Ladies Manager Departs

[Concretebob]

[emoji993] @OfficialOUWFC have not been offered a place in the restructured WSL leagues. #OUFC remain fully committed to the development of the women’s game and we will keep fans updated of our plans

Being shoved out to make way for Man United. Disgraceful.

 

[Sarge]

Unless I’m mistaken this is more to do with the fa than the club !

Did request Oxvox (before your time on t'committee began @Dave T -so no finger wagging from me ) to look into this quite some time ago, which was done to be fair, but with not much in the way of answers as to why those with an interest at OUFC were 'holding fire' regarding registering/ applying for OUFC ladies in the forthcoming 'new' set up. ( Probably emailed the MD and had a patronising response? ).... that said, at the same time more pressing matters such as luck of manager/ head coach, and as it has since transpired, change of ownership of the football club were ongoing, so issues regarding OUFC ladies at that time really did, it appears take a back seat and get swept under the carpet in the greater scheme of things

 

[Craig]

Unless I’m mistaken this is more to do with the fa than the club ?

More yes, but the club definitely has to take some responsibility. Without question. They took a 'wait and see approach' and cited wanting to see how the structure of the league would work going forward before applying, but the application form was massively detailed (over 100 pages) and held just about every piece of information they could have needed. Even then they could have easily asked any questions if they needed further clarity.

If you followed the awards night, you probably know Lauren Haynes won an award for the good things she has done in the community. Lauren is currently club captain, but also a full-time employee of OUWFC. With changes our league status her job is now at the discretion of the club; basically she could very well be made redundant because her role is not a requirement at that level (I'm 99% certain of it). That's ultimately the clubs' decision but my point is this young, dedicated woman, who has done a lot of good in the community, could now be facing a life-altering moment through no fault of her own, when she shouldn't be.

And then there's someone like Hines, who suffered a long-term injury (ACL) towards the end of the season, but is easily good enough to play in WSL2/Championship. What a predicament she now finds herself in. Although she has full-time employment elsewhere to fall back on, it's still hardly ideal or fair for her footballing career.

I could go on but the point is there has been so much undue stress for so many people who only wanted to play the game they love. Honestly, the players show so much heart and integrity on the pitch, it's just a shame the morons sitting in their offices who make the decisions seem unable to demonstrate the same characteristics. And I've said it before, but how can you expect a game to grow if you constantly undermine its sporting integrity.

Ultimately all 3 clubs who didn't apply during the first phase were punished and weren't offered a WSL1 or Women's Championship license.

Sunderland who have been responsible for developing some of England's top players (6 or 7 in the current squad) have been really let down. For the FA to choose to not have a top level team in that region is quite unbelievable. As things stand, they will drop 2 divisions. So they Finish 7th, have to reapply to get a license they already earned on the pitch, and then get relegated 2 divisions!

And to make things worse, at the same time as not accepting Sunderland into the WSL, they now have 11 teams in that division. That's going to go well, isn't it? It didn't work with 9, so why would it work with 11?! No game for one of the teams one of the first and last games of the season; talk about a scheduling nightmare.

 

[mooro]

Mmmm, lets see how things go with eleven and then perhaps add a twelfth side next season, maybe one based in the North West of England and that have shown great progress over this season perhaps - someone like, errrr, I know Manchester United. Or have they decided to go with eleven in the belief that Yeovil will crack under financial pressure and then fold leaving them with a nice round ten?

Is the third tier going to be a single National division (as the name implies) or stay as two regional divisions (as currently)?
And will promotion from third to second tier be more open than it has been to date?

 

[Craig]

Mmmm, lets see how things go with eleven and then perhaps add a twelfth side next season, maybe one based in the North West of England and that have shown great progress over this season perhaps - someone like, errrr, I know Manchester United. Or have they decided to go with eleven in the belief that Yeovil will crack under financial pressure and then fold leaving them with a nice round ten?

Is the third tier going to be a single National division (as the name implies) or stay as two regional divisions (as currently)?
And will promotion from third to second tier be more open than it has been to date?

To be able to gain promotion you have to meet the leagues' criteria, which as things stand, is likely only to be one team: Man U. It looks like they're basically going to be allowed to have a full-time team in what is meant to be a part-time league, so should win the league with ease. Yeovil should be fine next season; they've secured the funds already I believe. Longer term though, I don't see how it's feasible for them to operate as a sustainable full-time club. It's a lot of money for a smaller club - hundreds of thousands each year (Sunderland lost £424k, Man City and Reading lost even more than that).

Third tier is still divided by north and south, so we'll probably get a derby next season. And yes, there should be more freedom between the divisions. Though it's still only likely to be 1 up, 1 down like this season. The only league that will be harder to break into is the WSL because of the extra financial pressure that comes with it. There are still definitely a few unanswered questions, which is crazy when the FA have had since September to attempt to make something as basic as promotion/relegation clear.

Here's a little more info. Can get promoted, if you meet the criteria. So if the plan is to promote 2 and relegate 1 from the WSL and Doncaster are one of those teams, the FA will offer help. I genuinely doubt it'll be enough, or be on-going but we'll see. Regardless, off the pitch matters will still decide how far you can progress. Bananas.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1001144046302257152

 

[nick68]

Very sad day for the Women's team, i have seen first hand the hard work that has gone into this in the past few seasons and that includes staff, players and volunteers. If you take a look at the map and plot the WSL1 and WSL2 (now Championship) teams you will see there is nothing in certain parts of the country ie. North East and South West so for players who want to stay at that level it means a massive decision; move house and jobs (for WSL2) or drop to a level that may not meet your personal ambition as a player. Personally i think it's poor that West Ham can go straight to WSL1 and Sheffield Utd can move up 2 leagues to WSL2 (Championship), not to mention Man Utd who although have maintained a women's academy haven't been interested in having a women's team since disbanding the last one in 2006. Of course they will have a massive budget and gain promotion most likely without losing a game but just like the mens game it seems money talks and not hard work on and off the pitch.

I also agree moving to a winter league was a crazy idea, as mentioned by someone else you then are in direct competition of the mens game. Stick to summer and you can cash in on the good weather, lack of other football enticing those needing a football fix and more importantly spread the cost of watching football across the year.

As for DidcotOx I would like to ask if you've ever attended a women's game, i don't mean on TV? If you could witness the excitement on the young fans faces after the game when they're queuing up for autograph alley and the chance to meet their heroes, that is what women's football is about for me getting a new generation involved in football. Last seasons women's team had 3 or 4 players who have been at the club since they were 8/9 years old plus more coming through, that is something you'll never see in the men's game.

Just think it's a real shame and hope they can get themselves sorted and get back up to that level in the near future.

 

[uptheus]

Unless I’m mistaken this is more to do with the fa than the club ?

Of course.

 

[Craig]

Watford were offered a place in tier 3 yesterday and promptly accepted. What about us? Maybe OxVox could ask for further clarity on the situation.

 

[Deleted member 462]

Good bit on bbc oxford breakfast show this morning speaking to local girls football coach. And ex Oufc women’s captain. Jerome will be putting some of the questions raised to the fa live on air after 8.30

 

[Craig]

Good bit on bbc oxford breakfast show this morning speaking to local girls football coach. And ex Oufc women’s captain. Jerome will be putting some of the questions raised to the fa live on air after 8.30

I'll look for a link in a bit. Ta.

The FA still have a lot to answer for, but ultimately the time for questions was months ago; it's done now, and while it's a painful and quite frankly ridiculous decision, we can't change that. They will spin the story the best the can and ignore genuine concerns. Women's football is big enough for people to care, but not big enough to induce countrywide outrage.

What I want to know is the clubs' plans going forward. We were going to be offered a place in Tier 3 (Women's National League). Watford have been offered and accepted their place, why aren't we making a similar announcement? I'd be extremely disappointed if we didn't and it would tell me one of a few things: 1) The club isn't really a community club - how can you call yourself a community club if you don't view and treat the whole community equally? Which would be the case if the club didn't allow and encourage the team to play at their full potential. It has taken over 15 years of hard work to earn their place, they should be allowed to keep performing at the highest possible level. Not to mention the fans and young girls who look up to our team. 2) Tiger might not have the resources a lot of people were hoping for if he's worried about saving a few quid by cutting funding to the women's team.

I'm normally someone who will give people the benefit of doubt and will naturally look for the positives, but I can't see any if the club decide to go any other direction than into the third tier. And the longer we wait, the more nervous I feel.

That's why I'd hoped OxVox might ask a question or two; it affects hundreds of Oxford fans and women's football in the wider community. I've tried in the past and basically got zilch from our MD.

 

[Deleted member 462]

Good bit on bbc oxford breakfast show this morning speaking to local girls football coach. And ex Oufc women’s captain. Jerome will be putting some of the questions raised to the fa live on air after 8.30

I'll look for a link in a bit. Ta.

The FA still have a lot to answer for, but ultimately the time for questions was months ago; it's done now, and while it's a painful and quite frankly ridiculous decision, we can't change that. They will spin the story the best the can and ignore genuine concerns. Women's football is big enough for people to care, but not big enough to induce countrywide outrage.

What I want to know is the clubs' plans going forward. We were going to be offered a place in Tier 3 (Women's National League). Watford have been offered and accepted their place, why aren't we making a similar announcement? I'd be extremely disappointed if we didn't and it would tell me one of a few things: 1) The club isn't really a community club - how can you call yourself a community club if you don't view and treat the whole community equally? Which would be the case if the club didn't allow and encourage the team to play at their full potential. It has taken over 15 years of hard work to earn their place, they should be allowed to keep performing at the highest possible level. Not to mention the fans and young girls who look up to our team. 2) Tiger might not have the resources a lot of people were hoping for if he's worried about saving a few quid by cutting funding to the women's team.

I'm normally someone who will give people the benefit of doubt and will naturally look for the positives, but I can't see any if the club decide to go any other direction than into the third tier. And the longer we wait, the more nervous I feel.

That's why I'd hoped OxVox might ask a question or two; it affects hundreds of Oxford fans and women's football in the wider community. I've tried in the past and basically got zilch from our MD.

It did say the M.D. is meeting with the people and management from the ladies team 2moro to discuss how to move forward. And there is also and appeals process.

I will raise it at the next committee meeting though. See if we can get any more answers

 

[Craig]

It did say the M.D. is meeting with the people and management from the ladies team 2moro to discuss how to move forward. And there is also and appeals process.

I will raise it at the next committee meeting though. See if we can get any more answers

That’s good to know, I’ll try to find that interview now.

The appeal process is pointless and basically PR fluff from the FA. There were 12 league places on offer, all of which are now taken. They would have to kick out a team (Man U? Leicester? Yeah right!) who are already planning for next season and two wrongs don’t make a right. All and in, it’s just a very shitty situation we’re now in, and would be even worse if we fell even further than tier 3.

Thanks Dave - much appreciated.

 

[Brahma]

Ultimately, like it or not, surely this boils down to costs and commercial viability?

The likes of Manchester United (who have been roundly criticised and ridiculed for not embracing a womens side in recent season) and West Ham United have bullied their way into the top echelons & can write off the losses that they might incur or need to invest as chicken feed. West Ham aren't even successful, they finished seventh in the National South Division, competing against Coventry United, Basildon and Chichester, they've not even got promoted by 'right'.

The club announcement, using words like 'taking stock', 'find our level' and 'financial commitment' should enable supporters to understand the decision. We didn't apply to retain our position, we took the process of trying to go toe-to-toe with the biggest clubs in the land with their money no object attitudes. The moment Andy Cook was announced as leaving, was the moment, that reality set in. The writing was on the wall.

I am as disappointed as the next man but I have two points.

1) Are we actually playing at a level that makes commercial sense? I appreciate it's emotive but playing in the National South, against Basildon, Portsmouth, Swindon, Coventry, Cardiff and Palace might be 'our level'. What's the quality difference like? I don't know and I am not saying it's right. To date we've been sending the team to Doncaster, Durham and Sheffield. I'm told it costs in excess of £500,000 per season.

2) Who are we blaming? It's easy to point the finger of blame in the direction of Tiger. He came in to this club in a rush, in Feb, had to sort out a number of pressing matters (financial bills and first team manager, plus the threat of relegation which would have been a killer to his project) and entrusted others to cover day-to-day matters. @Craig you are clearly very knowledgeable in this area, I'd hazard a guess decisions about the ladies team were taken/implemented before Tiger was announced - or at best shortly into his reign. He has been attributed to saying he continues to support an OUFC ladies team.

I am so disappointed for the girls in the first team, the current concerns of the girls in the system and on that pathway to senior ladies football and to the hard working supporters and those who became season ticket holders, who have had this taken away from them, albeit currently.

I have no doubt that we will continue a womens side, hopefully in the same division as Watford Ladies. I am equally convinced that with people like DAN HARRIS & the OUFC Community Team, this is simply a set-back, will enable a period of stock-taking and then a drive forward to reach the divisions on merit.

Generally, having paid a lot of attention to womens football in recent seasons, most of these clubs don't even employ full time coaches/managers (bar the top division), so until the industry changes it's ways, ladies football will continue to suffer from the lack of investment and/or real intent of their parent football clubs.

 

[Sarge]

Ultimately, like it or not, surely this boils down to costs and commercial viability?

The likes of Manchester United (who have been roundly criticised and ridiculed for not embracing a womens side in recent season) and West Ham United have bullied their way into the top echelons & can write off the losses that they might incur or need to invest as chicken feed. West Ham aren't even successful, they finished seventh in the National South Division, competing against Coventry United, Basildon and Chichester, they've not even got promoted by 'right'.

The club announcement, using words like 'taking stock', 'find our level' and 'financial commitment' should enable supporters to understand the decision. We didn't apply to retain our position, we took the process of trying to go toe-to-toe with the biggest clubs in the land with their money no object attitudes. The moment Andy Cook was announced as leaving, was the moment, that reality set in. The writing was on the wall.

I am as disappointed as the next man but I have two points.

1) Are we actually playing at a level that makes commercial sense? I appreciate it's emotive but playing in the National South, against Basildon, Portsmouth, Swindon, Coventry, Cardiff and Palace might be 'our level'. What's the quality difference like? I don't know and I am not saying it's right. To date we've been sending the team to Doncaster, Durham and Sheffield. I'm told it costs in excess of £500,000 per season.

2) Who are we blaming? It's easy to point the finger of blame in the direction of Tiger. He came in to this club in a rush, in Feb, had to sort out a number of pressing matters (financial bills and first team manager, plus the threat of relegation which would have been a killer to his project) and entrusted others to cover day-to-day matters. @Craig you are clearly very knowledgeable in this area, I'd hazard a guess decisions about the ladies team were taken/implemented before Tiger was announced - or at best shortly into his reign. He has been attributed to saying he continues to support an OUFC ladies team.

I am so disappointed for the girls in the first team, the current concerns of the girls in the system and on that pathway to senior ladies football and to the hard working supporters and those who became season ticket holders, who have had this taken away from them, albeit currently.

I have no doubt that we will continue a womens side, hopefully in the same division as Watford Ladies. I am equally convinced that with people like DAN HARRIS & the OUFC Community Team, this is simply a set-back, will enable a period of stock-taking and then a drive forward to reach the divisions on merit.

Generally, having paid a lot of attention to womens football in recent seasons, most of these clubs don't even employ full time coaches/managers (bar the top division), so until the industry changes it's ways, ladies football will continue to suffer from the lack of investment and/or real intent of their parent football clubs.

The situation re WSL / OUFC ladies was already beginning to rumble around the time Pep went, way before Tiger incoming was made official news
With faz as caretaker manager/head coach combined with a search for a replacement plus change of ownership methinks re OUFC ladies situation certain individuals on the admin side of OUFC took their eye of the ball (understandably)

Another thought is, with funding for auxillary teams and squads all coming from presumably a relatively small pot, perhaps OUFC ladies at a higher level has been sacrificed to pay for the new U23 squad and set up?

 

[Craig]

Ultimately, like it or not, surely this boils down to costs and commercial viability?

The likes of Manchester United (who have been roundly criticised and ridiculed for not embracing a womens side in recent season) and West Ham United have bullied their way into the top echelons & can write off the losses that they might incur or need to invest as chicken feed. West Ham aren't even successful, they finished seventh in the National South Division, competing against Coventry United, Basildon and Chichester, they've not even got promoted by 'right'.

The club announcement, using words like 'taking stock', 'find our level' and 'financial commitment' should enable supporters to understand the decision. We didn't apply to retain our position, we took the process of trying to go toe-to-toe with the biggest clubs in the land with their money no object attitudes. The moment Andy Cook was announced as leaving, was the moment, that reality set in. The writing was on the wall.

I am as disappointed as the next man but I have two points.

1) Are we actually playing at a level that makes commercial sense? I appreciate it's emotive but playing in the National South, against Basildon, Portsmouth, Swindon, Coventry, Cardiff and Palace might be 'our level'. What's the quality difference like? I don't know and I am not saying it's right. To date we've been sending the team to Doncaster, Durham and Sheffield. I'm told it costs in excess of £500,000 per season.

2) Who are we blaming? It's easy to point the finger of blame in the direction of Tiger. He came in to this club in a rush, in Feb, had to sort out a number of pressing matters (financial bills and first team manager, plus the threat of relegation which would have been a killer to his project) and entrusted others to cover day-to-day matters. @Craig you are clearly very knowledgeable in this area, I'd hazard a guess decisions about the ladies team were taken/implemented before Tiger was announced - or at best shortly into his reign. He has been attributed to saying he continues to support an OUFC ladies team.

I am so disappointed for the girls in the first team, the current concerns of the girls in the system and on that pathway to senior ladies football and to the hard working supporters and those who became season ticket holders, who have had this taken away from them, albeit currently.

I have no doubt that we will continue a womens side, hopefully in the same division as Watford Ladies. I am equally convinced that with people like DAN HARRIS & the OUFC Community Team, this is simply a set-back, will enable a period of stock-taking and then a drive forward to reach the divisions on merit.

Generally, having paid a lot of attention to womens football in recent seasons, most of these clubs don't even employ full time coaches/managers (bar the top division), so until the industry changes it's ways, ladies football will continue to suffer from the lack of investment and/or real intent of their parent football clubs.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Simon. Can't promise mine will be as organised as yours, but I'll try my best.

Money is a factor, I'm sure, but costs are a small percentage of the men's team. Look at our P&L since 2013. I think our total losses are roughly 70k per season. It's certainly in the tens of thousands, which is very little when the men's team have operating losses of £30k per week. Which is why, with all due respect, I doubt the (£500k) figure you mentioned. You only have to look at the women's accounts, unless you're implying we're not reporting figures correctly? WSL1 clubs cost £500k per season to operate, absolutely, but not WSL2 and below. Once I've replied, I'll look at their accounts and see what I can figure out. By their I mean other WSL2 clubs. But ultimately, without investment there will be no growth; there isn't a magic switch we can flick to make women's football, or football in general, more sustainable.

I believe our level should be determined by what happens on the pitch. If we use your argument then we (OUFC men) may as well not bother trying to achieve promotion to the Championship because we surely can't compete with clubs that have much, much bigger budgets. In financial terms League One might be our level, but that's not how football works. Nor should it be. Some of the women's players (Sophie, Demi and Ellie for example) have been with the club most their lives (10+ years each) to earn the right to play in WSL2 (we won our place on the pitch; it was taken away by suits in a boardroom). It must be heartbreaking for them.

In terms of who is responsible for making certain decisions, Darryl made the initial decision to not apply for a WSL2 license. The first phase was late last year and results of those applications were announced in December. So that's firmly on him. What happens now and in the future is on Tiger. I know I said the appeal process is basically an empty gesture, which I honestly believe it is, but do hope the club takes the opportunity to ask for feedback regarding our application to know which areas we could improve in the future. There was ultimately a lot of competition - something like 15 teams applied for a few places - but I'd still be interested to know how Lewes had a stronger application than us.

I also think it's fair to mention that while I'd like to know certain things and why decisions have been made, a lot of those questions would be directed towards Darryl rather than Tiger. What's next and what the future holds, though, is obviously going to be Tiger's responsibility.

WSL2 (now Championship) teams are required to have certain full-time employees. Manager, Marketing Officer (currently Lauren Haynes) and whatever role Ruth Senior currently occupies. I think her official title is the General Manager. I don't think tier 3 and below are required to have a Marketing Officer, I'm certain Charlton mentioned they had to employ someone in anticipation of being promoted to WSL2. So with that said, I truly hope Lauren keeps her job, if that's what she wants.

Regarding Andy Cook. He reportedly resigned in part due to the lack of support from elsewhere. He (along with Ruth Senior I believe) found himself responsible for a host of extra duties to keep the club running, like washing kits and boots. This was reported by Rich Laverty, a well regarded women's football writer.

I hope we enter the third tier. If the club chooses to enter at an even lower level, I'd be very disappointed for the players, staff, fans and the local girls who aspire to be like their heroes.

God, that's a jumbled mess. Hopefully I covered everything.

 

[Craig]

No worries. I see the fa are also about to announce a 2week winter break for the premier league. All of these decision are money based and b****r all to do with the fans or the market they are supposed to be attracting. Pm me over some specific questions mate, I’m not quite up to speed on the ladies side of things [emoji106]

Thanks again. I'll write a few down later, some of them may not be relevant after the meeting (may already been answered). Do you know who will be at the meeting exactly? That radio show was 3 hours! Or at least the replay was. Hopefully Lauren will be there. I'm sure she will be, as a full-time employee, and someone who can also best represent the players' interests.

 

[Craig]

Yeah, I would be surprised if she wasn’t. There’s one (dreaded) question - have we started looking for a new manager?

 

[Deleted member 462]

Yeah, I would be surprised if she wasn’t. There’s one (dreaded) question - have we started looking for a new manager?

What were the questions and answers to the fa on radio oxford btw? I missed that bit. Maybe one of the ex players or even current player might fancy stepping up in a player coach role? Be good to see one of the girls that has come through the system take over and help bring more through

 

[Craig]

What were the questions and answers to the fa on radio oxford btw? I missed that bit. Maybe one of the ex players or even current player might fancy stepping up in a player coach role? Be good to see one of the girls that has come through the system take over and help bring more through

Didn't learn much new really. Katie Brazier talked about results being made more unpredictable if it's more competitive, which will in turn raise interest and commercial opportunities. it's a shame the person conducting the interview didn't say why do results matter when decisions, like promotion and relegation, are decided by off the field decisions.

Basically the club were told when they didn't apply in the first phase that they would be against a lot of competition during the second phase, and they chose to do that. They then weren't awarded a license because of stronger applications.

Financial resources played a part in the decision.

Have been offered a place in National League South (3rd tier). Hopefully the club accepts. It'll be a lot of work and may struggle during the first season as we put a team together, but it'll be better than taking an even bigger step backwards.

 

[Deleted member 462]

https://www.oufc.co.uk/news/2018/may/women-accept-place-in-tier-3/