Education or Religious Beliefs?

proper hot potato is that one @Essexyellows

Im a firm believer of the rights of any individual regarding freedom of choice, including which imaginary friend religion they may or may not chose to follow, to a lesser or greater degree... as long as the said individual doesnt attempt to impose their beliefs ( including pre-medieval - in most cases- 'teachings', , laws and the like) on others

the question of at what age children should be taught about LGBT is not an easy one to answer

however, personally I find it some what hypocritical that older relatives of primary school age children object to certain subjects being taught to children, as part of the National Curriculum ( overseen by the National Education and schools depts of the UK government- elected by Uk residents, who have chosen to live in in the UK, therefore by default, if not accepting fully, at least should be adhering to the laws of the land... which includes education for all children), , yet appear think its acceptable to impose a religion- any religion, ( with all its teachings) on their children, who are too young to understand fully what , probably well-intentioned, well-meaning, in general, older relatives insist they become a part of.

If its acceptable to impose any religion on young children, then, certainly if you chose to live in the UK, it should be acceptable to adhere to the laws of the UK - including Education laws, rules n regs etc applicable to young children

Education is without question a good thing ..... Religion however has been & no doubt will continue to be at the root
of disputes and conflicts on a worldwide scale, largely due to certain religious leaders insisting that their (invariably based on long outdated, ancient viewpoints) outlook must be adhered to the letter. It shouldnt happen anywhere, UK included, in the 21st century, but sadly still does.

As mentioned above, everyone has the right to follow whatever religious teachings they chose, that said, the laws of the country any individual, religious or not, chose to live in, over-ride ancient teachings.

thats my two-bobs worth on the subject
 
Essexyellows said:
I find it rather interesting based on the fact that more than half of the populous have "no religion"... https://humanism.org.uk/2019/04/09/...ople-in-britain-jumps-by-46-new-figures-show/

Education should supersede any religious teaching IMHO.

I can see this getting far,far worse across communities in the UK.
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I think the issue in this case is a noisy minority at the more extreme end (ie. the Catholic woman looking to start a protest) of the religious scale.
 
Yes, you can't have people dictating what is taught in the schools their children attend on the basis of their own beliefs.

Once that principle is accepted, the whole thing would collapse - pupils being in some lessons but not others, different curriculum's for different children etc.
 
ZeroTheHero said:
Yes, you can't have people dictating what is taught in the schools their children attend on the basis of their own beliefs.

Once that principle is accepted, the whole thing would collapse - pupils being in some lessons but not others, different curriculum's for different children etc.
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Segregation has been around for many years. Having been raised as a Catholic I was taken out of the morning assembly as the C of E version of the Lords prayer differed to the Catholic. Never understood it as a child and later in life avowed myself of all religion.

I have, much like @Sarge, no problem with others following any belief they deem suitable as long as that is not to the detriment of others nor the root cause of segregation, discrimination or influence over any democratically elected government.

Maybe Religious Education should be just that, an education into the different beliefs based on fact and not the rabid preaching of those seeking to gain influence. (and that goes for all religion)

As for teaching children the ins and outs of LGBT etc. etc. (no pun intended) I have no idea. In my day my father produced pen and paper, sat me down and explained in very broad terms the differences between man and woman, showed me a couple of fairly graphic sketches and that was that. A flick through some top shelf mags produced a fairly positive testament to my having an interest in the ladies and that was all I needed to know.
 
When I was a kid we had some Amish/Mormon type kids in school who were not allowed to sit in sex education, parents could opt out, so it’s not a new thing to have kids out of those types of lessons. I suppose if over a half of the pupils are not going to a lesson though it’s a bit more of an issue than letting one or two sit in the library for an hour.

If you have a more liberal, open, permissive society that is always going to rub up against those who are strict in following certain religions, it will probably lead to more faith schools and those who are strict in their religious belief segregating themselves off from the mainstream.
 
I do think we need to be more mindful of religion as a society. While it is important that non-religious kids are taught religion in school, it is important that other issues, like LGBT ones are taught too all pupils to reflect the world we live in.

It is wholly naive of the religious parents/leaders to believe that their kids will never come across someone from the LGBT community (for example) and therefore not teaching it is ok or denying the reality. They are setting their kids up for a shock when the real world comes calling as they cannot control who they work with or live next to then. Some of those protesting parents would be uncomfortable at my current employer.

So respectful education of all kids is needed and to be made mandatory. But perhaps more thought and consideration is needed on how it is done to ensure the more extremely religious aren't given their moment to protest in the sun.
 
The protests in Birmingham are a big ding-dong over nothing. All it is about is showing books to 5 year old children where children might have two dads or two mums, and it's just reinforcing the fact that there is nothing wrong with this. No-one is 'forcing' children to be gay. It's merely promoting tolerance of people who are gay.

Forget about Christian/Muslim or whatever culture. The UK is a multicultural society, and people need to respect British culture, and part of that is tolerance for all people regardless of race, gender, religion, beliefs and sexual orientation. If people cannot accept that, then maybe they should leave and find a country more in line with their beliefs.
 
Foley said:
It was said on 5 Live yesterday that a poll suggested that 51% of muslims believed that gay marriage was wrong.
There seems to be a big difference between what people of some religions believe and the way that the law/ the political parties are going (far more liberalisation and tolerance).
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But for me, that;s the thing. It's not people's beliefs - if you are a devout Muslim/Christian who believes gay marriage is wrong, then don't go marrying someone of the same sex! It's trying to push your beliefs (which apparently nowadays people think are as valid as facts whatever the evidence!) on other people which is wrong. The law and politics have to (and ought to) take a wider view and form policy taking into account the lifestyles of all of the citizens - as long as that doesn't have too severe an effect on the rest of the citizens. In this case, of course, gay people either a) being gay or b) marrying each other has no effect at all on those whose invisible friend has told them it's wrong. And given that, the children of those people have a right to know how gay people are just another part of our society. After all, a number of them will be gay, no matter how much their parents might not like it! And anyone who thinks that being taught about something (sexuality, extremism, other religions, astronomy) might turn their children into a homosexual, a fascist/communist, a Bhuddist or a Martian needs to understand how education works, not be allowed to censor bits of the curriculum that make them uncomfortable.
 
[FRIENDLY FIRE]

ZeroTheHero said:
And anyone who thinks that being taught about something (sexuality, extremism, other religions, astronomy) might turn their children into a homosexual, a fascist/communist, a Bhuddist or a Martian needs to understand how education works, not be allowed to censor bits of the curriculum that make them uncomfortable.
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You are not John Stuart Mill and I claim my £5. ?

[/FRIENDLY FIRE]
 
And here we go again...... education or religious beliefs?

www.bbc.co.uk

Batley school protests: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'

Robert Jenrick defends the right of teachers to "appropriately" show images of the Prophet Muhammed.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

So the headmaster "apologises unreservedly"
The teacher is suspended.
The school is closed.

Because a teacher showed a cartoon of a mythical figure?

Was it only 6 years ago people were saying "Je suis Charlie" after the massacre in France?
 
Essexyellows said:
And here we go again...... education or religious beliefs?

www.bbc.co.uk

Batley school protests: Prophet Muhammad cartoon row 'hijacked'

Robert Jenrick defends the right of teachers to "appropriately" show images of the Prophet Muhammed.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

So the headmaster "apologises unreservedly"
The teacher is suspended.
The school is closed.

Because a teacher showed a cartoon of a mythical figure?

Was it only 6 years ago people were saying "Je suis Charlie" after the massacre in France?
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I'm not religious in the least but I try not to offend those who are if that offence had no other higher purpose. Life's too short.
 
QR said:
I'm not religious in the least but I try not to offend those who are if that offence had no other higher purpose. Life's too short.
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Ironically the lesson was about blasphemy so surely the children should have a broader educational range, to make them better people, than the narrowed ideology of religion?
Sadly the "religion of peace" often shows it`s true medieval dogma.
 
QR said:
I'm not religious in the least but I try not to offend those who are if that offence had no other higher purpose. Life's too short.
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Totally agree with you. Yes, we live in a democracy, and I accept the teacher concerned hasn't committed any race-hate offence. I also agree with Emmanuel Macron's approach that freedom of speech must be maintained provided it doesn't incite hatred.

However, we need to look at the bigger picture and ask ourselves - why do it? Why kick a massive hornet's nest just to create division where division didn't previously exist? We know form Charlie Hebdo and the murder of Samuel Paty, that this was never going to end well. I really don't know what he was trying to achieve?
 
boogaloo said:
Totally agree with you. Yes, we live in a democracy, and I accept the teacher concerned hasn't committed any race-hate offence. I also agree with Emmanuel Macron's approach that freedom of speech must be maintained provided it doesn't incite hatred.

However, we need to look at the bigger picture and ask ourselves - why do it? Why kick a massive hornet's nest just to create division where division didn't previously exist? We know form Charlie Hebdo and the murder of Samuel Paty, that this was never going to end well. I really don't know what he was trying to achieve?
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You said it better than I did. (y)
 
As a teacher he has to maintain a fair and disciplined approach. To not be aware of what harm he could be doing by showing a cartoon is a dereliction of care. He is an educator and should be used to presenting a researched and proper education to his pupils. He could very easily have sought information on the subject before making such a crass error of judgement.
Those of us who are not followers of Islam or believers may not understand what the fuss is about but, as a teacher, he has a duty of care towards his pupils. Sadly, in this instance, he has failed badly. Would it have been so difficult to inform himself before proceeding with his display? The demographics of the school alone should have tipped him off that it might not have been advised to stumble into a lesson with such a scant regard for the sensitivity of others. What on earth was he thinking?
 
Manorlounger said:
As a teacher he has to maintain a fair and disciplined approach. To not be aware of what harm he could be doing by showing a cartoon is a dereliction of care. He is an educator and should be used to presenting a researched and proper education to his pupils. He could very easily have sought information on the subject before making such a crass error of judgement.
Those of us who are not followers of Islam or believers may not understand what the fuss is about but, as a teacher, he has a duty of care towards his pupils. Sadly, in this instance, he has failed badly. Would it have been so difficult to inform himself before proceeding with his display? The demographics of the school alone should have tipped him off that it might not have been advised to stumble into a lesson with such a scant regard for the sensitivity of others. What on earth was he thinking?
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The lesson was about blasphemy so showing examples is part of the lesson?
Irrespective of the demographic the teacher has to have the freedom to teach a much broader world view than the myopic visions of "religion".
 
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