National News Official 2019 General Election Thread

[RyanioBirdio]

Agree with that.... But plenty of adults seem suckers for soundbite too.

You mean the ones who blindly believe what they’re told, especially on things like Facebook, which is technology that young people know far more about?

I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on the 16 vote either way, but I’m not having anyone say they’re too easily led to be trusted when the most gullible and easily manipulated people I’ve ever met in 2019 are those over the age of about 50. Let’s have a better, less hypocritical reason for it than that.

 

[Manorlounger]

You mean the ones who blindly believe what they’re told, especially on things like Facebook, which is technology that young people know far more about?

I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on the 16 vote either way, but I’m not having anyone say they’re too easily led to be trusted when the most gullible and easily manipulated people I’ve ever met in 2019 are those over the age of about 50. Let’s have a better, less hypocritical reason for it than that.

Oi! Less of the ageism, if you don't mind.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Oi! Less of the ageism, if you don't mind.

Apologies Mr Lounger, it's simply what I find and have found to be the case. You can never generalise everybody and nor would I ever wish to, but I do think there is a very, very large proportion of the 'older generation' who are swayed and manipulated much easier than most, especially with targeted Facebook advertising (including completely fabricated news sites posing as legitimate news sources) and this old-fashioned notion that things must be true or the newspapers wouldn't be allowed to print them, which is far, far more common than you might think. Every last member of my family who are 60 and above base their beliefs on what they read in papers or what comes up on their Facebook. Every single one of them - I've had this out with them more times than I care to recall - and all they ever throw at me as their proof is that they read it here and there etc. That's it, constantly. "I read this thing in this place and if it wasn't true they couldn't say it" - that is their entire argument. Even when I've then shown them something which absolutely discredits their source, they don't believe it.

There was a thing a few months ago where a photo was doing the rounds that was claiming to be of the rubbish left behind in London by climate change protestors, but it was actually a photo taken of a park from another country in Europe many months earlier, which was showing the aftermath of a festival or something along those lines, and I showed my own mother the original dated article containing the same image she threw at me and went, "They're lying to you - the thing on Facebook isn't real. This is the original photo and this is what it is of - it isn't in London nor is it related to these protestors" and she outright shook her head and went, "I don't believe you". There's nothing I can do for that, and it's the only mindset I'm ever encountering from people who are retired or nearing that age. Very few people over a certain age are seemingly open to proof anymore, because it's all just fake news and Project Fear, as they put it. The overwhelming vibe coming down the way is absolutely one of, "I am older than you and I am smarter, nobody could possibly deceive me the way you say they do because I've been around the block, and if you think I'm being tricked then you must also think I'm stupid, and if that's the case then I'm going to show you how stupid I really am by beating you". Whatever this whole 'beating you' and 'winning' thing even means anymore.

I genuinely don't wish to come across as though I'm simply discarding anyone above a certain age, but this is all too common, and if it's 100% of my relatives which takes in parents, grandparents, aunties and uncles - and I've had this out with every last one of them, bar none - there's every chance that while it won't be 100% across the board, it's going to be a decent enough percentage for someone to be able to go, "Yeah, this is a problem". I'm only speaking for myself and I can only tell you what I experience and encounter, regularly. I am certainly not doing it to be provocative, nor do I wish to throw you in a ditch just because you may be of a certain generation!

 

[Manorlounger]

Apologies Mr Lounger, it's simply what I find and have found to be the case. You can never generalise everybody and nor would I ever wish to, but I do think there is a very, very large proportion of the 'older generation' who are swayed and manipulated much easier than most, especially with targeted Facebook advertising (including completely fabricated news sites posing as legitimate news sources) and this old-fashioned notion that things must be true or the newspapers wouldn't be allowed to print them, which is far, far more common than you might think. Every last member of my family who are 60 and above base their beliefs on what they read in papers or what comes up on their Facebook. Every single one of them - I've had this out with them more times than I care to recall - and all they ever throw at me as their proof is that they read it here and there etc. That's it, constantly. "I read this thing in this place and if it wasn't true they couldn't say it" - that is their entire argument. Even when I've then shown them something which absolutely discredits their source, they don't believe it.

There was a thing a few months ago where a photo was doing the rounds that was claiming to be of the rubbish left behind in London by climate change protestors, but it was actually a photo taken of a park from another country in Europe many months earlier, which was showing the aftermath of a festival or something along those lines, and I showed my own mother the original dated article containing the same image she threw at me and went, "They're lying to you - the thing on Facebook isn't real. This is the original photo and this is what it is of - it isn't in London nor is it related to these protestors" and she outright shook her head and went, "I don't believe you". There's nothing I can do for that, and it's the only mindset I'm ever encountering from people who are retired or nearing that age. Very few people over a certain age are seemingly open to proof anymore, because it's all just fake news and Project Fear, as they put it. The overwhelming vibe coming down the way is absolutely one of, "I am older than you and I am smarter, nobody could possibly deceive me the way you say they do because I've been around the block, and if you think I'm being tricked then you must also think I'm stupid, and if that's the case then I'm going to show you how stupid I really am by beating you". Whatever this whole 'beating you' and 'winning' thing even means anymore.

I genuinely don't wish to come across as though I'm simply discarding anyone above a certain age, but this is all too common, and if it's 100% of my relatives which takes in parents, grandparents, aunties and uncles - and I've had this out with every last one of them, bar none - there's every chance that while it won't be 100% across the board, it's going to be a decent enough percentage for someone to be able to go, "Yeah, this is a problem". I'm only speaking for myself and I can only tell you what I experience and encounter, regularly. I am certainly not doing it to be provocative, nor do I wish to throw you in a ditch just because you may be of a certain generation!

No Facebook or such like in my household. Neither I nor Mrs Lounger have any time for them. I don't bother with newspapers for the very reason you gave, too much misleading or potentially miss-reported stuff about. Mrs Lounger gets the Telegraph and we both get a laugh out of some of the letters and enjoy the crossword. As to it's politics, who cares, not us.
There is a belief held that experience is a good tutor and is why so many of the "older generation" (whoever they are) have a critical stance towards the "younger generation" (again, whoever they are) That may be right, may be wrong but, having lived longer than others, the potential to have experienced more grows exponentially.
Each generation sees the next generation as abusers of what they held as "right and wrong" I often find myself bemoaning the lack of good manners amongst the younger members of society. I reflect on what my elders taught me as being the right thing to do, or how to behave. I then stop and think - Jeez, have I got old? No. Times have changed, society has changed. Good, bad, it's all perspective.
It could be said that age is not a dictator of beliefs its more that beliefs have become comfortably situated and change is very difficult. And, don't assume that we are wrong because you believe you are right.
Sometimes, the older do know better!

 

[Sir Winston]

16 year olds voting? Feck off, they have zero life experience and would be suckers for "influence".

I am not in favour of 16 year olds voting. However, if they are old enough to pay income tax and fight for Queen and Country, then I do have somewhat of a moral dilemma. Just saying.

 

[carefreeoufc]

I think I heard on the radio yesterday that 16 year old members were allowed to vote on Boris Johnson in the latest leadership campaign. If that is the case then I think it’s reasonable to argue that 16 year olds should have the opportunity to vote on the potential next Government.

 

[holdsteady]

Do we need to add more kids who can’t be bothered to get out of bed to vote to the large number who already don’t?

How many 16 year olds are actually in full time tax paying work? It’s a minuscule number, most have no life experience and absolutely no responsibilities, if they were likely to vote Tory then not one person advocating giving near children the vote would do so.

 

[carefreeoufc]

I don’t necessarily agree with it but I don’t agree with parties/politicians who’ve permitted 16 year olds in their own leadership elections to then say it’s not permitted in a general election.

As has been said above there is a bit of hypocrisy in that a 16 year old can go to work and begin paying taxes but for two years potentially have no opportunity to decide how they might be being spent. There’s also the issue that our armed forces (Army for example) believe a 15yr 7 month old person has enough understanding of life to begin their application to potentially lose their life serving queen and country before they’re even eligible to vote in a conflict our politicians would have decided that we got involved in.

There needs to be a bit of consistency somewhere

 

[SteMerritt]

How many 16 year olds are actually in full time tax paying work?

Considering they can't leave school at 16 to go into full-time work, I'd suggest not many.

 

[holdsteady]

Considering they can't leave school at 16 to go into full-time work, I'd suggest not many.

Forgot they had changed it, by 16 I had spent 8 years working down the mine, hell of a commute from Oxford as well.

 

[Foley]

Apologies Mr Lounger, it's simply what I find and have found to be the case. You can never generalise everybody and nor would I ever wish to, but I do think there is a very, very large proportion of the 'older generation' who are swayed and manipulated much easier than most, especially with targeted Facebook advertising (including completely fabricated news sites posing as legitimate news sources) and this old-fashioned notion that things must be true or the newspapers wouldn't be allowed to print them, which is far, far more common than you might think. Every last member of my family who are 60 and above base their beliefs on what they read in papers or what comes up on their Facebook. Every single one of them - I've had this out with them more times than I care to recall - and all they ever throw at me as their proof is that they read it here and there etc. That's it, constantly. "I read this thing in this place and if it wasn't true they couldn't say it" - that is their entire argument. Even when I've then shown them something which absolutely discredits their source, they don't believe it.

There was a thing a few months ago where a photo was doing the rounds that was claiming to be of the rubbish left behind in London by climate change protestors, but it was actually a photo taken of a park from another country in Europe many months earlier, which was showing the aftermath of a festival or something along those lines, and I showed my own mother the original dated article containing the same image she threw at me and went, "They're lying to you - the thing on Facebook isn't real. This is the original photo and this is what it is of - it isn't in London nor is it related to these protestors" and she outright shook her head and went, "I don't believe you". There's nothing I can do for that, and it's the only mindset I'm ever encountering from people who are retired or nearing that age. Very few people over a certain age are seemingly open to proof anymore, because it's all just fake news and Project Fear, as they put it. The overwhelming vibe coming down the way is absolutely one of, "I am older than you and I am smarter, nobody could possibly deceive me the way you say they do because I've been around the block, and if you think I'm being tricked then you must also think I'm stupid, and if that's the case then I'm going to show you how stupid I really am by beating you". Whatever this whole 'beating you' and 'winning' thing even means anymore.

I genuinely don't wish to come across as though I'm simply discarding anyone above a certain age, but this is all too common, and if it's 100% of my relatives which takes in parents, grandparents, aunties and uncles - and I've had this out with every last one of them, bar none - there's every chance that while it won't be 100% across the board, it's going to be a decent enough percentage for someone to be able to go, "Yeah, this is a problem". I'm only speaking for myself and I can only tell you what I experience and encounter, regularly. I am certainly not doing it to be provocative, nor do I wish to throw you in a ditch just because you may be of a certain generation!

Mmm you do come across as pretty ageist.
It would be interesting to see a neutral survey on this.
My gut feel (which could well be wrong) , is that over 50s are used to getting information from a load if different places- newspapers, magazines, BBC, radio, and more recently the internet.
I read somewhere that young people who watch less tv and dont as a rule read newspapers, tend to read on the internet articles that reaffirm what they already think. So they tend to read media that is in line with what they believe already.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Mmm you do come across as pretty ageist.
It would be interesting to see a neutral survey on this.
My gut feel (which could well be wrong) , is that over 50s are used to getting information from a load if different places- newspapers, magazines, BBC, radio, and more recently the internet.
I read somewhere that young people who watch less tv and dont as a rule read newspapers, tend to read on the internet articles that reaffirm what they already think. So they tend to read media that is in line with what they believe already.

Are the sources of information the young get, like social media, any less biased than the newspapers, etc from the older generation? Social media, in some respects, is worse for reporting unchecked facts and opinions, and with little accountability on correcting them. It is what it is and I'm not saying never believe social media, never believe papers, but my point is generations live within their own bubble where their views are the strongest.

I find it sad that there is a bit of persistent snobbery in certain areas about older generations and what they believe, and I suppose continuing the thing that they ruin peoples lives with the votes they make.

 

[SteMerritt]

I find it sad that there is a bit of persistent snobbery in certain areas about older generations and what they believe

I'd suggest at least as much snobbery about the younger generation, both with regards to voting ages and the rubbish spouted out about them being interested in climate change.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I'd suggest at least as much snobbery about the younger generation, both with regards to voting ages and the rubbish spouted out about them being interested in climate change.

Absolutely. Voting ages needs more discussion than just popping them into the franchise via an amendment. Constituency boundaries need reviewing, appropriateness against international standards too, and I'd dare say student voting needs more thought about they are registered.

Equally, we need to ensure all 16 and 17 year olds have appropriate education and access to political materials, particularly in mind of the other pressure they have at that time. As I saw, a wave of the hand isn't appropriate.

 

[Mojofilter]

And to quote some others

"There isn't enough time to debate such a large and complicated amendment" and this feels rushed in order to give them an advantage. What's good for the goose is good for the gander right?

How would we even ensure 16/17 year olds know what they are voting for? [emoji2369]

How do we ensure 50 year old know what they're voting for?

 

[Mojofilter]

You mean the ones who blindly believe what they’re told, especially on things like Facebook, which is technology that young people know far more about?

I don’t have a particularly strong opinion on the 16 vote either way, but I’m not having anyone say they’re too easily led to be trusted when the most gullible and easily manipulated people I’ve ever met in 2019 are those over the age of about 50. Let’s have a better, less hypocritical reason for it than that.

People younger than 20 don't even use Facebook. It's for grannies nowadays

 

[amershamdave]

I don't give two f*cks who knows this; I am a Labour voter.
I have never trusted the Tories to look after the working class. I don't trust them today and I won't trust them tomorrow. Labour cannot be trusted to give an honest answer as to what they want over Brexit. As far as looking after the working class, the NHS, education and disabled..........the Labour Party definitely get my vote. But....................while they have Jeremy Corbyn at the helm, they will NEVER get into power. Labour needs to get a thorough bashing at this election, so that they will be forced to start again, like what happened with Michael Foot's Labour party. It hurts like hell to write this, but this is how I feel. Can I trust Johnson and Farage together in Charge? Are you f*cking kidding!

 

[Discoland]

I don't give two f*cks who knows this; I am a Labour voter.
I have never trusted the Tories to look after the working class. I don't trust them today and I won't trust them tomorrow. Labour cannot be trusted to give an honest answer as to what they want over Brexit. As far as looking after the working class, the NHS, education and disabled..........the Labour Party definitely get my vote. But....................while they have Jeremy Corbyn at the helm, they will NEVER get into power. Labour needs to get a thorough bashing at this election, so that they will be forced to start again, like what happened with Michael Foot's Labour party. It hurts like hell to write this, but this is how I feel. Can I trust Johnson and Farage together in Charge? Are you f*cking kidding!

A competent Labour party would have absolutely ripped the Tories to shreds over the last 3 years. Instead they're stuck with Corbyn, Abbott and the likes. Very quickly need to work out their priorities, rid themselves of the Momentum extremists and the anti-semitic dinosaurs and really return themselves to being the party of the working class. "New Old Labour"?

Living in Oxford East if it wasnt Annaliese Dodds I'd probably be voting LibDem or Green.

 

[Briggsy]

You mean the ones who blindly believe what they’re told, especially on things like Facebook, which is technology that young people know far more about?

I've never quite understood this argument. How does a 16 year old know more about Facebook than somebody, say, in the 60s who's been using it for 10 years?

We seem to assume that young people know more about the internet, just because they've grown up with it. It's been around for an entire generation now. A reasonably informed 70 year old today will have been using the internet for more than 20 years. Depends on interest, level of technological ability, etc, I guess.

On the issue generally, I'm against it. You have to draw the line somewhere and I think 18 is perfectly reasonable. It smacks to me of certain parties trying to get easy votes because they know the younger someone is, the more they can be swayed by appeals to emotion. The SNP are certainly aware of this.

 

[Peterdev]

Very good thread this.
i don’t trust the Tories as they had a major part in increasing the retirement age. Usually the male partner is older and may well struggle to even retire at 66 and support his wife. The cut off was done in such a way that you were unfortunate if you were just a bit younger than your school friends enjoying Retirement benefits before you...at least I can enjoy OUFC ticket prices cheaper from March.
Unfortunately Labour have made their intentions pretty clear. Nationalise the utilities at great cost etc etc all at great cost and not fully budgeted. Many potential voters, including myself see McDonnell waiting in the wings and I’m sure that, pardon the pun, terrorises voters.
Meanwhile Jo Swinson has all the attributes of a new primary school teacher whose sole intention is to repeal A50 and attract the anti brexit vote. Describing herself as the next prime minister, the mind boggles.
For the first time I’m seriously considering spoiling my ballot paper.
Living in area where the Tories have a 40000 majority, anyone let me know what the point of voting is?