International News Immigration

Tragic news that two children (5 & 8) were among those who died crossing the channel today.

Having a child puts a new perspective on things as I get older and I can’t imagine what life must be like to pay 10s of thousands of pounds to risk your own life and your children to cross to a “better life”.

I do (to some extent) subscribe to the “they should be housed in the first safe place they arrive” argument but they aren’t and our ability to force that issue is about to diminish further still.

There really does need to be much better support and control on these trafficking routes from the very source. Providing safe, secure and decent areas for people to stay and either attempt to apply for residency where they are or where they hope to be.
 
Pete Burrett said:
Anyone's entitled to an opinion. It helps if it's an informed opinion though.
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I would agree on that Pete, but also add or question where that "informed" component comes from. Too many people think they are informed because they read say "The Daily Mail" for example or listen to Donald Trump.

They can become informed by disinformation.

For me, the most informed is when someone has been through something, done something or been somewhere.
 
For those who are suggesting we are overcrowded, it may have escaped attention that nearly 400 died yesterday from CV.
We may not be the first country the migrants end up in but we should be trying to deal with this in a humanitarian way.
And be negotiating with other countries on how to effectively manage a very difficult situation.
We should also be hunting down the criminals responsible for creating such an unsatisfactory situation.
 
carefreeoufc said:
I do (to some extent) subscribe to the “they should be housed in the first safe place they arrive” argument but they aren’t and our ability to force that issue is about to diminish further still.
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That does sound logical, until you are the government of whatever the first 'safe' place is deemed to be. Presumably Greece, for many migrants. They would be absolutely overwhelmed, and of course the migrants might not want to be in Greece (perhaps they are fluent in French or English, but not Greek?) and will try to move on anyway, whether they *should* or not. So then where do you deport them to when they land on a beach in southern England? Greece? France (who presumably then deport them to the next country down the chain)? Back to the hell hole they came from?

It is a pretty intractable problem. I would however be interested to see figures on what percentage of migrants do actually end up in this country. I am willing to bet that it is a pretty small proportion...
 
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ZeroTheHero said:
That does sound logical, until you are the government of whatever the first 'safe' place is deemed to be. Presumably Greece, for many migrants. They would be absolutely overwhelmed, and of course the migrants might not want to be in Greece (perhaps they are fluent in French or English, but not Greek?) and will try to move on anyway, whether they *should* or not. So then where do you deport them to when they land on a beach in southern England? Greece? France (who presumably then deport them to the next country down the chain)? Back to the hell hole they came from?

It is a pretty intractable problem. I would however be interested to see figures on what percentage of migrants do actually end up in this country. I am willing to bet that it is a pretty small proportion...
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We presume the migrants are coming from "hell holes". Some recent popular stories of migrant journeys include Vietnam (not a hell hole), Nigeria (not a hell hole) Iran (not a hell hole).

This is similar to the BandAid representation of Africa as a scorching desert. This is not always the escape from oppression that it is made out to be.
 
bashamwonderland said:
We presume the migrants are coming from "hell holes". Some recent popular stories of migrant journeys include Vietnam (not a hell hole), Nigeria (not a hell hole) Iran (not a hell hole).

This is similar to the BandAid representation of Africa as a scorching desert. This is not always the escape from oppression that it is made out to be.
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genuine refugees from wartorn corners of the globe should be welcomed by more stable countries

problem is many migrants are not genuine refugees at all, some, even many are economic migrants
( hidden amongst them are religious extremists 'sent' to carry out acts of terrorism in countries with different religious/ polital views than those of the manipulative puppeteers who brainwash the impressionable to perpetuate terrorist acts)
how to tell who is genuine and who isn't is far, far beyond me

however, simplistically viewing the situation, it does seem to be rather odd to me, that after migrating to safer/ westernised countries , why migrants then opt to embark on yet another dangerous crossing (the channel) when they are already in a safe country (France)?
 
Sarge said:
genuine refugees from wartorn corners of the globe should be welcomed by more stable countries

problem is many migrants are not genuine refugees at all, some, even many are economic migrants
( hidden amongst them are religious extremists 'sent' to carry out acts of terrorism in countries with different religious/ polital views than those of the manipulative puppeteers who brainwash the impressionable to perpetuate terrorist acts)
how to tell who is genuine and who isn't is far, far beyond me

however, simplistically viewing the situation, it does seem to be rather odd to me, that after migrating to safer/ westernised countries , why migrants then opt to embark on yet another dangerous crossing (the channel) when they are already in a safe country (France)?
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Yep, and that's perhaps why a world of countries with strong borders is so important. We will soon be seeing environmental migrants as well as economic migrants and Europe simply is not able to absorb the potential numbers without losing its identity and/or suffering from massive congestion of services, housing, healthcare etc. etc.

Fortunately most people are agreed that a limited number of genuinely vulnerable people (ideally children) should be taken into the system.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
That does sound logical, until you are the government of whatever the first 'safe' place is deemed to be. Presumably Greece, for many migrants. They would be absolutely overwhelmed, and of course the migrants might not want to be in Greece (perhaps they are fluent in French or English, but not Greek?) and will try to move on anyway, whether they *should* or not. So then where do you deport them to when they land on a beach in southern England? Greece? France (who presumably then deport them to the next country down the chain)? Back to the hell hole they came from?

It is a pretty intractable problem. I would however be interested to see figures on what percentage of migrants do actually end up in this country. I am willing to bet that it is a pretty small proportion...
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I'd be interested to see what percentage speak english to a professional competency.

If it were only a small proportion, they would stop doing it. Wouldn't be worth the risk.

If they were a fair allocation that was negotiated and agreed at EU level then that would be different.

There's a whole world of "safe" (or safer at least) options for them than home.

If you truly are escaping a territory because your life is in danger, I would just be glad to be somewhere safe. I wouldn't be bothered about having to learn a new language.
 
bashamwonderland said:
We presume the migrants are coming from "hell holes". Some recent popular stories of migrant journeys include Vietnam (not a hell hole), Nigeria (not a hell hole) Iran (not a hell hole).

This is similar to the BandAid representation of Africa as a scorching desert. This is not always the escape from oppression that it is made out to be.
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I believe a number of those coming from places like Iran are middle class professionals and quite often migrating due to the political situation. I don't see what the issue would be with accepting people like this into the country. Is it not what Priti Patel and the govt. are suggesting we should be doing, by admitting those who can positively impact our economy? In Vietnam I believe there are some issues to do with religious persecution which may be a reason why people decide to leave in search of a more tolerant society. Although i'll be damned why they think we are here!

Agree with your last sentence in some instances but could quite easily reframe it to say "This is not always travel to claim benefits from us the it is made out to be"
 
carefreeoufc said:
I believe a number of those coming from places like Iran are middle class professionals and quite often migrating due to the political situation. I don't see what the issue would be with accepting people like this into the country. Is it not what Priti Patel and the govt. are suggesting we should be doing, by admitting those who can positively impact our economy? In Vietnam I believe there are some issues to do with religious persecution which may be a reason why people decide to leave in search of a more tolerant society. Although i'll be damned why they think we are here!

Agree with your last sentence in some instances but could quite easily reframe it to say "This is not always travel to claim benefits from us the it is made out to be"
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Yeah you're right and I don't think anyone is advocating a total ban on immigration. Where there is a need for skilled migrants these middle class types should be welcomed.

Really it's those taking illegitimate routes and liberal or relaxed movement of unskilled labour which people (including myself) have a problem with.
 
I don’t want to stop immigration completely. If in controlled numbers, and only for skilled workers, and people that are qualified Nurses etc then fine they meet the criteria. We don’t need people coming here flooding the lower laboured work.

I’ve seen agencies actually advertising for workers in Bulgaria, and Romania, Hungary, and most of them don’t speak a bloody word of English. They come here and work save the money or send it home, so the money doesn’t stay within, and they build there palaces, so they can go back after a couple of years living like kings and queens.

These are not the people we need here. It’s not good for our economy despite paying taxes while here. The vast majority of them are notoriously light fingered, and commit crime to get by. Cloning credit cards, Petty thieving for example. I’m not tarnishing them all with the same brush, but the whole imagination process needs to be micro managed.
 
Romanians and Bulgarians are unlikely to be on a boat in a channel as they can quite legitimately come to the U.K. to work (as it stands).

They along with Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians quite often do jobs a lot of “our own” aren’t interested in doing.

Before “they undercut our own workers” is used as has been discussed on other threads there’s a massive race to the bottom in a whole host of industries. From my experience it’s not them that are doing the undercutting but it’s the people that employ them (in construction) and the payroll/umbrella companies who dream off the top.... people who are born and raised in this country.

I’m sure there’s bad apples among them and I have my own experiences of those but no more so than any other nationality that I’ve worked or lived amongst.
 
Leysboy said:
Farmers?

Or perhaps by us, when we take our kids to places that advertise Pick your own....
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Quick one on agriculture (particularly arable) if we were to rely on farmers (like my 60 year old dad) to grow, harvest, prepare, package and distribute then we really would f&@ked. Rightly or wrongly we rely on these people coming and working here in the U.K. and spending money in local businesses, regardless of how much they may send home.

It’s unlikely we’ll do our international reputation much good if we start using children too (I’m sure that was tongue in cheek anyway).

*just like to point out... before my family are accused of exacerbating the problem that it’s a family run dairy farm and we’ve never employed a “foreigner” in well over 100 years that I’m aware of*
 
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