International Politics Donald Trump 🍊🇺🇸

bazzer9461 said:
He was trying tomorrow y the female then he got pushed by an ICE officer then another prevented the woman getting involved before 4 ice officers hurled him to the floor think he got punched as well, then turned over and the gun was visible in his waistband in his back which was subsequently removed before some coward of an ICE fired a shot before shooting him a further 9 times….thats murder and with the video evidence supporting this account can’t see how the ICE agent can get away with this.
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And both had already been pepper sprayed by this point too.
 
bazzer9461 said:
He was trying tomorrow y the female then he got pushed by an ICE officer then another prevented the woman getting involved before 4 ice officers hurled him to the floor think he got punched as well, then turned over and the gun was visible in his waistband in his back which was subsequently removed before some coward of an ICE fired a shot before shooting him a further 9 times….thats murder and with the video evidence supporting this account can’t see how the ICE agent can get away with this.
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There is a video analysis out there that suggests the ICE agent removing the man`s gun discharged it accidentally, which led to the others thinking they were at risk so they used lethal force.

End of the day if they don`t get all wrapped up with the officials everyone goes home.
 
Essexyellows said:
There is a video analysis out there that suggests the ICE agent removing the man`s gun discharged it accidentally, which led to the others thinking they were at risk so they used lethal force.

End of the day if they don`t get all wrapped up with the officials everyone goes home.
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And the excuse for emptying the clip into the already disarmed and lifeless body is. ?

You could try to be less of a bell about this you know.
 
I'm sure that in the 80's, Essex was fully supportive of the police targetting football fans.

Any violence against fans would have been perfectly justified because some fans caused trouble so all were fair game.

After all, anyone wanting to watch football could just watch Match of the Day or The Big Match on ITV.

And you wouldn't want to provoke people already on edge?

If we had all stayed home and minded our own business none of it would have happened.

Of course, he might just be talking crap to try to justify a position that no one (even Trump) actually takes seriously anymore.

Ergo, he's a sad troll.

🤷‍♂️

#PlayingTheMan
 
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Scotchegg said:
I'm sure that in the 80's, Essex was fully supportive of the police targetting football fans.

Any violence against fans would have been perfectly justified because some fans caused trouble so all were fair game.

After all, anyone wanting to watch football could just watch Match of the Day or The Big Match on ITV.

And you wouldn't want to provoke people already on edge?

If we had all stayed home and minded our own business none of it would have happened.

Of course, he might just be talking crap to try to justify a position that no one (even Trump) actually takes seriously anymore.

Ergo, he's a sad troll.

🤷‍♂️
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Well he has repeatedly said he admires the Taliban, so.......
 
Essexyellows said:
There are about a million versions of it being analysed by "experts" frame by frame all feeding their particular narrative.

None of us were there, none of us have been in such situations with people with guns.

The bloke keeps out the way he can still film, be a witness and go home alive.

He made a choice, as did the ICE officers - choices have consequences.

Its really not that complicated.
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news.sky.com

'The normal rules of engagement have been thrown out - Alex Pretti was on his knees when first shot was fired'

There is no obvious evidence that Alex Pretti was intent on massacring a group of immigration agents, as the Department of Homeland Security is claiming.
news.sky.com news.sky.com

Have a read and watch the video when the Sky reporter is out in Minneapolis. Those ICE Agents aren't following due process including when they arrest a woman walking down the street (there is no way they could have even an administrative warrant to arrest her) and these people aren't in their face etc. Or what happened to a family sat in a car that got caught up in traffic from a protest (or the tweet about it afterwards) etc etc.

And of course, the Agents masked up etc, that is perfectly reasonable........

***Warning for anybody who doesn't want to see it: one of the videos is of the shooting but clearly marked***
 
Essexyellows said:
There is a video analysis out there that suggests the ICE agent removing the man`s gun discharged it accidentally, which led to the others thinking they were at risk so they used lethal force.

End of the day if they don`t get all wrapped up with the officials everyone goes home.
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Off course experts in their field which includes the use of firearms and when it was taken out that would have jumped out of the IVE agents hands the way he was holding it plus you can guarantee
If that had happened it would have been a frame by frame showing of the gun going off
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
Thanks for some good points. Im not american but looking as an outsider it seems that past presidents both dem and republican have failed to introduce the dream act or any legislation to legally change the status of these illegal/undocumented immigrants. Therefore as it currently stands the law is the law. The current president was elected on a mandate to sort out illegal/undocumented immigration which is his durisdiction as a federal power also in law. So either the police provide protection go federal employees doing their job. Or federal employees bring their own protection. Or you accept you cant make an omlet without breaking some eggs and have ICE doing their own disruptor management. I would hope the first is preferable but given the state wont fascilitate it and i dont know if there is a mechanisim for option 2 lawfully. Then regrettably option 3 is the only available one which is where we are today.

I do find it amazing a president who is actually enacting what he said he was going to do before election which people voted for in their droves is controversial and the states can frustrate it. Most people seem to complain about politicians not doing what they were elected to do.

That said stay legal dont go executing civillians and everyone just needs to do their jobs.
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"it seems that past presidents both dem and republican have failed to introduce the dream act or any legislation to legally change the status of these illegal/undocumented immigrants" - because the American economy depends on them, if they think they have inflation now, it would be much worse without them.

I think the main issue he is mainly doing it in certain cities/states and not others (its like where OCC have put LTN/bus gates). You then add in the behaviour of quite a number of the people brought in to do it - who are openly flouting many laws - then it is not a surprise people are paying attention.
 
Essexyellows said:
There are about a million versions of it being analysed by "experts" frame by frame all feeding their particular narrative.

None of us were there, none of us have been in such situations with people with guns.

The bloke keeps out the way he can still film, be a witness and go home alive.

He made a choice, as did the ICE officers - choices have consequences.

Its really not that complicated.
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You know things are bad when even the NRA are criticising the killing...
 
More rolling back from the administration, the US Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino, who said that it "looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement" is being removed from the state operations.
 
OUFCGav said:
More rolling back from the administration, the US Border Patrol Commander Gregory Bovino, who said that it "looks like a situation where an individual wanted to do maximum damage and massacre law enforcement" is being removed from the state operations.
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It's all very 1984 isn't it in the Trump administration - criticise activity (Mr Bovino for example) or not do El Presidente's bidding (Federal Reserve seniors for example) and it's off to the virtual gulag or court proceedings being brought against you.

Don't anyone think Nigel F wouldn't look to adopt the same approach if he got in.
 
Wallop said:
It's all very 1984 isn't it in the Trump administration - criticise activity (Mr Bovino for example) or not do El Presidente's bidding (Federal Reserve seniors for example) and it's off to the virtual gulag or court proceedings being brought against you.

Don't anyone think Nigel F wouldn't look to adopt the same approach if he got in.
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The Frankenstein Tory leader has not criticised Trump at all in anything.
This s**t is coming our way.
 
tonyw said:
OK, but you have to remember that there's barely a single city in the entire nation that voted for Trump. Take a look at the voting map of Texas if you don't believe me - there's a big blue blob around Houston, and even bigger one around Austin, others in San Antonio and Dallas......and the rest of the state is a deep shade of red.

So even if you agree with the statement that the majority of Americans voted for the mass deportation of any illegal immigrant that ICE could find without due process (debatable in itself), the fact that enforcement efforts have been focused on big cities that very clearly did not vote for it is, unsurprisingly, pissing people off.
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Thanks again i see your point however whilst a state is a member of the united states there are federal and state matters. Parts of the US that didn't vote for them are still under US laws still under the same president.

Things have to be lawful I accept that. 100% Some parts of the ICE appear to not be so and again i accept that.

However given the highest concentration of undocumented/illegal immigrants exist in these sanctury cities (because they feel safest) then you would expect ice enforcement to occur there mostly. If it was rural Alabama then i would expect the same there. You cant opt out of the consequences of a presidency voted by all of the electorate, Trump won the popular vote and the electoral system vote. In the UK the electoral map is largely blue because country constituents vote conservative. It didn't stop labour introducing countryside legislation like banning fox hunting and inheritance tax on farms. It's a price we pay for living in a political union.

As i have said people need to do their job ICE included so no attacking hotels or disrupting them.
ICE agents need to act within the law. So no shooting civilians that aren't a threat.
And get on with enacting a key election pledge of the President that won the popular vote.
 
Sheik Djibouti said:
Why have they refused to provide assistance?
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because of the Trust acts although Los Angeles Police Department's Special Order 40 was a 1979 act that limited involvement between the police and ICE agents and in 1985 San Francisco passed the "City of Refuge" resolution, prohibiting city funds from assisting federal immigration enforcement.

The first modern Trust act was Connecticut in 2013 under Obama and largely states and cities have been incorporating them since then. Minneapolis implemented theirs in 2019 so at the end of the last Trump administration
 
And of course in the long run the number of deportations is quite low compared to the 1990's and 2000's Biden deported some under Title 42 but that was all covid control hence there was none by 2024. thanks again to @tonyw who has inspired me to read around what is a fascinating subject something both the media from the left right mainstream and alternative often fail to talk around the whole subject. It certainly isn't as black and white as people on either side make it. As nothing ever is in this partisan world we live in currently.
 
OUFCGav said:
You know things are bad when even the NRA are criticising the killing...
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The NRA's main goal is to support the 2nd amendment, and ensure that any American is able to carry a gun as much as possible.

So it's not surprising that they didn't love the "If you carry a gun to a protest, you might get shot by law enforcement" rhetoric. It's directly against what they stand for, which is freedom for all to bear arms.

And I'm sure this is the main reason why Trump has dialed back on this one......it's not because he's any more a fan of the truth than he ever was, nor because he wants to soften his stance on ICE protestors. It's because his buddies in the NRA are leaning on him.
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
because of the Trust acts although Los Angeles Police Department's Special Order 40 was a 1979 act that limited involvement between the police and ICE agents and in 1985 San Francisco passed the "City of Refuge" resolution, prohibiting city funds from assisting federal immigration enforcement.

The first modern Trust act was Connecticut in 2013 under Obama and largely states and cities have been incorporating them since then. Minneapolis implemented theirs in 2019 so at the end of the last Trump administration
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So when you say refused, you mean prohibited from by state law?
 
Sheik Djibouti said:
So when you say refused, you mean prohibited from by state law?
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Yes the states choose to not participate then they must accept the consequences which is ICE do the dirty work on their behalf. Just like the federal government can choose to deny state funding to those states that don't help federal employees.

It all works better if the States do their job and the federal employees do their jobs, without these ridiculous states and cities trying to make things difficult then crying when it goes wrong like it really is currently. what is happening is not acceptable. Both sides need to work together to deport those that are not legally there (which should be pretty binary to work out).
 
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Matty Greens Left Boot said:
Yes the states choose to not participate then they must accept the consequences which is ICE do the dirty work on their behalf. Just like the federal government can choose to deny state funding to those states that don't help federal employees.

It all works better if the States do their job and the federal employees do their jobs, without these ridiculous states and cities trying to make things difficult then crying when it goes wrong like it really is currently. what is happening is not acceptable both sides need to work together to deport those that are not legally there (which should be pretty binary to work out).
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I think that is an insult to State Police by saying they would act in the same way as ICE.

ICE aren't doing the job of the Police at all. Police officers have (rightly) been convicted and gone to jail for doing less than ICE are currently doing in broad daylight. They are acting as authoritarian thugs with utter impunity, protected by a shameful government and they will be held to account in the fullness of time.
 
tonyw said:
Aye, spent a bit of time in San Diego when I was a kid, went to my first Chargers game when I was 10 and have been a huge fan ever since.

That's actually longer than I've been a yellow!
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Awesome! Been a fan since they had Natrone Means. Love the Tar Heels and love him, and been a fan since. Not a lot of fellow Bolts fans here in NC but that's cool haha.
 
Cartman said:
Awesome! Been a fan since they had Natrone Means. Love the Tar Heels and love him, and been a fan since. Not a lot of fellow Bolts fans here in NC but that's cool haha.
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Many happy memories of watching the Natrone Bomb pound us to a Superbowl in 94......less happy memories of successfully lobbying my parents as a 15 year old to stay up to 3am on a school night to watch the game, just to see them get absolutely obliterated by one of the greatest teams of all time!

There's not a lot of Bolts fans in the middle of NJ either, but did meet two others, and the three of us tend to meet up for the big games......
 
Sheik Djibouti said:
I think that is an insult to State Police by saying they would act in the same way as ICE.

ICE aren't doing the job of the Police at all. Police officers have (rightly) been convicted and gone to jail for doing less than ICE are currently doing in broad daylight. They are acting as authoritarian thugs with utter impunity, protected by a shameful government and they will be held to account in the fullness of time.
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To be fair we don't know what they would do because they haven't done anything. They could use their policing skills however their political masters have ensured they dont. It would help everyone (except those that don't want a key Presidential election manifesto pledge of the popular vote winner to be actually implemented) if everyone just did their jobs. Or ICE bring about their own crowd control which I'm not sure how constitutional that would be or if they would have authorized powers like the police do in the states.
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
Thanks again i see your point however whilst a state is a member of the united states there are federal and state matters. Parts of the US that didn't vote for them are still under US laws still under the same president.

Things have to be lawful I accept that. 100% Some parts of the ICE appear to not be so and again i accept that.

However given the highest concentration of undocumented/illegal immigrants exist in these sanctury cities (because they feel safest) then you would expect ice enforcement to occur there mostly. If it was rural Alabama then i would expect the same there. You cant opt out of the consequences of a presidency voted by all of the electorate, Trump won the popular vote and the electoral system vote. In the UK the electoral map is largely blue because country constituents vote conservative. It didn't stop labour introducing countryside legislation like banning fox hunting and inheritance tax on farms. It's a price we pay for living in a political union.
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It's not that the ICE enforcement activities shouldn't occur in Democrat-led cities at all; the anger is because the Trump administration has disproportionately focused its enforcement actions on those areas - Minneapolis most of all. Minneapolis has an estimated 80-130k undocumented immigrants living there (so <1% of the national total) but that's the place that the Trump administration targeted for Operation Metro Surge, the (their words not mine) largest immigration enforcement operation ever carried out. A city that, not coincidentally, is home to two of the loudest anti-MAGA voices in the nation (Governor Tim Walz and Representative Ilhan Omar).

Meanwhile, ICE raids on agricultural communities have dropped to near (but not quite) zero. It's one of the worst-kept secrets that the US farming sector relies on undocumented labour, but ICE has stopped targeting those communities in the main because it was proving disruptive to the agriculture sector (who have traditionally been heavy Trump supporters) and contributing to price inflation. Much better to focus the disruption and the pain on blue cities to make their deportation quotas rather than places where Trump voters, and even more importantly big business interests, might be inconvenienced.

It's petty and its political, and it's not surprising that it's making people very angry.
 
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