England v Italy EURO 2020 Cup Final

[Junior_1]

Southgate was saying today that he’s not sure he wants to stay beyond the World Cup, so the haters might get their wish soon enough.

Hang on. Nobody is hating on Southgate. He’s a good bloke. One who’s got very close to winning the thing. But there’s been faults. People need to be alive to that too.

He needs to be asked about his selections. Not just the 5 lads who took a pen.

He needs to be asked about his selections.

He needs to be asked about Jack Grealish and the ways he was underused.

He needs to be asked about his tactics, the way he set up. Was it deliberate to sit back and invite Italy on?

How about the subs for pens?

Saka above DCL, DCL who is. Pen taker for Everton and for Jordan Henderson grabbing the ball from him on the warm his, may well have scored…

 

[tonyw]

Can you point me to an international side who you would regard as entertaining? I’d cite France 1998-2000 and Spain 2008-2012. That’s probably it. There’s been plenty of sides I’d admire but even some of the great Brazil sides and Germany teams have been effective by their functionality.

Honestly, I thought the Spanish side in 2010 were tedious as ****!
Don't get me wrong, they were a very, very good team. But it was all about possession and control - not about free-flowing attacking football. Their four knockout matches that tournament? 1-0, 1-0, 1-0 and 1-0 (aet). They scored a grand total of eight goals in their seven games. George Graham would have been proud.
They weren't much better in Euro 2012, other than the final when they suddenly turned it on (though I will admit they were brilliant in 2008, which I still think is the best tournament of the millenium so far).

As far as World Cups go, I would argue that both the German team in 2014 and the French team in 2018 were more entertaining than the Spanish. They certainly scored a lot more goals.

But the general point is sound - winning at the top level is more often about the quality of your defensive play and organisation than it is a measure of pure skill and flair. Still really looking forward to next year (whilst of course wishing that it wasn't in the desert in December). Brazil and Argentina look like they're going to be decent, Italy will obviously still be good, Spain have eighteen months to find a striker that can shoot straight - if they can do that, they'll be dangerous. And England will surely be in the mix as well. Southgate-ball should be particularly effective when it's too ****ing hot to run for more than a few seconds at a time!

 

[Foley]

he has to adapt to the better players available to him

Agree that it the key thing.
The trouble is that with the WC next year I wonder how many games there are first?
The next stage I would think is to try and stay solid defensively but use the more attacking players to better effect. He has to try and get Foden in the team.
Winners of tournaments always always do it based on a solid defence, so trying to balance the 2 is the challenge

 

[horseman]

Hang on. Nobody is hating on Southgate. He’s a good bloke. One who’s got very close to winning the thing. But there’s been faults. People need to be alive to that too.

He needs to be asked about his selections. Not just the 5 lads who took a pen.

He needs to be asked about his selections.

He needs to be asked about Jack Grealish and the ways he was underused.

He needs to be asked about his tactics, the way he set up. Was it deliberate to sit back and invite Italy on?

How about the subs for pens?

Saka above DCL, DCL who is. Pen taker for Everton and for Jordan Henderson grabbing the ball from him on the warm his, may well have scored…

Why because some random fans across the country chose a different 11

We made the final only losing on penalties so his selection and use of subs as and when are justified

This is something that often happens but is only questioned when the outcome doesn't go your way, as i've said already in the thread think Paul Powell !

But in your questioning Sancho and Rashford were the error so logic states why DCL does it not

I've also answered the Saka debate, it matters not if he was 5th 7th 9th whenever as the pressure would still be the same for "All" players. it either goes in or not

Do you question Kane taking one when he missed just a few days before? as that would have been used had he missed because some people cannot handle we lost in a lottery situation when someone for either team was at some point going to miss.

 

[Followtheox1]

People describing the mob storming the gates at Wembley like it’s a new, outrageous phenomenon either aren’t aware of or have forgotten the scenes such as those at the old Wembley in 1986; Liverpool/ Everton cup final and ticketless fans climbing the outside of stairwells to be dragged in through windows by mates on the inside. Those not brave or stupid enough to do that forcing their way in anyway.
And people getting offended by booing a national anthem? Also nothing new, I don’t agree with it but may I suggest a visit to Hampden with England? Not if you’re easily offended I wouldn’t.

So you have given an example of it

Agree that it the key thing.
The trouble is that with the WC next year I wonder how many games there are first?
The next stage I would think is to try and stay solid defensively but use the more attacking players to better effect. He has to try and get Foden in the team.
Winners of tournaments always always do it based on a solid defence, so trying to balance the 2 is the challenge

We miss a bit of creativity and abilty to dictate tempo in central midfield. Interestingly Pep has talked about Foden developing into that role at City as opposed to his current front three role. Could really be good for England.

 

[Oufc28]

Hang on. Nobody is hating on Southgate. He’s a good bloke. One who’s got very close to winning the thing. But there’s been faults. People need to be alive to that too.

He needs to be asked about his selections. Not just the 5 lads who took a pen.

He needs to be asked about his selections.

He needs to be asked about Jack Grealish and the ways he was underused.

He needs to be asked about his tactics, the way he set up. Was it deliberate to sit back and invite Italy on?

How about the subs for pens?

Saka above DCL, DCL who is. Pen taker for Everton and for Jordan Henderson grabbing the ball from him on the warm his, may well have scored…

I think he was on a hiding to nothing so went for what we are good at.

If he had gone attacking and Italy picked us off on the counter attack he would have been criticised for not sticking with what got us to the final which was being solid.

Its all 'what ifs' at this point. If we had won nobody would have cared one second that grealish had played so little. If Rashford had scored his penalty and we went on to win then nobody would moan about the penalty takers coming on.

Yes I think their were tactical errors in the final. I believe we should have been braver in the second half especially when Italy were on top but even with these errors it still took a class Italian side penalties to beat us.

I think Southgate is the man to take us to the world Cup next year and I think he will learn. It will be more difficult as their are a lot more better sides in the tournament but I'm excited for it.

 

[werthersoriginal]

I think he was on a hiding to nothing so went for what we are good at.

If he had gone attacking and Italy picked us off on the counter attack he would have been criticised for not sticking with what got us to the final which was being solid.

Its all 'what ifs' at this point. If we had won nobody would have cared one second that grealish had played so little. If Rashford had scored his penalty and we went on to win then nobody would moan about the penalty takers coming on.

Yes I think their were tactical errors in the final. I believe we should have been braver in the second half especially when Italy were on top but even with these errors it still took a class Italian side penalties to beat us.

I think Southgate is the man to take us to the world Cup next year and I think he will learn. It will be more difficult as their are a lot more better sides in the tournament but I'm excited for it.

I'm not sure we could have been braver in the second half - we couldn't get hold of the ball, or get out of our own half with it! He needed to change the formation or bring on subs sooner, and probably Saka wasn't the best one to throw on first. But what do I know really?

 

[Oufc28]

I'm not sure we could have been braver in the second half - we couldn't get hold of the ball, or get out of our own half with it! He needed to change the formation or bring on subs sooner, and probably Saka wasn't the best one to throw on first. But what do I know really?

I think we could have atleast tried to throw a few counter attacks, but when we did have the ball we were content with keeping it and then ultimately losing it. Dont think at point second half did we break through and worry Italy.

 

[Junior_1]

Italy were never getting behind us, they had no pace to do so.

From behind (the England end) You could see how deep we were even when we had the ball. The whole team had to be braver and push 20 yards up the pitch. Push our wide players on and get Kane up against the CB’s in their half.

We couldn’t get the ball because of how deep we were.

Comes back to GS being brave enough to change it.

 

[horseman]

Italy were never getting behind us, they had no pace to do so.

From behind (the England end. You could see how deep we were even when we had the ball. The whole team had to be braver and push 20 yards ho the pitch. Push our wide players on and get Kane up against the CB’s in their half.

We couldn’t get the ball because of how deep we were.

Comes back to GS being brave enough to change it.

So now Italy had no pace to get behind us, this dominating team are not looking too good after all are they !

I assume you may of seen Italy in their other games? their pass and movement was excellent and they did indeed attack with pace.

We lost the Lottery you really need to let it go

 

[Big Ron]

Italy were never getting behind us, they had no pace to do so.

From behind (the England end) You could see how deep we were even when we had the ball. The whole team had to be braver and push 20 yards up the pitch. Push our wide players on and get Kane up against the CB’s in their half.

We couldn’t get the ball because of how deep we were.

Comes back to GS being brave enough to change it.

No doubt you got all of the tactical calls and selections right in the other games as well.

As frequently mentioned, nobody here thought Italy weren't worthy winners and we agree that Southgate made mistakes in the final, it's the reluctance to give him any credit overall that grates. That and finding any stick to beat him with - my favourite being that he was isolated from his coaching team because they weren't in his ear all of the time (unlike Mancini).

I can't be bothered to go back but I suspect you disagreed with the players and management taking the knee. Southgate eloquently defended those actions and has show great leadership in what is one of the hardest, if not the hardest, jobs in UK sport. He came up short, yes, but he showed an adaptability not obvious in most of his predecessors.

 

[Junior_1]

I’ll save you the bother. Yes I was. Still am. I booed at Wembley on Sunday along with a plenty of others.

No doubt that wasn’t picked up as Wembley / The FA were more than likely keen to drown them out by the PA.

Anyway, that’s another subject. Happy to discuss that away from this thread.

I like Southgate. I respect him.

His record for England is very impressive and for that he gets my backing moving forward and also my respect.

Respect for shielding his players although I don’t agree with his tactics in the final it’s very hard to complain throughout the tournament.

I’m old school. I’m very much win at all cost and if you entertain along the way, great.

But has he learnt he lessons?

It’s mentioned on here somewhere but Sunday was almost identical to the Croatia game.


But back to Sunday. Call it what you will but sadly for us (assuming you’re English) he got it wrong and came off second best to Mancini.

Again, not sure if it was audible on the tv, but the crowd, from what I could hear around me, we were crying out for changes.

Every time Grealish warmed up the crowd came alive. Likewise when he finally got on. That also transferred it self to every time he got the ball.

He should have been on for rice, not that he should have came off as he was our best player. Henderson was dreadful.

The pen takers debate has been done all over since Sunday and dosent need mentioning again. All I’ll say is fair play to every single player who stepped up.

Southgate picked them based on training. Taking pens at St. George’s Park without the pressure of the crowd and the million’s watching so very different as he should well remember from ‘96.

Where was Sterling, where was Henderson? Pickford got mentioned prior to the tournament as being a pen taker. Like Maguire, at least he’d have put his foot through it.

 

[Big Ron]

I’ll save you the bother. Yes I was. Still am. I booed at Wembley on Sunday along with a plenty of others.

No doubt that wasn’t picked up as Wembley / The FA were more than likely keen to drown them out by the PA.

Anyway, that’s another subject. Happy to discuss that away from this thread.

I like Southgate. I respect him.

His record for England is very impressive and for that he gets my backing moving forward and also my respect.

Respect for shielding his players although I don’t agree with his tactics in the final it’s very hard to complain throughout the tournament.

I’m old school. I’m very much win at all cost and if you entertain along the way, great.

But has he learnt he lessons?

It’s mentioned on here somewhere but Sunday was almost identical to the Croatia game.


But back to Sunday. Call it what you will but sadly for us (assuming you’re English) he for it wrong and came off second best to the Mancini.

Again, not sure if it was audible on the tv, but the crowd, from what I could hear around me, were crying out for changes.

Every time Grealish warmed up the crowd came alive. Likewise when he finally got on. That also transferred it self to every time he got the ball.

He should have been on for rice, not that he should have came off as he was our best player. Henderson was dreadful.

The pen takers debate has been done all over since Sunday and dosent need mentioning again. All I’ll say is fair play to every single player who stepped up.

Southgate picked them based on training. Taking pens at St. George’s Park without the pressure of the crowd and the million’s watching so very different as he should well remember from ‘96.

Where was Sterling, where was Henderson? Pickford got mentioned prior to the tournament as being a pen taker. Like Maguire, at least he’d have put his foot through it.

Yep, the penalty debate has been done but is that the same Henderson that missed a penalty versus Columbia and in a pre-tournament game? It's not always that straight forward is it.

 

[Leysboy]

Might as well close this thread now mods.

We had our chance and blew it. We move on now, and see what OUFC dish up for us this season.

 

[Junior_1]

Yep, the penalty debate has been done but is that the same Henderson that missed a penalty versus Columbia and in a pre-tournament game? It's not always that straight forward is it.

As much as he was poor. I’d back Henderson over Saka purely on the experience level. But Sterling should have been up before both of them. A pen taker for Manchester City and a scorer from the spot at Wembley in a final .

Guess he didn’t fancy it.

Rashford - fair enough. He usually takes a good penalty. Why he changed his approach, only he knows.

 

[Oufc28]

I’ll save you the bother. Yes I was. Still am. I booed at Wembley on Sunday along with a plenty of others.

No doubt that wasn’t picked up as Wembley / The FA were more than likely keen to drown them out by the PA.

Anyway, that’s another subject. Happy to discuss that away from this thread.

I like Southgate. I respect him.

His record for England is very impressive and for that he gets my backing moving forward and also my respect.

Respect for shielding his players although I don’t agree with his tactics in the final it’s very hard to complain throughout the tournament.

I’m old school. I’m very much win at all cost and if you entertain along the way, great.

But has he learnt he lessons?

It’s mentioned on here somewhere but Sunday was almost identical to the Croatia game.


But back to Sunday. Call it what you will but sadly for us (assuming you’re English) he got it wrong and came off second best to Mancini.

Again, not sure if it was audible on the tv, but the crowd, from what I could hear around me, we were crying out for changes.

Every time Grealish warmed up the crowd came alive. Likewise when he finally got on. That also transferred it self to every time he got the ball.

He should have been on for rice, not that he should have came off as he was our best player. Henderson was dreadful.

The pen takers debate has been done all over since Sunday and dosent need mentioning again. All I’ll say is fair play to every single player who stepped up.

Southgate picked them based on training. Taking pens at St. George’s Park without the pressure of the crowd and the million’s watching so very different as he should well remember from ‘96.

Where was Sterling, where was Henderson? Pickford got mentioned prior to the tournament as being a pen taker. Like Maguire, at least he’d have put his foot through it.

In fairness i agree with a lot of what you're saying.

The penalty debate is hard from outsiders to grasp. For all we know sterling may have said 'sorry boss, but I have been inconsistent with penalties this season i don't want to take one'. If that's the case that takes some bottle too. You can't imagine the pressure any of those 11 on the pitch were under when that game went to penalties. Under pressure to say yes, under pressure to say no, under pressure to go first or last or even at number 6 where it becomes sudden death. It must be awful for players and the managers.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

.

 

[werthersoriginal]

I’ll save you the bother. Yes I was. Still am. I booed at Wembley on Sunday along with a plenty of others.

No doubt that wasn’t picked up as Wembley / The FA were more than likely keen to drown them out by the PA.

Anyway, that’s another subject. Happy to discuss that away from this thread.

I like Southgate. I respect him.

His record for England is very impressive and for that he gets my backing moving forward and also my respect.

Respect for shielding his players although I don’t agree with his tactics in the final it’s very hard to complain throughout the tournament.

I’m old school. I’m very much win at all cost and if you entertain along the way, great.

But has he learnt he lessons?

It’s mentioned on here somewhere but Sunday was almost identical to the Croatia game.


But back to Sunday. Call it what you will but sadly for us (assuming you’re English) he got it wrong and came off second best to Mancini.

Again, not sure if it was audible on the tv, but the crowd, from what I could hear around me, we were crying out for changes.

Every time Grealish warmed up the crowd came alive. Likewise when he finally got on. That also transferred it self to every time he got the ball.

He should have been on for rice, not that he should have came off as he was our best player. Henderson was dreadful.

The pen takers debate has been done all over since Sunday and dosent need mentioning again. All I’ll say is fair play to every single player who stepped up.

Southgate picked them based on training. Taking pens at St. George’s Park without the pressure of the crowd and the million’s watching so very different as he should well remember from ‘96.

Where was Sterling, where was Henderson? Pickford got mentioned prior to the tournament as being a pen taker. Like Maguire, at least he’d have put his foot through it.

Interesting. Anyone I see booing players taking the knee will be reported and I imagine banned by the club.

 

[SteMerritt]

.

I was more angry about the pull on Saka at the time than the stamp on Grealish, Mrs M told me off for excessive swearing at the TV 90th minute wasn't it, and he was clear. I'd have sent Chiellini off.

 

[Sheik djibouti]

I was more angry about the pull on Saka at the time than the stamp on Grealish, Mrs M told me off for excessive swearing at the TV [emoji23] 90th minute wasn't it, and he was clear. I'd have sent Chiellini off.

Agreed....he's still holding on now...just look at him!