Data bits

Shosho

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Fancy joining the ‘debate’ at the back of the East Stand about whether we should “leave a man up” when defending our own corners?

There’s an old boy up there who sounds like he’s going to have a nervous breakdown four or five times a game as we keep everyone back!
Ha an interesting one. To caveat, I’m not a coach in any way so can only make an educated guess...

I assume reasoning for being all men back is that you have a surplus when defending. You can man mark along with a free man to mop up...from memory a decent example being vs Burton. They always had a spare man just attacking the corner.

Leaving a man up...hoe many times does it get cleared? How many times would a single player get something out of two strikers (assume they wouldn’t leave 1v1).

If you were going for it, you would leave several players up to fully play havoc with the attacking teams structure. 2 players up would probably equal 3 players having to defend.

Guess it depends on the manager...MApp used to leave men up? Wonder if there’s other teams that leave men up and the result it has....I’ve nicely sat on the fence 😂
 

ttg17

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A very quick bit based on the weekend:

View attachment 1165

Firstly, we created nothing until a Dickie header around 28mins. Once Graham scored, we clearly shut up shop until around 70mins. Once Blackpool went chasing we started to gain a few chances on the break.

Blackpool clearly felt we were weak from crosses, making 24 in the match...however we all know effective it is crossing as a strategy ;).

As an aside, some of our best chances are coming from set pieces. Nelson/Dickie/Ruffels all threats...however we should be converting more tha we are. I had a little look into some set pieces as I think this is an area that if we batten down the hatches and become less expansive (until we are at the 50 point mark or so) we could exploit....just like Graham at the weekend.

I found the below:

"The ability for a small market team to replicate the same goal output for the price of an effective set-piece strategy is a clear market inefficiency that can be exploited. Therefore, any new method that can help teams exploit this inefficiency would be a key advantage."

Essentially, if you could develop a set piece strategy that yielded 15 goals a season....the expectation of a a striker...it would be considerably cheaper. As KR goes on about the cost of strikers, everyone looking for that top main striker that can do it all...how about developing a set piece strategy that could produce the same results?

A few points:
  • you are more likely to score from a set piece than open play
  • more likely to score from in-swinging corners
  • more likely to score from a flick on from a corner than directly
  • in-swinging corners create 18.61% of leading to shot compared to 20.85 on out-swinging corners
  • 10.81% chance of scoring off an in-swinging corner compared to 6.46% out-swinging
Therefore, it is tougher to take a shot from an in-swinging corner, however if you do, you are more likely to score.

You can go big on the set piece set up...blocking the keeper, players making near post runs, but fundamentally, you want inswinging corners that allow shots from between the penalty spot and six yard box. Looking towards this we have decent delivery from Graham and Brannagan, however we lack left footed quality on the ball...one of Garbutt's assets.

Anyway, a few thoughts written as to how we can improve
This is quality content
 

CheltenhamYellow

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Why don’t we have different routines for set pieces? Why are we so predictable? You often hear “that one’s straight from the training ground” on televised matches. Do WE actually practise them (apart from individual efforts/shooting) in training?
 

PottersRightBoot

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I don’t agree. Set pieces have improved from last season. I’d actually argue that one of the best free kick/corner takers at the club - Garbutt - never plays. Watch our corners and there’s plenty of movement. I bet other l1 sides rate us as quite tasty on set pieces. Ask Blackpool for example.

Fascinating stats Shosho. How does Eastwood compare as a shot stopper with other keepers . He’s great at collecting crosses but to my eyes always a bit vulnerable to 20/25 yard potshots ..
 

Foley

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Why don’t we have different routines for set pieces? Why are we so predictable? You often hear “that one’s straight from the training ground” on televised matches. Do WE actually practise them (apart from individual efforts/shooting) in training?
I can remember a Ruffels goal this season bring described as that's straight from the training ground plus an explanation of how much effort is put in on the training ground.
Holmes and Graham have scored directly from free kicks.
 

Shosho

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Why don’t we have different routines for set pieces? Why are we so predictable? You often hear “that one’s straight from the training ground” on televised matches. Do WE actually practise them (apart from individual efforts/shooting) in training?
Whilst we have improved in our set up we havent become too prolific from set pieces.

The reality is most teams dont spend much time on set pieces...i read some teams spend 15mins a week (i think i remember that correctly, will try to find the article!).

This further highlights the edge you can gain
 

ttg17

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Is there any data on the relative success of short corners? They absolutely do my head in and it would be nice to have some data backing up that they’re objectively relatively less successful than ‘normal’ corners.

That said, I feel like the data is perhaps less insightful than it first appears because of the value found in variety. Maybe set piece routines should be seen a bit like a bowling attack in cricket - hit the opposition with a few balls you know won’t yield results, lay the trap, and then angle it into the pads (/ inswinger into the 6 yard box) on the 6th ball for a higher likelihood of results.
 

MJB

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Ha an interesting one. To caveat, I’m not a coach in any way so can only make an educated guess...

I assume reasoning for being all men back is that you have a surplus when defending. You can man mark along with a free man to mop up...from memory a decent example being vs Burton. They always had a spare man just attacking the corner.

Leaving a man up...hoe many times does it get cleared? How many times would a single player get something out of two strikers (assume they wouldn’t leave 1v1).

If you were going for it, you would leave several players up to fully play havoc with the attacking teams structure. 2 players up would probably equal 3 players having to defend.

Guess it depends on the manager...MApp used to leave men up? Wonder if there’s other teams that leave men up and the result it has....I’ve nicely sat on the fence
Ha. Was only asking in jest really. Just find it funny that a certain someone at the ground gets so apoplectic each game and is 100% convinced he’s right. I happen to disagree with him but it’s hilarious hearing him get his kickers in a twist every other weekend!
 

Foley

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ljs

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Ha. Was only asking in jest really. Just find it funny that a certain someone at the ground gets so apoplectic each game and is 100% convinced he’s right. I happen to disagree with him but it’s hilarious hearing him get his kickers in a twist every other weekend!
I would agree that having all players back at a corner probably means you concede less from the actual corner. My issue with it is that even when the corner is cleared, is that the ball just comes straight back in for another attack as there is very little chance of our players getting hold of the ball.

The interesting and more relevant stat would be of goals conceded from corners and the following couple of minutes play in both scenarios.
 
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SteMerritt

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Ha. Was only asking in jest really. Just find it funny that a certain someone at the ground gets so apoplectic each game and is 100% convinced he’s right. I happen to disagree with him but it’s hilarious hearing him get his kickers in a twist every other weekend!
Ramon Diaz went on the theory that if you leave 2 up, the attacking team would leave 3 back. He then thought that he'd leave 4 up when defending corners, the looks on opposition players when we did it, looking round to their benches wondering what to do 😂. I don't remember us either scoring on the break or conceding more from corners when we did it however. Bloody loved that period of our history. 😁
 

Sarge

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Ramon Diaz went on the theory that if you leave 2 up, the attacking team would leave 3 back. He then thought that he'd leave 4 up when defending corners, the looks on opposition players when we did it, looking round to their benches wondering what to do 😂. I don't remember us either scoring on the break or conceding more from corners when we did it however. Bloody loved that period of our history. 😁
ditto that ...never a dull moment under Diaz ;)
 

Shosho

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Is there any data on the relative success of short corners? They absolutely do my head in and it would be nice to have some data backing up that they’re objectively relatively less successful than ‘normal’ corners.

That said, I feel like the data is perhaps less insightful than it first appears because of the value found in variety. Maybe set piece routines should be seen a bit like a bowling attack in cricket - hit the opposition with a few balls you know won’t yield results, lay the trap, and then angle it into the pads (/ inswinger into the 6 yard box) on the 6th ball for a higher likelihood of results.
Have just watched through a range of set pieces and we certainly appear to have worked on a fair number! Not sure if they are specific to the teams we play or just a repertoire we’ve built up.

Most involve a run (normally from Whyte or Henry) to/beyond the near post before the cross is hit...to pull defensive players out of the 6 yard area.

I think the corners most get annoyed with is when we play short then fail to deliver...which I haven’t seen too much under KR.
 

Teddydee1980

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Why don’t we have different routines for set pieces? Why are we so predictable? You often hear “that one’s straight from the training ground” on televised matches. Do WE actually practise them (apart from individual efforts/shooting) in training?
I can confirm that we do have routines for set pieces. Having done the stadium tour on the the 100 years game with my daughters, I noted in the changing rooms that they have approx 6 plans for corners (attacking and defending) and free kicks with each player having instructions for markers and those who come short, stay up drop back etc. These were specific for this match, so assume this is the case for each game.

I think the issue is, we're not very good at them, so your point about practicing them might carry weight

Some photographic proof.

1173
 
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Shosho

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I can confirm that we do have routines for set pieces. Having done the stadium tour on the the 100 years game with my daughters, I noted in the changing rooms that they have approx 6 plans for corners (attacking and defending) and free kicks with each player having instructions for markers and those who come short, stay up drop back etc. These were specific for this match, so assume this is the case for each game.

I think the issue is, we're not very good at them, so your point about practicing them might carry weight

Some photographic proof.

View attachment 1173
Sensational, love it 😍
 

Foley

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I can confirm that we do have routines for set pieces. Having done the stadium tour on the the 100 years game with my daughters, I noted in the changing rooms that they have approx 6 plans for corners (attacking and defending) and free kicks with each player having instructions for markers and those who come short, stay up drop back etc. These were specific for this match, so assume this is the case for each game.

I think the issue is, we're not very good at them, so your point about practicing them might carry weight

Some photographic proof.

View attachment 1173
I suspect that it isn't easy!
Phil Thompson was on Sky the other day bemoaning how many PL players can't beat the first man on a corner.
With Division 3 players if you haven't a Levi. Brock it is not hugely surprising .
Shosho has shown stats suggesting that goals from corners are rare.
Doesn't mean that they shouldn't practice a lot. Something I assume that they do.
 
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