National News London Bridge

PottersRightBoot

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Two innocent people killed and incredible bravery shown by members of public. Doesn’t stop Khan going immediately onto the political point scoring rampage on TV this morning. Even though the interviewer specifically said she didn’t want to go there. I’d rather the politicians weren’t interviewed and it was left to the police to explain what happened and how. Was there a guest list for this conference or did Mr Tag just rock up unannounced?
 

YellowTaxi

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I've heard a number of Conservative ministers making political points this morning.

Do you think Chris Grayling's privatisation of the probabtion service was a success Scotchegg? What about the rest of the Conservative interventions in the criminal justice systeM?
 

Peterdev

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There’s been so much political point scoring. All the condemnation of these terrorist acts does nothing to suggest anything will change. If the terrorists committing these acts were to face life imprisonment that wouldn't necessarily stop these atrocious acts against human life. It might indicate a willingness, however, to respond to such criminal acts more seriously
 

HampshireYellow

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Two innocent people killed and incredible bravery shown by members of public. Doesn’t stop Khan going immediately onto the political point scoring rampage on TV this morning. Even though the interviewer specifically said she didn’t want to go there. I’d rather the politicians weren’t interviewed and it was left to the police to explain what happened and how. Was there a guest list for this conference or did Mr Tag just rock up unannounced?
Bit like Boris then:

‘Johnson made an apparent bid for political mileage from the incident, claiming he had “long argued” that it is a “mistake to allow serious and violent criminals to come out of prison early and it is very important that we get out of that habit and that we enforce the appropriate sentences for dangerous criminals, especially for terrorists, that I think the public will want to see”.’
 

BigLad

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Two innocent people killed and incredible bravery shown by members of public. Doesn’t stop Khan going immediately onto the political point scoring rampage on TV this morning. Even though the interviewer specifically said she didn’t want to go there. I’d rather the politicians weren’t interviewed and it was left to the police to explain what happened and how. Was there a guest list for this conference or did Mr Tag just rock up unannounced?
Khan is a weasel of the worst kind, it’s not that long ago that he was part of legal team defending a terrorist linked to 9/11
 

BigLad

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Point scoring it might be, but it’s what the public wants to hear !

I’d go further and tell Sturgeon that part of independence is that we keep one of those freezing Scottish Islands in middle of nowhere and turn into our own Guantamoa Bay, Order 1000+ orange boiler suits and throw the 1000+ jihadist that MI5 are following in there indefinitely. Time to tell all the PC liberals like Shami Chakrabarti (Potential future Attorney General under Labour) who defended even known terrorist human rights that they can **** off !

All said with tongue in check of course but hey !
 

Scotchegg

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I've heard a number of Conservative ministers making political points this morning.

Do you think Chris Grayling's privatisation of the probabtion service was a success Scotchegg? What about the rest of the Conservative interventions in the criminal justice systeM?
One individual who had served his sentence as directed by the courts commits an offence. But at the same time, a prisoner still serving a life sentence is one of those who intervened.

Does the system make some people killers and others heroes, or is it in fact nothing whatsoever to do with the system that you are so quick to dismiss?

You have absolutely no idea about the level of supervision this individual was under, yet you can't wait to use this tragedy to attack the conservatives.

Absolutely f*****g pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself. I have worked with many people who would have been at the Learning Together event where the two people were killed, and haven't heard from a number of them since early yesterday. But you want to use the deaths of these innocent people for some cheap political gain? Get a bloody grip of yourself.
 

BigLad

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You do realise that that's what lawyers do, don't you? Everyone is entitled to a legal defence. Are you suggesting that makes solicitor Khan some kind of terrorist sympathiser?
All solicitors/defence barristers retain the right to not represent anyone charged by our legal system, he did not and should never be aloud to distance himself from his own choices in the past
 

YellowTaxi

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One individual who had served his sentence as directed by the courts commits an offence. But at the same time, a prisoner still serving a life sentence is one of those who intervened.

Does the system make some people killers and others heroes, or is it in fact nothing whatsoever to do with the system that you are so quick to dismiss?

You have absolutely no idea about the level of supervision this individual was under, yet you can't wait to use this tragedy to attack the conservatives.

Absolutely f*****g pathetic and you should be ashamed of yourself. I have worked with many people who would have been at the Learning Together event where the two people were killed, and haven't heard from a number of them since early yesterday. But you want to use the deaths of these innocent people for some cheap political gain? Get a bloody grip of yourself.
Sorry to hear about your friends and colleagues and condolences for those who were killed. I don't know what level of supervsion this man was under, youre right. But the people I know who work in probation services have said the privatisation is a diaster and the way the firms made a profit was to reduce the level of supervision. Is that incorrect?
 

radicalox

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Sorry to hear about your friends and colleagues and condolences for those who were killed. I don't know what level of supervsion this man was under, youre right. But the people I know who work in probation services have said the privatisation is a diaster and the way the firms made a profit was to reduce the level of supervision. Is that incorrect?
Jesus Christ man, learn to stfu. This thread isn't about leveraging a horrible event to make political points. Keep it to the general election thread.
 

carefreeoufc

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Aside from the politics how the hell does a known terrorist recently released from prison have the ability to purchase kitchen knives and props to make a dummy suicide vest?!

You’d like to think these people were closely monitored anyway let alone in the run up to an election!
 

Scotchegg

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Aside from the politics how the hell does a known terrorist recently released from prison have the ability to purchase kitchen knives and props to make a dummy suicide vest?!

You’d like to think these people were closely monitored anyway let alone in the run up to an election!
How do you stop this?

Anyone can buy kitchen knives legitimately, you can't give people plastic cutlery for the rest of their lives! As for the dummy suicide vest, I guess it depends on what was used. A few canisters and wires taped onto a vest could look convincing enough for someone who is acting in this way.

As for the monitoring, he would have been subject to regular meetings and supervision and was also wearing a tag. There's every possibility that he conformed to all licence conditions until they day of the attack, and it may have been impossible to predict.
 

Scotchegg

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Sorry to hear about your friends and colleagues and condolences for those who were killed. I don't know what level of supervsion this man was under, youre right. But the people I know who work in probation services have said the privatisation is a diaster and the way the firms made a profit was to reduce the level of supervision. Is that incorrect?
Contracting out supervision had very little to do with profits and only transferred one inadequate system of supervision for another. It was a disaster, but sadly is no different now it's gone back into public control.
 
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carefreeoufc

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How do you stop this?

Anyone can buy kitchen knives legitimately, you can't give people plastic cutlery for the rest of their lives! As for the dummy suicide vest, I guess it depends on what was used. A few canisters and wires taped onto a vest could look convincing enough for someone who is acting in this way.

As for the monitoring, he would have been subject to regular meetings and supervision and was also wearing a tag. There's every possibility that he conformed to all licence conditions until they day of the attack, and it may have been impossible to predict.
He’s not anyone though is he. He’s a man who’s been convicted and imprisoned on terrorist charges. It’s not Aunt Dorothy buying some new cutlery from TK Maxx.

It’s great if he went to his meetings and wore a tag but it’s not enough for certain crimes in my opinion. Bang a tag and have meetings with a shop lifter not someone like this
 

Scotchegg

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He’s not anyone though is he. He’s a man who’s been convicted and imprisoned on terrorist charges. It’s not Aunt Dorothy buying some new cutlery from TK Maxx.

It’s great if he went to his meetings and wore a tag but it’s not enough for certain crimes in my opinion. Bang a tag and have meetings with a shop lifter not someone like this
What's the alternative?
 

carefreeoufc

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What's the alternative?
Branding? I’m not sure on a serious note. I’m not one for pushing facial recognition but it works very, very well in China. Enhanced monitoring, more restrictions on the tag so he’s essentially house bound, GPS monitoring with banning orders of entering any major town or city.
 

Thomas/Brock/Jones

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Precisely. Everything seems to have questions, no-one seems to have sensible answers. Essentially, most of us enjoy living in a free society, but sometimes those freedoms present opportunities for bad people. We can 'should have' all we like but these rare incidents will, unfortunately, happen now and again.
These rare incidents seemed to have been a hell of alot rarer only a few years ago , freedoms for a guy who was plotting mass murder , sentenced to only coming out if deemed no longer a threat then just waved off after 7 years .... the basic facts are he should not have been out to murder innocent people.
 

Scotchegg

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Branding? I’m not sure on a serious note. I’m not one for pushing facial recognition but it works very, very well in China. Enhanced monitoring, more restrictions on the tag so he’s essentially house bound, GPS monitoring with banning orders of entering any major town or city.
I don't know the facts anymore than anyone else. But let's say that this individual had complied with all licence requirements, had completed various courses and rehabilitation work to address his offending behaviour, had found employment and had distanced himself from all old associates etc. His level of risk would be identified as being much lower and attention may have focused on those seen to be a much higher risk. However, risk assessments are not an exact science. Even with the very best intentions, you can still get things wrong.

Lesson will be learnt but it's important to be realistic about what we expect. We can not police every aspect of everyone's lives no matter how much we may want to.
 

stokeu

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So me and the Mrs were in borough market and were just about to cross the bridge when the helicopter arrived along with a load of blue lights. Everything was cooly handled by the police and they didn't add to the panic. We left just before the closed the underground as I'm sure they didn't need rubber neckers in the way although there were many.
 

Scotchegg

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As I feared, I knew the young man who was so tragically killed and suspect that I may have also known the second victim once they're identified. Jack Merritt was an exceptional young man who could have excelled in virtually any field, yet he committed his life to help change those who had done bad. He was no push over or liberal leftie, he would happily challenge those who only played lip service to change and gave no one a free pass. However, he had the ability to find good in others and sadly it was this trust he placed in others which may have led to his death.

The Learning Together project had inspired so many people to see that there were opportunities to live better lives on release, and I know of a number of people who were there yesterday who were building very successful lives after prison. One life sentenced prisoner who is now working with teenagers and young adults on the edge of the criminal justice system and he is saving and changing lives every day. He was injured trying to intervene. Another is still serving a life sentence for murder but didn't hesitate to do what he could to stop others bring hurt.

The tragedy is that I also knew Usman Khan having locked him up early on in his sentence when he was a young offender. He was actually very quiet and kept himself away from many of the Muslim gangs. By all accounts, he was no problem once he went into the adult estate and was seen as a low risk once released. Something obviously happened to trigger what we saw yesterday, but I would suggest that it would have been virtually impossible to predict the way things would unfold.

I appreciate that the criminal justice world is unknown to many, but it is not uncommon to find that some good people can carry out acts that many see as evil, whilst bad people can also carry out acts of real heroism. (The Lucifer Effect is a book that tries to explain this). But the legacy that hopefully comes from the work Jack did would be that life is far too short to hate. We achieve more by helping others change than we do by condemning them forever. Emotions run high and we can all want to hurt those who have hurt others (me very much included right now!), but that only plays into the hands of those who want to destroy what we stand for.
 

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