International Politics Donald Trump 🍊🇺🇸

Chris on a Bike said:
Incredible! He didn't 'f**k around' with the gun, it was legally held and secured in a holster - he didn't have it in his hand and he certainly didn't threaten anyone with it. It was taken from him by someone who ran off with it before he was shot numerous times at point blank range by government representatives who were acting outside the law. His gun played no part in why he got shot and he wasn't 'f*****g around'.
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Carry a gun and you are by my definition “f*****g around”’ as in either you or someone else is going to find out as to if that gun or another gets fired. So a deadly outcome.
 
Essexyellows said:
If he had stayed at home, minding his own business he would still be alive.
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I have to take issue with this, while I agree you shouldn't be actively stopping law enforcement from doing their job, you have every right to be there and voicing (peacefully) your displeasure at it without fear of being killed.

If we all just turned a blind eye to anything and everything the government does, we'd be fucked.
 
Scotchegg said:
Here's the moron as predicted
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Nice to see you lowered yourself to the default of playing the man.
Time to remind you you are not at work now Mr Mackay. :rolleyes:
Law enforcement over there is not as cosy as your job.
America has more guns than people.
Good people have guns.
Bad people have guns.
The Police/ICE etc have guns.
Hostile atmosphere of "observers" trying to obstruct legal work.
People on edge.
Guns being waved about.
Ergo people get shot.

You seriously think those folk went to work thinking "I`ll execute someone today"?

Or do you think they get into a situation they don`t want to be in, a sequence of events occured and they responded badly?
 
MarkG said:
Carry a gun and you are by my definition “f*****g around”’ as in either you or someone else is going to find out as to if that gun or another gets fired. So a deadly outcome.
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Lacking understanding and compassion.

I lived in the States for a bit. I have friends who would be the last people you'd expect to own a gun, now owning guns. When nearly half of all households now own a gun in the US, you can feel pretty exposed if you don't have one.

Like Alex Pretti, I'm sure they have no intention of ever using it. We're lucky we live in a society where we don't have to feel the need to arm ourselves reluctantly.
 
Essexyellows said:
Nice to see you lowered yourself to the default of playing the man.
Time to remind you you are not at work now Mr Mackay. :rolleyes:
Law enforcement over there is not as cosy as your job.
America has more guns than people.
Good people have guns.
Bad people have guns.
The Police/ICE etc have guns.
Hostile atmosphere of "observers" trying to obstruct legal work.
People on edge.
Guns being waved about.
Ergo people get shot.

You seriously think those folk went to work thinking "I`ll execute someone today"?

Or do you think they get into a situation they don`t want to be in, a sequence of events occured and they responded badly?
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His gun wasn't being 'waved around'. He was filming with a mobile phone which he is legally allowed to do.

ICE have been riding roughshod over constitutional rights. Saw a video of an ICE Agent threatening to arrest a homeowner for obstruction as they were using her lawn to set up to go down the road without her permission. She demanded they get off unless they had a warrant to enter her property so she was threatened with arrest by the ICE Agent. They carried on ignoring the law.
 
Essexyellows said:
Nice to see you lowered yourself to the default of playing the man.
Time to remind you you are not at work now Mr Mackay. :rolleyes:
Law enforcement over there is not as cosy as your job.
America has more guns than people.
Good people have guns.
Bad people have guns.
The Police/ICE etc have guns.
Hostile atmosphere of "observers" trying to obstruct legal work.
People on edge.
Guns being waved about.
Ergo people get shot.

You seriously think those folk went to work thinking "I`ll execute someone today"?

Or do you think they get into a situation they don`t want to be in, a sequence of events occured and they responded badly?
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You always cry about playing the man yet constantly reference me and my job.

I have no idea what anyone was thinking before the incident, neither do you. What I do know is what I can see with my own eyes, and that was the unlawful killing of an unarmed, restrained, US citizen.

You choose to see something entirely different. That says far more about you.
 
MarkG said:
He had a gun on him. f**k around and find out. Maybe if he didn’t have a gun he’d be alive today. But hey 2nd amendment or whatever.
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The problem is a video has appeared showing an ICE agent taking the gun from the back of the person who was then shot 9 times…..that’s an execution or assassination or plain murder the spokesman for Homeland to hang her head in shame saying the man posed a threat to the ICE agents and the public after the gun had been retrieved of which the chap was legally allowed to carry.
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
To be honest i dont understand why the states are interfering with federal matter such as immigration enforcement. They aren't a matter for the state of Minnesota and surely most people is in favour of deporting illegal immigrants. I mean i dont know anyone who when pointed with the question "someone is here illegally should they be deported?" would answer no. As somebody pointed out last week to me Obama deported nearly the same number over his Presidency yet the left weren't out there disrupting deportations when he was doing it. Biden literally did nothing so one would expect Trump to have to increase deportations to make up for the shortfall under the previous administrations.
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Then you can't have spent a lot of time in a big US city.

Illegal immigration in the US is not like Britain. It's not tens of thousands of people arriving per year and then being managed (or quite often mismanaged). There are likely approaching 15 million undocumented immigrants in the US, and by most estimates, ~80% have been here for more than a decade. They have built their lives here, they work, they are part of communities. But, there is no pathway for them to become citizens or at least legal residents. They have been trying to pass the Dream Act for about a quarter century to provide a pathway for at least the 2 million undocumented immigrants that came to the US as children to stay, but it's never gotten over the line (and despite Trump occasionally giving it lip service, his administration has focused on enforcement not rewriting the legal code).

That's why you might sometimes hear about sanctuary cities - these are US cities (and there's lots of them, including NY, LA and Chicago) that have decided to limit cooperation with ICE to protect undocumented immigrants from deportation. This practice started in the 1980s, and still goes on today.

What the Obama administration did was essentially twofold - deport recent arrivals as and when they are identified. And deport any undocumented immigrant that was convicted of a crime. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this added up to about 3 million in his presidency, and in general, it was a sensible, pragmatic, humane policy. Some far leftists didn't like it, but most people were comfortable with it.

What the Trump administration has decided to do is send ICE into a series of major US cities, and arrest anyone and everyone they can find, regardless of how long they've been in the country, their age, family status, job, lack of criminal record etc. etc. And they're doing it without following the general principles of due process. They're also spending a ton of money on it (~$80 billion was allocated to increased ICE enforcement in the 'One Big, Beautiful Bill).


Which is a long way of saying that if you asked the vast majority of Democrats and a lot of centrists (probably quite a few traditional Republicans too.....but not the MAGA folks) in the US the question "someone is here illegally, should they be deported?", the answer you would get is "It depends".
 
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tonyw said:
Then you can't have spent a lot of time in a big US city.

Illegal immigration in the US is not like Britain. It's not tens of thousands of people arriving per year and then being managed (or quite often mismanaged). There are likely approaching 15 million undocumented immigrants in the US, and by most estimates, ~80% have been here for more than a decade. They have built their lives here, they work, they are part of communities. But, there is no pathway for them to become citizens or at least legal residents. They have been trying to pass the Dream Act for about a quarter century to provide a pathway for at least the 2 million undocumented immigrants that came to the US as children to stay, but it's never gotten over the line (and despite Trump occasionally giving it lip service, his administration has focused on enforcement not rewriting the legal code).

That's why you might sometimes hear about sanctuary cities - these are US cities (and there's lots of them, including NY, LA and Chicago) that have decided to limit cooperation with ICE to protect undocumented immigrants from deportation. This practice started in the 1980s, and still goes on today.

What the Obama administration did was essentially twofold - deport recent arrivals as and when they are identified. And deport any undocumented immigrant that was convicted of a crime. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, this added up to about 3 million in his presidency, and in general, it was a sensible, pragmatic, humane policy. Some far leftists didn't like it, but most people were comfortable with it.

What the Trump administration has decided to do is send ICE into a series of major US cities, and arrest anyone and everyone they can find, regardless of how long they've been in the country, their age, family status, job, lack of criminal record etc. etc. And they're doing it without following the general principles of due process. They're also spending a ton of money on it (~$80 billion was allocated to increased ICE enforcement in the 'One Big, Beautiful Bill).


Which is a long way of saying that if you asked the vast majority of Democrats and a lot of centrists (probably quite a few traditional Republicans too.....but not the MAGA folks) in the US the question "someone is here illegally, should they be deported?", the answer you would get is "It depends".
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Fantastic post! Also, nice to see another Bolts fan here haha(Per your avatar).
 
bazzer9461 said:
The problem is a video has appeared showing an ICE agent taking the gun from the back of the person who was then shot 9 times…..that’s an execution or assassination or plain murder the spokesman for Homeland to hang her head in shame saying the man posed a threat to the ICE agents and the public after the gun had been retrieved of which the chap was legally allowed to carry.
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The video is clear as day - it’s cold-blooded murder, followed by fictitious justification. Again.
 
tonyw said:
That's why you might sometimes hear about sanctuary cities - these are US cities (and there's lots of them, including NY, LA and Chicago) that have decided to limit cooperation with ICE to protect undocumented immigrants from deportation. This practice started in the 1980s, and still goes on today.
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Thanks for some good points. Im not american but looking as an outsider it seems that past presidents both dem and republican have failed to introduce the dream act or any legislation to legally change the status of these illegal/undocumented immigrants. Therefore as it currently stands the law is the law. The current president was elected on a mandate to sort out illegal/undocumented immigration which is his durisdiction as a federal power also in law. So either the police provide protection go federal employees doing their job. Or federal employees bring their own protection. Or you accept you cant make an omlet without breaking some eggs and have ICE doing their own disruptor management. I would hope the first is preferable but given the state wont fascilitate it and i dont know if there is a mechanisim for option 2 lawfully. Then regrettably option 3 is the only available one which is where we are today.

I do find it amazing a president who is actually enacting what he said he was going to do before election which people voted for in their droves is controversial and the states can frustrate it. Most people seem to complain about politicians not doing what they were elected to do.

That said stay legal dont go executing civillians and everyone just needs to do their jobs.
 
Seems the chap was carrying 51 rounds............. for "self defence" make of that what you will.

Here is a handy survival guide for "protestors/observers"........

Most phone cameras etc have pretty good zoom. Stay at a safe distance.
Don`t get "hands on" with law enforcement.
Do as you are told and don`t provoke people who are already on edge.
Go home alive.

Easy really. 🤷‍♂️
 
Essexyellows said:
Seems the chap was carrying 51 rounds............. for "self defence" make of that what you will.

Here is a handy survival guide for "protestors/observers"........

Most phone cameras etc have pretty good zoom. Stay at a safe distance.
Don`t get "hands on" with law enforcement.
Do as you are told and don`t provoke people who are already on edge.
Go home alive.

Easy really. 🤷‍♂️
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Have you seen any of the footage from this incident?
 
Matty Greens Left Boot said:
I do find it amazing a president who is actually enacting what he said he was going to do before election which people voted for in their droves is controversial and the states can frustrate it. Most people seem to complain about politicians not doing what they were elected to do.
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OK, but you have to remember that there's barely a single city in the entire nation that voted for Trump. Take a look at the voting map of Texas if you don't believe me - there's a big blue blob around Houston, and even bigger one around Austin, others in San Antonio and Dallas......and the rest of the state is a deep shade of red.

So even if you agree with the statement that the majority of Americans voted for the mass deportation of any illegal immigrant that ICE could find without due process (debatable in itself), the fact that enforcement efforts have been focused on big cities that very clearly did not vote for it is, unsurprisingly, pissing people off.

It would be as if a party won the UK general election without winning a single London MP, with a promise to enact a controversial policy that had majority support but was going to cause a certain level of disruption.......and then they decided to implement it in London first and foremost. It would, rightly, be viewed as vindictive and tyrannical. A pragmatic leader would likely start with regions that supported the policy; a fair leader would at the very least enforce immigration laws proportionally across the country. Trump is neither.

Thus it is in Minneapolis. They don't want ICE in their city, carting off their long-time neighbours, colleagues and friends to spend some uncertain amount of time in a cell, and then be whisked off to some country they haven't even been to in decades. They didn't vote for it (70% of residents in the biggest county voted for Kamala). And yet Trump's administration has decided to make them the epicenter for their enforcement efforts. It's not surprising that they want to protest.....and that's what they've been doing, non-violently. And whilst I will never be on board with American gun laws however long I'm here......Minnesota gun laws do allow you to carry a concealed weapon in public, so the victim here broke no laws.

In such circumstances, it is the duty of law enforcement - ICE themselves in this instance - to respond proportionately to threats. From everything I've read about this case, they were way out of line here, and they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
 
Essexyellows said:
Seems the chap was carrying 51 rounds............. for "self defence" make of that what you will.

Here is a handy survival guide for "protestors/observers"........

Most phone cameras etc have pretty good zoom. Stay at a safe distance.
Don`t get "hands on" with law enforcement.
Do as you are told and don`t provoke people who are already on edge.
Go home alive.

Easy really. 🤷‍♂️
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That is so, so weak for trying to justify law enforcement shooting somebody who is observing.

And his gun was not out so how many rounds he had is irrelevant. The videos and analysis of them indicate the gun was taken off him from his waistband/pocket, not from his hands whilst he had multiple Federal Agents are on top of him. He was then shot a lot of times after being disarmed.
 
Essexyellows said:
Seems the chap was carrying 51 rounds............. for "self defence" make of that what you will.

Here is a handy survival guide for "protestors/observers"........

Most phone cameras etc have pretty good zoom. Stay at a safe distance.
Don`t get "hands on" with law enforcement.
Do as you are told and don`t provoke people who are already on edge.
Go home alive.

Easy really. 🤷‍♂️
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Does that include the 10 he got murdered with..
 
Scotchegg said:
Have you seen any of the footage from this incident?
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You mean where an armed man is getting "hands on" with said law enforcement to "rescue" another protestor/observer?

If they both keep out the way the end result is completely different.

A chain of events and bad choices bring consequences on both sides.
 
Essexyellows said:
You mean where an armed man is getting "hands on" with said law enforcement to "rescue" another protestor/observer?

If they both keep out the way the end result is completely different.

A chain of events and bad choices bring consequences on both sides.
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There would be more sympathy for this view if they were police. These are not police, these are unaccountable masked ICE officers - whom the public have not trust in. So if you see them take your friend/relative you don’t trust that due process and care will take place which is why people are recording and documenting - if no one recorded the shooting itself we have seen what the completely false narrative would have been.
I don’t see how anyone observing what is happening in the states can be comfortable with what is going on.
 
Essexyellows said:
You mean where an armed man is getting "hands on" with said law enforcement to "rescue" another protestor/observer?

If they both keep out the way the end result is completely different.

A chain of events and bad choices bring consequences on both sides.
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So you haven't seen it then!

Even Trump is rowing back on this and yet you blindly continue to present a narrative that every can clearly see is false.
 
Scotchegg said:
So you haven't seen it then!

Even Trump is rowing back on this and yet you blindly continue to present a narrative that every can clearly see is false.
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Just Essex doing Essex things...as per.

Most on here have lost count of the times he's been wrong about stuff, but he sticks to his position as he thinks it makes him look authoritative and/or for fear of "looking weak" I guess.

Oh the irony 🤣

Oh no....did I "play the man"?? 😢
 
Essexyellows said:
You mean where an armed man is getting "hands on" with said law enforcement to "rescue" another protestor/observer?

If they both keep out the way the end result is completely different.

A chain of events and bad choices bring consequences on both sides.
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He was trying tomorrow y the female then he got pushed by an ICE officer then another prevented the woman getting involved before 4 ice officers hurled him to the floor think he got punched as well, then turned over and the gun was visible in his waistband in his back which was subsequently removed before some coward of an ICE fired a shot before shooting him a further 9 times….thats murder and with the video evidence supporting this account can’t see how the ICE agent can get away with this.
 
Scotchegg said:
So you haven't seen it then!

Even Trump is rowing back on this and yet you blindly continue to present a narrative that every can clearly see is false.
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There are about a million versions of it being analysed by "experts" frame by frame all feeding their particular narrative.

None of us were there, none of us have been in such situations with people with guns.

The bloke keeps out the way he can still film, be a witness and go home alive.

He made a choice, as did the ICE officers - choices have consequences.

Its really not that complicated.
 
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