National News London Bridge

Pete Burrett

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But we shouldn't jump to conclusions that undermine the good of so many for an isolated, if extremely tragic, one off incident.
Good luck with that. Jumping to conclusions is the mainstay of certain posters on here and, judging by the media, many in the wider population. Saddest thing is, those conclusions are often formed based on personal bias and, dare I say, even bigotry.
 

Scotchegg

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Good luck with that. Jumping to conclusions is the mainstay of certain posters on here and, judging by the media, many in the wider population. Saddest thing is, those conclusions are often formed based on personal bias and, dare I say, even bigotry.
I would say that they are often formed on emotions, and believe me, I get that this is an emotional time for many.

But that doesn't make for the best decision making. Ironically, the biggest part of rehabilitation is to teach people the danger in acting impulsively, and allowing their emotions to control their thinking. As we see in wider society, this isn't an easy thing to change. It's not easy for me at this time, but if the deaths of these two young people mean anything then we must respect that they both looked beyond the offences and tried to help and change the person inside.
 

Pete Burrett

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I would say that they are often formed on emotions, and believe me, I get that this is an emotional time for many.

But that doesn't make for the best decision making. Ironically, the biggest part of rehabilitation is to teach people the danger in acting impulsively, and allowing their emotions to control their thinking. As we see in wider society, this isn't an easy thing to change. It's not easy for me at this time, but if the deaths of these two young people mean anything then we must respect that they both looked beyond the offences and tried to help and change the person inside.
I think you're being kind. Every time there's a terrorist incident, emotionally-charged comments are certainly made on here, often without any discernible logic being applied or any willingness to debate issues from different perspectives. But the basis of those comments is generally fear of things that are not fully understood, or bigotry-inspired hatred towards those who are different to 'us'. It's the curse of 'instant response' social media.
 

Essexyellows

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I worked with the young man who died, and knew of the young girl too. Neither were "youthfully naive". Jack was someone who believed in rehabilitation, but gave no one a free pass. He would openly challenge those who played lip service towards change and had high standards of all those who engaged in therapeutic learning.

Of course it's true that not everyone can, or will change. But every report indicated that the perpetrator of these murders had significantly reduced their risk and had been fully compliant with stringent supervision requirements since being released a year ago. Not only had it appeared that he had been "rehabilitated into a normal, reasonable society" but so had so many current and former prisoners who acted with such bravery both on the bridge, as seen in the media, but also at the venue.

I guess that we'll never know what triggered these events, and whether it was linked to a religious ideology or something else. But we shouldn't jump to conclusions that undermine the good of so many for an isolated, if extremely tragic, one off incident.
Whilst I am sorry for the loss of people you knew there is the naivety that a religious fanatic can be rehabilitated.
Society can throw as much funding, education etc at such people it will not change their deeply rooted belief that their "god" is everything.
They don`t have the humanistic belief that we can all bumble along together because their "god" and their "teachings" say so.
They are so indoctrinated that they will never lose that and become part of a tolerant society.
If there are 70+ people of a Jihadist nature in this country, that have been convicted of terrorist related activity, then every single one should be under the most stringent control or locked in a cell for the good of society.
These are not people that have been caught speeding or robbing folk..........they have conspired to either attempt to, or actually attack the society that we all belong too.
Whilst I believe many criminals can be rehabilitated and supported in making better life choices, you will never change the mindset of a religious fanatic, unless its with a couple of 9mm bits of metal.
 

Scotchegg

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Whilst I am sorry for the loss of people you knew there is the naivety that a religious fanatic can be rehabilitated.
Society can throw as much funding, education etc at such people it will not change their deeply rooted belief that their "god" is everything.
They don`t have the humanistic belief that we can all bumble along together because their "god" and their "teachings" say so.
They are so indoctrinated that they will never lose that and become part of a tolerant society.
If there are 70+ people of a Jihadist nature in this country, that have been convicted of terrorist related activity, then every single one should be under the most stringent control or locked in a cell for the good of society.
These are not people that have been caught speeding or robbing folk..........they have conspired to either attempt to, or actually attack the society that we all belong too.
Whilst I believe many criminals can be rehabilitated and supported in making better life choices, you will never change the mindset of a religious fanatic, unless its with a couple of 9mm bits of metal.
I disagree. If we look at the 70+ jihadists that are being spoken about, these are individuals who have been released from prison having previously serving sentences for terrorist related offences. Up until Friday lunchtime, none of these had come to the attention of the authorities for any wrong doing. So you could argue that they were under the most stringent of control measures, or had changed their views.

Of course, one such individual has then gone on to kill 2 people and injury others. We need to understand what changed. But it is possible that excluding someone from "normal and reasonable society" actually makes the situation worse.

I have seen many people who would die for their cause whilst terrorising others, and the most dangerous were actually part of the animal liberation front rather than religious fanatics. Most are very young when they start out, teens or early 20's. Their offending builds and they often cycle in and out of prison. Yet, over time their views soften and they come to realise that violence is not the answer and they fit in to 'normal' society. I'm by no means naive enough to think this applies to everyone but do fundamentally believe that everyone can change.

I would have dearly loved for things to have been different on Friday, but as heartbreaking as it has been, I still think that Jack, Saskia and others were doing the right thing.
 

Gary Baldi

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And the attack unfortunately highlights the real and deep problems we face if we allow ISIS jihadis back into the UK to face justice for their crimes. How can we rehabilitate these individuals, support and monitor them alongside the other items we have?

You can see why why the UK Govt prefers an approach of leaving them in Syria. Very hard to resolve.
 

Sarge

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And the attack unfortunately highlights the real and deep problems we face if we allow ISIS jihadis back into the UK to face justice for their crimes. How can we rehabilitate these individuals, support and monitor them alongside the other items we have?

You can see why why the UK Govt prefers an approach of leaving them in Syria. Very hard to resolve.
theres no easy fix

I was saddened, disgusted and disappointed that 'our' PM was making political points out of such a tragedy practically straight after the incident.
He, Johnson, should really take on board the words of Jack Merritt's ( one of the 2 murdered by Khan) father David, to not use his sons death to promote hatred or introduce draconian sentencing, instead of, as per usual, shooting from the lip, in a bad attempt to score points. Johnson and co are toxic IMO
 

Gary Baldi

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theres no easy fix

I was saddened, disgusted and disappointed that 'our' PM was making political points out of such a tragedy practically straight after the incident.
He, Johnson, should really take on board the words of Jack Merritt's ( one of the 2 murdered by Khan) father David, to not use his sons death to promote hatred or introduce draconian sentencing, instead of, as per usual, shooting from the lip, in a bad attempt to score points. Johnson and co are toxic IMO
No, but it does deserve some discussion in an adult way.

And sadly both the Tories and Labour have point scored on this. I'd rather they had left it well alone and were just there to listen to affected people and offer support. But with an election looming, that was never going to happen :(
 

Sarge

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No, but it does deserve some discussion in an adult way.

And sadly both the Tories and Labour have point scored on this. I'd rather they had left it well alone and were just there to listen to affected people and offer support. But with an election looming, that was never going to happen :(
Agree :cautious:
 

Essexyellows

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I disagree. If we look at the 70+ jihadists that are being spoken about, these are individuals who have been released from prison having previously serving sentences for terrorist related offences. Up until Friday lunchtime, none of these had come to the attention of the authorities for any wrong doing. So you could argue that they were under the most stringent of control measures, or had changed their views.

Of course, one such individual has then gone on to kill 2 people and injury others. We need to understand what changed. But it is possible that excluding someone from "normal and reasonable society" actually makes the situation worse.

I have seen many people who would die for their cause whilst terrorising others, and the most dangerous were actually part of the animal liberation front rather than religious fanatics. Most are very young when they start out, teens or early 20's. Their offending builds and they often cycle in and out of prison. Yet, over time their views soften and they come to realise that violence is not the answer and they fit in to 'normal' society. I'm by no means naive enough to think this applies to everyone but do fundamentally believe that everyone can change.

I would have dearly loved for things to have been different on Friday, but as heartbreaking as it has been, I still think that Jack, Saskia and others were doing the right thing.
Interesting to read in the paper that amongst the rehabilitated prisoners was a guy serving a long sentence for murder. He tried to help the victims as well as fighting off the attacker.
However the parents of his victim are now expressing anger/shock etc that was even allowed to be there without them knowing.

Now it doesn`t square the circle but some simple questions need answering.......... like why wasn`t the attackers bag checked? You can`t get in any public event/building without someone having a look through your bag.

As far as "British Jihadi`s" go then they have lost all rights as soon as they try, or succeed in striking back against this country.
They go to Syria (or anywhere else) then there they stay. Persona non grata.
 

Scotchegg

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Interesting to read in the paper that amongst the rehabilitated prisoners was a guy serving a long sentence for murder. He tried to help the victims as well as fighting off the attacker.
However the parents of his victim are now expressing anger/shock etc that was even allowed to be there without them knowing.

Now it doesn`t square the circle but some simple questions need answering.......... like why wasn`t the attackers bag checked? You can`t get in any public event/building without someone having a look through your bag.

As far as "British Jihadi`s" go then they have lost all rights as soon as they try, or succeed in striking back against this country.
They go to Syria (or anywhere else) then there they stay. Persona non grata.
"You can`t get in any public event/building without someone having a look through your bag."

This was a conference to celebrate the success of a prison education programme not the state opening of parliament. It's simply unrealistic to have expected bag searches.

As for the convicted murderer who intervened, it is not necessary to inform the victims families that someone is being released on licence every single time. The guy in question is a category D prisoner, held in an open prison. He is likely to have been on a number of accompanied escorts into the community, as well as unaccompanied releases to support him in reestablishing himself into society. He may well have completed community work, and maybe has a job. All of this helps support the long term rehabilitation of prisoners. Each release will be assessed by a risk board and factors such as proximity to the victims families, known risk factors and concerns about compliance will be taken into account. Police and probation reports will also be used. Not one of these previous releases have caused concern, nor have the thousands of releases that happen every week from open prisons, yet there is sudden outrage when a serving prisoner acts a hero on our streets?

That is exactly why these decisions can't be made with emotions.
 

Sarge

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"You can`t get in any public event/building without someone having a look through your bag."

This was a conference to celebrate the success of a prison education programme not the state opening of parliament. It's simply unrealistic to have expected bag searches.

As for the convicted murderer who intervened, it is not necessary to inform the victims families that someone is being released on licence every single time. The guy in question is a category D prisoner, held in an open prison. He is likely to have been on a number of accompanied escorts into the community, as well as unaccompanied releases to support him in reestablishing himself into society. He may well have completed community work, and maybe has a job. All of this helps support the long term rehabilitation of prisoners. Each release will be assessed by a risk board and factors such as proximity to the victims families, known risk factors and concerns about compliance will be taken into account. Police and probation reports will also be used. Not one of these previous releases have caused concern, nor have the thousands of releases that happen every week from open prisons, yet there is sudden outrage when a serving prisoner acts a hero on our streets?

That is exactly why these decisions can't be made with emotions.
Bag searches are common at most major sporting events, festivals, gigs, and other similarly large gatherings of people these days, especially in London and other large major UK cities .... that said its easy to be wise after the event

agree re cat D prisoners
agree re decisions shouldnt be made with emotions too
 

Scotchegg

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Bag searches are common at most major sporting events, festivals, gigs, and other similarly large gatherings of people these days, especially in London and other large major UK cities .... that said its easy to be wise after the event

agree re cat D prisoners
agree re decisions shouldnt be made with emotions too
And most bag searches are looking for contraband! Heaven forbid someone smuggled a hip flask into the Kassam but don't worry about the kitchen knives!!

At a time when our civil liberties are being eroded every day, I would like to think the one place where we wouldn't expected people to be searched was at an invited only rehabilitation event. I appreciate that this led to the tragic events but I strongly believe that we have to fight for normality as far as possible.
 

Essexyellows

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"You can`t get in any public event/building without someone having a look through your bag."

This was a conference to celebrate the success of a prison education programme not the state opening of parliament. It's simply unrealistic to have expected bag searches.

As for the convicted murderer who intervened, it is not necessary to inform the victims families that someone is being released on licence every single time. The guy in question is a category D prisoner, held in an open prison. He is likely to have been on a number of accompanied escorts into the community, as well as unaccompanied releases to support him in reestablishing himself into society. He may well have completed community work, and maybe has a job. All of this helps support the long term rehabilitation of prisoners. Each release will be assessed by a risk board and factors such as proximity to the victims families, known risk factors and concerns about compliance will be taken into account. Police and probation reports will also be used. Not one of these previous releases have caused concern, nor have the thousands of releases that happen every week from open prisons, yet there is sudden outrage when a serving prisoner acts a hero on our streets?

That is exactly why these decisions can't be made with emotions.
No sorry that is where you are completely wrong.
I`ve been to several events of late ranging from sports events, comedy shows, Classical concerts to small local band gigs and without exception bags were checked at all of them.
Now they might have been looking for whatever was on the "not allowed in" list but I`m fairly sure that had they checked the attackers bag and found a couple of kitchen knives and a fake suicide vest the outcome would be far different, three people would still be alive and this conversation wouldn`t be happening.
As a tolerant society I completely agree we should rehabilitate offenders and give them a fair chance to put things right, however there is a line that can be crossed, where it can be said that person has done something so heinous, so wrong that it would be a waste of time, money and effort and society is better off with out them.
 

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