness. The work he's done with Dickie, Moore, Atkinson, Long, Stevens, Browne and CamBran to name a few has been fantastic. Did anyone really see Sam Long contending for player of the season in a playoff chasing league one side 3 years ago? He hasn't gone to the youth team simply because they aren't ready - and to use them now would be utter madness because the moment they slip up the keyboard warriors will be out slagging off KR for daring to use youth teamers who aren't ready and ruining our playoff chances.

 

[holdsteady]

Once we are out of play off contention (so pretty soon with how we are playing at the moment) then I can see no reading not to give a few youngsters a runout.

LCP is already near the team so let him have minutes, Elechi needs to be out under the microscope of proper games to see if he is ready to be at least understudy left back next season, we already know what Ruffles can do so give him a rest. The others can at least come off the bench ahead of the likes of Winnall and Grayson.