National News London Bridge

Essexyellows said:
Point proven again.
For the protection of society everyone on that watch list should be subject to the most draconian restrictions possible until such a time as is necessary, and if that is the rest of their lives so be it.
Click to expand...
What draconian restrictions would you like to see?
 
De-radicalisation would be practical with some individuals, unlikely with others. The starting point would be a thorough assessment by a skilled individual and then appropriate referral to individual or group programme as a consequence. The probation service has been royally stitched up by the Tories through Chris Grayling. When you hear about these obscene attacks, the trick is to remember how much of the tax-payer’s money has been saved then think whether the price has been worth paying. Locking people up for life will be horrendously expensive but looks to be the immediate reaction of the Government, surprise, surprise.
 
Scotchegg said:
What draconian restrictions would you like to see?
Click to expand...

All on the watch list to be on 24 hour tag with restrictions to check in to police stations, banned from certain places etc.

Anyone convicted serving their full term with no early release and released on licence, like lifers are.

If they had a psychopathic mental illness they would be detained indefinitely for both public & their protection, religious fantacism is not much different.
 
Essexyellows said:
All on the watch list to be on 24 hour tag with restrictions to check in to police stations, banned from certain places etc.

Anyone convicted serving their full term with no early release and released on licence, like lifers are.

If they had a psychopathic mental illness they would be detained indefinitely for both public & their protection, religious fantacism is not much different.
Click to expand...

With the exception of the early release (which may only delay things), would any of those measures have prevented yesterday's incident or the one on London bridge?
 
Essexyellows said:
If they had a psychopathic mental illness they would be detained indefinitely for both public & their protection, religious fantacism is not much different.
Click to expand...

Have to say, the more you read about this attacker, the more this seems to nail things on the head.

He was clearly both psychopathic and suicidal, and should have been in Broadmoor or similar.

If someone actively wants to kill others indiscriminantly, and wants to die themselves in the process, then they are mentally ill and should be under detention for their own sake as well as for the protection of the general public - regardless of whether or not they have a religious motive.
It seems that there was plenty of evidence from his previous arrest and conviction that this was the case here.
 
tonyw said:
Have to say, the more you read about this attacker, the more this seems to nail things on the head.

He was clearly both psychopathic and suicidal, and should have been in Broadmoor or similar.

If someone actively wants to kill others indiscriminantly, and wants to die themselves in the process, then they are mentally ill and should be under detention for their own sake as well as for the protection of the general public - regardless of whether or not they have a religious motive.
It seems that there was plenty of evidence from his previous arrest and conviction that this was the case here.
Click to expand...
What evidence was there that he was psychopathic or suicidal?
 
Scotchegg said:
What evidence was there that he was psychopathic or suicidal?
Click to expand...

Messages to his girlfriend, friends and family discussing terrorist methodologies, use of various weapons, identification of various targets and pledging allegiance to IS.
His own personal notebook that included defining one of his lifetime personal goals being to die as a martyr, and go to paradise.
And the ownership and distribution of terrorist propaganda and instructional manuals, which is what landed him in jail in the first place.

In my opinion, it should have at least been sufficient for an assessment order under the mental health act - and then you have a pair of psychiatric professionals undertake an analysis.

But at this point, it doesn't seem to be standard procedure to treat religious fanaticism in the same way as your common-or-garden psychopathy or suicidal tendencies.
 
tonyw said:
Messages to his girlfriend, friends and family discussing terrorist methodologies, use of various weapons, identification of various targets and pledging allegiance to IS.
His own personal notebook that included defining one of his lifetime personal goals being to die as a martyr, and go to paradise.
And the ownership and distribution of terrorist propaganda and instructional manuals, which is what landed him in jail in the first place.

In my opinion, it should have at least been sufficient for an assessment order under the mental health act - and then you have a pair of psychiatric professionals undertake an analysis.

But at this point, it doesn't seem to be standard procedure to treat religious fanaticism in the same way as your common-or-garden psychopathy or suicidal tendencies.
Click to expand...

I'm in no way defending the guy, but none if what you describe suggests psychopathy or suicidal tendencies.

They are extremist Islamic views, and were bad enough for an active armed monitoring team to put him under constant observation, but that is a huge step away from being detained under the mental health act.
 
Not sure if still accurate today but in 2017 we had something like 25,000 radicalised Islamic jihadists living in the UK. We can't keep tabs on this number of individuals and I find it unlikely that serving 3/4 of a prison sentence is going to remove the risk of attack. It's like couch-grass - a new one will spring up somewhere regardless.

Glad nobody was killed this time.
 
Scotchegg said:
I'm in no way defending the guy, but none if what you describe suggests psychopathy or suicidal tendencies.

They are extremist Islamic views, and were bad enough for an active armed monitoring team to put him under constant observation, but that is a huge step away from being detained under the mental health act.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess now we're getting into the crux of the matter.

If someone has developed and expressed a desire to kill other people and themselves for non-religious reasons, then our society views them as mentally ill.
If someone has developed and expressed a desire to kill other people and themselves because that is how they are interpreting religious doctrine, then are we supposed to instead merely classify them as religious extremists?

There's a ton of conflicting academic literature on the topic, so I'm not going to argue that there's a clear cut answer to the question. There isn't.

But I know where I would instinctively come down on the issue.
 
tonyw said:
Well, I guess now we're getting into the crux of the matter.

If someone has developed and expressed a desire to kill other people and themselves for non-religious reasons, then our society views them as mentally ill.
If someone has developed and expressed a desire to kill other people and themselves because that is how they are interpreting religious doctrine, then are we supposed to instead merely classify them as religious extremists?

There's a ton of conflicting academic literature on the topic, so I'm not going to argue that there's a clear cut answer to the question. There isn't.

But I know where I would instinctively come down on the issue.
Click to expand...

It's far too complex an issue to even scratch the surface of, and I fully understand your concerns. However, radicalisation and extremism are issues that need to be treated very differently to serious mental health issues. It's not to undermine the threat that these people pose, actually it's more about managing this risk effectively rather than just labelling them as "mad".
 
Scotchegg said:
With the exception of the early release (which may only delay things), would any of those measures have prevented yesterday's incident or the one on London bridge?
Click to expand...

A 24 hour tag and an exclusion from particular places or area`s would greatly reduce the risk and that is at the softer end of the toolkit that should be available.

Anyone who has done the research into killing people, acid attacks and encouraging his partner to behead her parents all based on extreme religious ideology should at least be locked up in a secure place, if needs be indefinitely.

This guy had a reported 20 officers following him, he was released because liberal people think that people like him can be de-radicalised or integrated into society. They can`t.

We need to seriously think about revisiting Control Orders for the protection of the public rather than the watered down TPIM`s.

Edit: And it seems Lord Carlile agree`s and he has a breadth of knowledge on the matter.

www.bbc.co.uk

Streatham attack: Terror sentence changes 'face legal battle'

A former reviewer of terror laws questions plans to end early jail release after attacks in London.
www.bbc.co.uk

"Lord Carlile called for tougher restrictions on released prisoners, such as the reintroduction of control orders which were scrapped by the Coalition government in 2011." **

**They were forced to scrap by the ECHR under Article 5 actually but the BBC show their bias yet again.
 
Last edited:
Essexyellows said:
A 24 hour tag and an exclusion from particular places or area`s would greatly reduce the risk and that is at the softer end of the toolkit that should be available.

Anyone who has done the research into killing people, acid attacks and encouraging his partner to behead her parents all based on extreme religious ideology should at least be locked up in a secure place, if needs be indefinitely.

This guy had a reported 20 officers following him, he was released because liberal people think that people like him can be de-radicalised or integrated into society. They can`t.

We need to seriously think about revisiting Control Orders for the protection of the public rather than the watered down TPIM`s.

Edit: And it seems Lord Carlile agree`s and he has a breadth of knowledge on the matter.

www.bbc.co.uk

Streatham attack: Terror sentence changes 'face legal battle'

A former reviewer of terror laws questions plans to end early jail release after attacks in London.
www.bbc.co.uk

"Lord Carlile called for tougher restrictions on released prisoners, such as the reintroduction of control orders which were scrapped by the Coalition government in 2011." **

**They were forced to scrap by the ECHR under Article 5 actually but the BBC show their bias yet again.
Click to expand...

www.bbc.co.uk

Reading stabbing attack suspect Khairi Saadallah known to MI5 - sources

Khairi Saadallah held over three deaths came to the attention of security services in 2019, sources say.
www.bbc.co.uk

Just saying...................... its time those folk on the "watch list" were more than just watched for the benefit of the rest of us.
 
Essexyellows said:
www.bbc.co.uk

Reading stabbing attack suspect Khairi Saadallah known to MI5 - sources

Khairi Saadallah held over three deaths came to the attention of security services in 2019, sources say.
www.bbc.co.uk

Just saying...................... its time those folk on the "watch list" were more than just watched for the benefit of the rest of us.
Click to expand...

Are you aware of the man-power and costs involved of keeping one person under close serveillance around the clock?

I would imagine the number on the "watch list" numbers in the 10ks.

Easy to shout rhetoric, let's see you come up with some meaningful suggestions.
 
Navegante said:
Are you aware of the man-power and costs involved of keeping one person under close serveillance around the clock?

I would imagine the number on the "watch list" numbers in the 10ks.

Easy to shout rhetoric, let's see you come up with some meaningful suggestions.
Click to expand...
Indeed. The number of people "known to MI5" are huge. In the same way as a shoplifter and a murderer can both be "known to the police" the level of risk each poses could be vastly different. This guy would have been at the lower end of the scale and there was no way he could have been monitored to the level that would have prevented this.
 
Navegante said:
Are you aware of the man-power and costs involved of keeping one person under close serveillance around the clock?

I would imagine the number on the "watch list" numbers in the 10ks.

Easy to shout rhetoric, let's see you come up with some meaningful suggestions.
Click to expand...

Tag them. Restrict their movement. Call it house arrest if you like.
 
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