International Politics Donald Trump 🍊🇺🇸

Basham Wonderland said:
No but it seems like most people on this forum have, given how regularly it gets referenced.
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"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

It might be uncomfortable for some, but there are very clear parallels between the 1930's and today. The Great Depression, a rise in Fascism, Nationalism, Authoritarian regimes, marginalised communities, dehumanising minorities, state organised violence, and all opposition silenced.

Today is Holocaust Memorial Day and every year we hear people say "Never Again", but the world has turned a blind eye to numerous genocides since.

Unfortunately, all of the warning signs are there that we could be on the brink of another global conflict with a catastrophic impact on humanity.

So hopefully this history will continue to be referenced over and over again to remind people that evil happens when good people do nothing. But I guess making churlish comments could be just as powerful.
 
Scotchegg said:
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

It might be uncomfortable for some, but there are very clear parallels between the 1930's and today. The Great Depression, a rise in Fascism, Nationalism, Authoritarian regimes, marginalised communities, dehumanising minorities, state organised violence, and all opposition silenced.

Today is Holocaust Memorial Day and every year we hear people say "Never Again", but the world has turned a blind eye to numerous genocides since.

Unfortunately, all of the warning signs are there that we could be on the brink of another global conflict with a catastrophic impact on humanity.

So hopefully this history will continue to be referenced over and over again to remind people that evil happens when good people do nothing. But I guess making churlish comments could be just as powerful.
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I think people say "Germany in the 1930s" when they have very limited knowledge of history - thinking that somehow the 1930s was the PG/12A version of the Nazis, and that although menacing, it wasn't at the point of genocide yet.

When actually, if you do know your history, you'd know that comparing any part of the global west to 1930s Germany is an absolute insult to the Jews and disabled/gay people who actually had to live through the horror.

It's actually shameful to make the comparison.
 
Basham Wonderland said:
I think people say "Germany in the 1930s" when they have very limited knowledge of history - thinking that somehow the 1930s was the PG/12A version of the Nazis, and that although menacing, it wasn't at the point of genocide yet.

When actually, if you do know your history, you'd know that comparing any part of the global west to 1930s Germany is an absolute insult to the Jews and disabled/gay people who actually had to live through the horror.

It's actually shameful to make the comparison.
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I tend to agree with you that it does risk trivialising it when situations are constantly compared to 1930s Germany / people are called Nazis left right and centre.

I’m pretty sure that any Jews living in Germany back then would absolutely take your hand off to be in America now. The two situations are simply incomparable… Yes, what’s happening in America now is bad, but it’s trite to claim that it’s anywhere near as bad as what happened in Germany back then.
 
Basham Wonderland said:
I think people say "Germany in the 1930s" when they have very limited knowledge of history - thinking that somehow the 1930s was the PG/12A version of the Nazis, and that although menacing, it wasn't at the point of genocide yet.

When actually, if you do know your history, you'd know that comparing any part of the global west to 1930s Germany is an absolute insult to the Jews and disabled/gay people who actually had to live through the horror.

It's actually shameful to make the comparison.
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If we're looking at history, Hitler came to power at the beginning of 1933, and it was then that Jews were first targeted from a boycott of Jewish businesses in April of that year and the removal of Jews from positions of authority and teaching, to the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 that stripped Jews of German citizenship, through to the Night of the Broken Glass in 1938 and the horrors that followed.

So when people talk of 1930's Germany, it is showing the escalation of events of a number of years and in no way minimises the impact that millions of minorities suffered during this period.

I'm not saying that we will see a repeat of these horrors, but there are clear parallels with some of the language being used by some people as was seen during the early years of that decade. And the lesson should be to challenge that language before it is normalised and intensifies into something more.
 
Scotchegg said:
If we're looking at history, Hitler came to power at the beginning of 1933, and it was then that Jews were first targeted from a boycott of Jewish businesses in April of that year and the removal of Jews from positions of authority and teaching, to the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 that stripped Jews of German citizenship, through to the Night of the Broken Glass in 1938 and the horrors that followed.

So when people talk of 1930's Germany, it is showing the escalation of events of a number of years and in no way minimises the impact that millions of minorities suffered during this period.

I'm not saying that we will see a repeat of these horrors, but there are clear parallels with some of the language being used by some people as was seen during the early years of that decade. And the lesson should be to challenge that language before it is normalised and intensifies into something more.
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They were already putting thousands of people in concentration camps, sterilising them using radiation and surgery. They were doing eugenics on black people. They banned Jews from going to theaters, cinemas, or holiday resorts. They were banned from living or walking in certain sections of German cities.

The comparison is completely mental, disgusting, and minimises the horror of the time.
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
To be fair we don't know what they would do because they haven't done anything. They could use their policing skills however their political masters have ensured they dont. It would help everyone (except those that don't want a key Presidential election manifesto pledge of the popular vote winner to be actually implemented) if everyone just did their jobs. Or ICE bring about their own crowd control which I'm not sure how constitutional that would be or if they would have authorized powers like the police do in the states.
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That isn't true. They are policing protests, such as outside the hotel where the ICE Head honcho Bovino stayed last night and made arrests. And doing their normal duties as well.

What they aren't doing is helping ICE Agents, or the other Federal Agents involved, ride roughshod over people's civil rights.

Maybe ICE should focus on actually doing their job properly and deal with the Court cases/hearings for those they've already arrested. The acting ICE Director has been ordered into Court by a Federal Judge to explain why ICE have not followed a Court Order (one of plenty according to the article I read earlier) for an arrestee to have his bond hearing within 7 days or for him to be released. He was still in custody after the 7 days.
 
Basham Wonderland said:
They were already putting thousands of people in concentration camps, sterilising them using radiation and surgery. They were doing eugenics on black people. They banned Jews from going to theaters, cinemas, or holiday resorts. They were banned from living or walking in certain sections of German cities.

The comparison is completely mental, disgusting, and minimises the horror of the time.
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I think we're arguing the same point but missing one key area.

There was the dehumanising language, the restrictions on certain professions, the removal from towns and cities, the stripping of citizenship. This didn't just happen. There was an escalation to the horrors that then came, and no one intervened.

I'm not comparing anything today to those horrors, but we are seeing the wider use of dehumanising language (invasion, vermin, animals). We are seeing some restrictions on certain professions with the likes of Ant Middleton (London Mayoral candidate) going even further to say that no one of 2nd or 3rd generation of migrants should hold positions of power. We are seeing with recent events in the US that entire ethnic groups are being targeted for removal from cities. And on both sides of the Atlantic, we have leading politicians saying that people will be stripped of their citizenship regardless of how long they've been here or the contributions they've made.

None of this means that we will see the atrocities that followed, but equally highlighting that we have seen this happening before is far from disgusting and shouldn't be ignored.
 
tonyw said:
It's not that the ICE enforcement activities shouldn't occur in Democrat-led cities at all; the anger is because the Trump administration has disproportionately focused its enforcement actions on those areas - Minneapolis most of all. Minneapolis has an estimated 80-130k undocumented immigrants living there (so <1% of the national total) but that's the place that the Trump administration targeted for Operation Metro Surge, the (their words not mine) largest immigration enforcement operation ever carried out. A city that, not coincidentally, is home to two of the loudest anti-MAGA voices in the nation (Governor Tim Walz and Representative Ilhan Omar).

Meanwhile, ICE raids on agricultural communities have dropped to near (but not quite) zero. It's one of the worst-kept secrets that the US farming sector relies on undocumented labour, but ICE has stopped targeting those communities in the main because it was proving disruptive to the agriculture sector (who have traditionally been heavy Trump supporters) and contributing to price inflation. Much better to focus the disruption and the pain on blue cities to make their deportation quotas rather than places where Trump voters, and even more importantly big business interests, might be inconvenienced.

It's petty and its political, and it's not surprising that it's making people very angry.
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Fair enough i see your point. In that case the main argument seems to be that they should enforce immigration in other areas too which certainly seems reasonable. i also agree on US agriculture. UK agriculture (i'm in a rural community) also seems overly reliant on immigration which causes its own issues including exploitation from their employers which absolutely need clamping down on too. Including poor pay which leads to issues like when the local workers get their weekly shop visit to the local small town dropped of by bus. Where amazingly there is a shoplifting spike at the same time hence loads of the shops suddenly "shut for lunch".
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
Fair enough i see your point. In that case the main argument seems to be that they should enforce immigration in other areas too which certainly seems reasonable. i also agree on US agriculture. UK agriculture (i'm in a rural community) also seems overly reliant on immigration which causes its own issues including exploitation from their employers which absolutely need clamping down on too. Including poor pay which leads to issues like when the local workers get their weekly shop visit to the local small town dropped of by bus. Where amazingly there is a shoplifting spike at the same time hence loads of the shops suddenly "shut for lunch".
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So in essence, greedy exploitative people are the root of the problem. However as they're also big donors, they get left alone and we'll all just continue to treat the symptoms as opposed to the root cause and pretend that will make the required difference and satisfy the electorate😉
 
Sheik Djibouti said:
So in essence, greedy exploitative people are the root of the problem. However as they're also big donors, they get left alone and we'll all just continue to treat the symptoms as opposed to the root cause and pretend that will make the required difference and satisfy the electorate😉
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They are part a big part not the only part though. They definitely shouldn't be ignored and left to carry on.

See as with many things in life on this forum there is much we can agree on.
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
They are part a big part not the only part though. They definitely shouldn't be ignored and left to carry on.

See as with many things in life on this forum there is much we can agree on.
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Agreed🙂

But they are as close to a root cause as you will find. But nobody will do anything about it as they're simply worth too damn much money to those desperate for power...so instead we'll deflect to the easy targets and pretend that it's effective action🤷‍♂️
 
Marked Ox said:
Trump and his Administration being themselves:

www.bbc.co.uk

Trump removes video with racist clip depicting Obamas as apes

The White House defended the post at first, calling to "stop the fake outrage", as members of both parties condemned the video.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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A total disgrace.
Trump is almost trying to be more and more outrageous to get a response.
I am.hoping that any decent Republicans have the bottle to stand up against this nasty man.
The response at the winter Olympics opening ceremony shows what the rest of the world think of Trumps America. Republicans need to show that it isn't such a hate filled country as it currently appears.
 
chuckbert said:
I am lost on America. I have no idea why this (and the myriad other things) isn’t the end for Trump.
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Very simple really, when you say something shocking and bat it away, nobody is shocked by what else you say or do.

I would love our politicians to be a bit more straight talking, but preferably not with ever more outlandish lies.
 
Carpy said:
Very simple really, when you say something shocking and bat it away, nobody is shocked by what else you say or do.

I would love our politicians to be a bit more straight talking, but preferably not with ever more outlandish lies.
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But why in America. Am I naive to think that if any British serving politician let alone the PM did this it would be game over for them?
 
chuckbert said:
But why in America. Am I naive to think that if any British serving politician let alone the PM did this it would be game over for them?
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Politics being different in different countries is hardly a strange thing.

Trumps made his whole brand being outlandish and somewhat crazy, there's almost nothing he could do at this point where his supporter base would consider him to have 'gone too far'.

MAGA is pretty cult-like, and they fear the Democrats getting in power much more than they worry about Trump doing outlandish, weird or incorrect things.
 
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The wealthy and powerful in.the US appear to be protected more ( see all of the reaction to the Epstein files).
So whist, I believe that Starmer was never mentioned in the Epstein files, he could lose his job over a misjudgement.
Prince Andrew has rightly been hounded out of the royal family.

Meanwhile, Trump can manipulate things to the extent that he will not facd up to what may have gone on.
 
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Foley said:
A total disgrace.
Trump is almost trying to be more and more outrageous to get a response.
I am.hoping that any decent Republicans have the bottle to stand up against this nasty man.
The response at the winter Olympics opening ceremony shows what the rest of the world think of Trumps America. Republicans need to show that it isn't such a hate filled country as it currently appears.
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What happened?
 
Wallop said:
What happened?
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Surprised that you haven't seen the storm over this? Shown above by Marked Ox.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform, about the 2020 election being a hoax ( yes as the Republicans could lose in the mid terms,he is gearing people up to wonder whether he will have it stolen from him).

At the end of the post, there was a depiction of the 2 Obamas faces on.the bodies of apes.

Even many in the Republican party appear to think that this is pretty awful.

Trump from doubling down on this originally now is blaming a 'staffer' for this
 
Oh nothing much really. Just the US President going on a 3 hour social media binge in the middle of the night including sharing a video full of lies and slurs culminating in the portrayal of the Obamas as monkeys.
 
chuckbert said:
But why in America. Am I naive to think that if any British serving politician let alone the PM did this it would be game over for them?
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Maybe it's because Trump has engineered a cold Civil War in the US under everyone's noses whereby he and his supporters literally despises (roughly) the other half the population and therefore practically anything he says or does can be excused in the name of supporting the regime who they still believe will make America Great Again.

The only real chance to protest against that would be the mid terms in November, but the chance of them being free and fair is diminishing by the day, as it does in all Authoritarian Regimes.

And we're probably not all that far behind but for the saving grace that we've not yet handed the levers of government to the authoritarians.....but their apologists are already prepared to defend them to the hilt.
 
I remember that a few years ago Danny Baker was dismissed immediately by the BBC for unthinkingly posting something similar on the birth of Prince Harry & Meghan Markle’s baby.
 
Sheik Djibouti said:
Maybe it's because Trump has engineered a cold Civil War in the US under everyone's noses whereby he and his supporters literally despises (roughly) the other half the population and therefore practically anything he says or does can be excused in the name of supporting the regime who they still believe will make America Great Again.

The only real chance to protest against that would be the mid terms in November, but the chance of them being free and fair is diminishing by the day, as it does in all Authoritarian Regimes.

And we're probably not all that far behind but for the saving grace that we've not yet handed the levers of government to the authoritarians.....but their apologists are already prepared to defend them to the hilt.
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Yes I agree with this. Yet I can’t see a path to it in the UK. But the US has done it in about 9 or 10 years. My boy would be telling me it’s the fault of the Democrats for not getting their s**t together after Trump 1, and I find it hard to disagree. The Dems are just playing along with business-as-usual leaving oldskool geriatrics like Biden, Pelosi, Schumer in positions of power. The Dems should be the antidote and if they don’t step up bigly then disgraceful racist animations from the Whitehouse will be the least of their worries.
 
Foley said:
Surprised that you haven't seen the storm over this? Shown above by Marked Ox.

Trump posted on his Truth Social platform, about the 2020 election being a hoax ( yes as the Republicans could lose in the mid terms,he is gearing people up to wonder whether he will have it stolen from him).

At the end of the post, there was a depiction of the 2 Obamas faces on.the bodies of apes.

Even many in the Republican party appear to think that this is pretty awful.

Trump from doubling down on this originally now is blaming a 'staffer' for this
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Sorry - I meant what happened at the Winter Olympics opening ceremony.
 
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