HMRC?

[Navegante]

Perhaps Tiger does has the funds. I worked in a small, financially struggling company where the majority shareholder was a multi-millionaire. He was quite happy for payments to HMRC and suppliers to be delayed until the very last moment before reluctantly putting his hand in his pocket. Caused the finance team (who obviously advised against this action) lots of hassle and stress, screwed up the credit rating, suppliers and the bank were irate and what not. For some reason, this was seen as a better option by the owner.

(Lets gloss over the fact that eventually the shareholder let the company go under!)

 

[Foley]

I think it's worth saying that the club operates at a significant annual loss without player sales and cup runs, somewhere between £1M and £2Million per year. In addition, Tiger had instalments to pay Ensco in April and September 2018, which may or may not have been funded by money coming in from past player sales. So the simple answer of using ticket income and shirt sales to pay bills doesn't really help when the bills come to more than the income.

My gut feeling is that Tiger has been waiting for Thohir to come in as an investor as well as a director in order to inject some cash. So rather than going to a payday loan company, Tiger has been waiting for this cash (or some other source of funds to arrive).

Or an alternative is that Tiger really has bitten off more than he can chew, there isn't enough money coming in to pay the bills, and the club really is up s**t creek.

The investors who might have been waiting to pick up the club on the cheap are now solidly stuck into Sunderland, and I can't see them dropping out of that project. In addition their plan seemed to have Water Eaton as a key part of it to make it financially viable which Bob Price later shot down.

That's exactly as I read it Mark.
No particular negligence of individuals at the club but some cash flow issues which (hopefully) will be resolved with the new Director on board.

 

[Ricey]

Have I missed something here, I haven’t read anywhere that Thohir is a cash investor only that he has joined the board which is very different.
Maybe this will happen but as of yet he isn’t offering any money just advice and knowledge.

 

[Foley]

Have I missed something here, I haven’t read anywhere that Thohir is a cash investor only that he has joined the board which is very different.
Maybe this will happen but as of yet he isn’t offering any money just advice and knowledge.

I don't think that we have been told much.
KR however today suggests that Tohir had a game changer for the club.
I would be more than a little surprised if Tohir or joins the Board and we go into liquidation through not paying debts though

 

[MarkG]

Have I missed something here, I haven’t read anywhere that Thohir is a cash investor only that he has joined the board which is very different.
Maybe this will happen but as of yet he isn’t offering any money just advice and knowledge.

It was just a guess as to a reason why there is unpaid tax. Could be completely wrong. No statement from the club unlike last time though.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The nearest we've got is this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060593841739362304

 

[myles]

Have I missed something here, I haven’t read anywhere that Thohir is a cash investor only that he has joined the board which is very different.
Maybe this will happen but as of yet he isn’t offering any money just advice and knowledge.

Indeed. As the latest OxVox "update" revealed, the new investors aren't actually buying into the club, they are buying into Tiger's holding company. And the ownership of that company currently stands as:

Tiger - 60%
Zaki Nuseibeh - 4.2%
Ghanem Nuseibeh (Z's brother) - 4.2%
Knightsbridge Asia Ltd - 31.5%

That last one is interesting, as it's a company registered in the British Virgin Isles. Not sure if this is the front for Erick Thohir, but probably worth somebody asking the question.

With the latest winding-up petition from HMRC, I think it's absolutely vital that some questions are asked about the club's current financial position. What is the current debt? Who is it owed to?* Why are HMRC payments being missed?

*Worth noting that the charge held by Ensco is still showing at Companies House as unsatisfied.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

No idea how these processes work really, but is it possible that OUFC have been trying to fend this off for a while and negotiate with HMRC over when payments are made, stating that new investment is imminent?

Just seems an awful big coincidence that the club are slapped with a notice on the very same day that Tohir is announced.

Also, is it possible that 3rd party creditors are forcing this issue with HMRC to focus the controlling minds of OUFC and make sure they get their investment back??

 

[Corporate_Clive]

home defeat

 

[warksox]

This article explains a bit about how the petition process works, in paritcular with football clubs:

https://www.companyrescue.co.uk/gui...-winding-up-petition-on-a-football-club-4005/

One bit that may be relevant states "with the level of players wages the total PAYE liability of the club is usually very high. Any delay in the payments of these amounts over the HMRC does give the club a cashflow boost".

It seems delaying PAYE payments till the last minute is a common tactic for football clubs to boost cashflow. Missing the final warning though (if that's what happened) does, as others have said, show a lack of professionalism that the new FD needs to quickly sort out.

 

[Oufc28]

home defeat

Now I know you're a windup merchant. No fan or anybody with sense will expect us to lose tomorrow. We haven't lost in 6 to a team in our division let alone one in the league below. That is not to say we shouldn't give FGR respect and mentally prepare for this game like any other. To think we will lose it beforehand is just bizarre.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Interesting that you think this matters? As someone with a journalistic background may be you could explain the impact this has on the day to day running of the club? Or are you jumping on the Hawks scaremongering bandwagon?!

I always love your responses - you bounce higher than any rubber ball I’ve ever encountered, every time. Why are you so angry 24/7?

Do I think it matters that the club is repeatedly getting winding up orders? Yes. Yes I do. Just the same as I would think it mattered if my business kept getting red notices through the door, or was getting phone calls to say bailiffs were coming round. I think that’s REALLY concerning. The question is, why don’t you?

 

[PottersRightBoot]

Come on Oxvox start asking questions.

 

[MarkG]

Indeed. As the latest OxVox "update" revealed, the new investors aren't actually buying into the club, they are buying into Tiger's holding company. And the ownership of that company currently stands as:

Tiger - 60%
Zaki Nuseibeh - 4.2%
Ghanem Nuseibeh (Z's brother) - 4.2%
Knightsbridge Asia Ltd - 31.5%

That last one is interesting, as it's a company registered in the British Virgin Isles. Not sure if this is the front for Erick Thohir, but probably worth somebody asking the question.

With the latest winding-up petition from HMRC, I think it's absolutely vital that some questions are asked about the club's current financial position. What is the current debt? Who is it owed to?* Why are HMRC payments being missed?

*Worth noting that the charge held by Ensco is still showing at Companies House as unsatisfied.

* though isn’t the loan due Ensco to be paid by sometime in 2019? So it hasn’t been repaid early and hence the charge still stands.

 

[Scotchegg]

I always love your responses - you bounce higher than any rubber ball I’ve ever encountered, every time. Why are you so angry 24/7?

Do I think it matters that the club is repeatedly getting winding up orders? Yes. Yes I do. Just the same as I would think it mattered if my business kept getting red notices through the door, or was getting phone calls to say bailiffs were coming round. I think that’s REALLY concerning. The question is, why don’t you?

So to the question I asked, what impact does this have on the day to day running of the club? My suggetsion is absolutely nothing. You imply that there has been more than 2 occasions where this has happened, but nothing has changed. No formal winding up order (not the petition we see here), no restrictions on our financial arrangemnets, no penalties against the club, no baliffs coming round - nothing.

So what are you REALLY concerned about?

 

[myles]

* though isn’t the loan due Ensco to be paid by sometime in 2019? So it hasn’t been repaid early and hence the charge still stands.

Quite probably. But I had someone on here absolutely adamant that it had been paid off, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

[Witney Wag]

It is justifiable for supporters to be concerned about such things as missing payment deadlines. It’s time that the supporters trust ask some questions as to what is really happening and share the answers, not fall back on the “confidential” argument.

Myles has raised some real questions and concerns.

 

[myles]

So to the question I asked, what impact does this have on the day to day running of the club? My suggetsion is absolutely nothing. You imply that there has been more than 2 occasions where this has happened, but nothing has changed. No formal winding up order (not the petition we see here), no restrictions on our financial arrangemnets, no penalties against the club, no baliffs coming round - nothing.

So what are you REALLY concerned about?

Setting aside the fact that a second winding up petition in a fairly short order is indicative of financial mismanagement, of course it’s going to have some effect on the day to day running of the club. The club has hardly been stashing away the tax due in a savings account, ready to pay at the last moment.

So, someone now needs to find the money to satisfy the tax man. Which means that funds which may have been allocated for other purposes, eg January transfers, is now needed elsewhere.

There is also the point that HMRC will now be keeping a much closer eye on the club and are likely to be less tolerant of any future late payment.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

So to the question I asked, what impact does this have on the day to day running of the club? My suggetsion is absolutely nothing. You imply that there has been more than 2 occasions where this has happened, but nothing has changed. No formal winding up order (not the petition we see here), no restrictions on our financial arrangemnets, no penalties against the club, no baliffs coming round - nothing.

So what are you REALLY concerned about?

I cannot believe that your response to multiple winding up orders is to shrug and go “Oh well, as long as it gets sorted before they shut the club down is doesn’t matter, what harm is it doing really?” You’re genuinely okay with this way of operating? You’re okay with the club either not being able, or not willing to, pay bills on time without having court dates set? You think that’s COMPLETELY normal? And you think it’s so normal that you’re asking me questions like I’M the weird one for finding it unsettling that in one calendar year we have had more winding up orders than we’ve had in the last 20 years? Honestly? Genuinely, I can’t believe such an attitude exists. You know the club’s ability to borrow will now be virtually zero, right? You know that because of the state of the credit rating on the back of all this that we would be deemed a near basket case by almost any and every financial institution? And yet you really, honestly, truly believe that it’s completely and utterly irrelevant because on the surface you can’t ‘see’ that it’s doing any damage. What do you think the FA and EFL make of their clubs being repeatedly issued winding up orders? Do you think they don’t care or pay any attention to it? Do you think it means nothing to them? But it’s all okay, because as long as the photo copier has toner in it and the team coach has diesel in it, it’s a non-issue.

How on earth can you truly think this is irrelevant? You don’t need any special ‘insight’ into the game or the club itself to understand that repeatedly being taken to court, and issued with petitions that are ultimately designed to liquidate your business if you don’t pay, isn’t normal or a sign that everything is fine. If it was it would happen to most clubs, often. The fact is that it doesn’t, because it’s negligent and dangerous on a level that most owners and management figures would never dare mess with, let alone multiple times.

If you really think it’s fine to be getting repeated winding up orders, more power to you. I wish I could believe in fairies too.

 

[RyanioBirdio]

Setting aside the fact that a second winding up petition in a fairly short order is indicative of financial mismanagement, of course it’s going to have some effect on the day to day running of the club. The club has hardly been stashing away the tax due in a savings account, ready to pay at the last moment.

So, someone now needs to find the money to satisfy the tax man. Which means that funds which may have been allocated for other purposes, eg January transfers, is now needed elsewhere.

There is also the point that HMRC will now be keeping a much closer eye on the club and are likely to be less tolerant of any future late payment.

Myles, relax, as long as the ticket office can still print orders and the kit man has washing powder, this is all irrelevant.