General Controversy corner....

Essexyellows

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A place for moral/ethical discussions.
I`ll start. :)

Bloke gets "honey trapped" by "paedo-hunting vigilante types".


Lawyers said the vigilantes' activities interfered with his rights under ECHR Article 8 and using their evidence in any trial would mean the court was acting "incompatibly" with those rights.

Discuss.
 

oxford1985

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i find it crazy, that in any case before a judge, if the "evidence" was obtained incorrectly it cannot be used.

however the evidence was gained it showed the person done what they are accused of..
 

Pete Burrett

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Saw a US documentary about the use of 'bait cars' by some police forces. Basically, a parked car is left unlocked with a lap top or similar valuable left on the front passenger seat. An opportunist thief sees his chance, opens the car, takes the lap top and is promptly arrested for theft by nearby waiting officers.

How would I feel about being arrested under those circumstances? Irrelevant, as I wouldn't take the lap top. How do I think the thief should feel? One of the thieves featured was most perturbed, complaining about his civil rights and entrapment. See his point, but can't feel much sympathy.
 

Essexyellows

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There in is the issue, many of us normal folk are probably 90%+ unlikely to do "wrong".

However others are not be that due to mindset, comprehension, circumstances etc etc. they maybe in the "more likely to do wrong" bracket.

So if you lay "bait" you will catch those of the weaker mindset. A bit like fishing a well stocked lake.

Does that make laying the bait morally right or wrong?
 

m

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I guess the question is where does or can it end?

I don't think many, myself included, would argue against the conviction of Mark Sutherland.

It gets greyer in the case mentioned by @Pete Burrett and where comes the point where a crime is created solely by opportunity?

Most, if not all, of us will have picked up a £5 or £10 note which we found on the street and considered it a bit of luck. Where do you draw the line?
 

Pete Burrett

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Most, if not all, of us will have picked up a £5 or £10 note which we found on the street and considered it a bit of luck. Where do you draw the line?
Good point. Done that myself. Felt happy on the basis that I had no idea who the note belonged to or how to return it to them. Could have been bait though, and a policeman could have leapt from behind a nearby tree and cuffed me. Or is 'finding' something in the open different to 'finding' it in an unlocked car?
 

m

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Or is 'finding' something in the open different to 'finding' it in an unlocked car?

I think it is different. The point of creating a crime still stands though.

Imagine the window is open on the car. It's a bundle of notes. You're struggling to make ends meet that month. It's a 'bad' neighbourhood and the money will be surely gone in 5 minutes anyway...
 

Peterdev

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Good point. Done that myself. Felt happy on the basis that I had no idea who the note belonged to or how to return it to them. Could have been bait though, and a policeman could have leapt from behind a nearby tree and cuffed me. Or is 'finding' something in the open different to 'finding' it in an unlocked car?
I had an instance last year when someone pushed in front of me at the petrol station to inflate his tyres. He seemed to take an age. Still gobsmacked by his rudeness as he drove off in his posh car something dropped out of his pocket, and whilst I would normally have waved at the driver, I didn’t.
to my immense satisfaction I discovered a £20 note on the ground.
Thankfully it wasn’t windy
 

Essexyellows

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Theft by finding is an offence if you don`t make a reasonable attempt to find the owner.

EG: A wallet with ID in it - you are legally compelled to act reasonably as the owner can/could be found. A random £10 "no reasonable way" to find the owner.
 

Yellow River

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If you happen to find money in an open public space , in value at what level do you pocket it or take it to your local police station?

£20? £50? £100? £200? £500? £1000?

What’s your personal moral cutoff point?:unsure:
 

Essexyellows

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So, getting back to the case.

The guilty party has a preclusion to contact children for sexual gratification.

The group provided the bait. He took it.

At what point is he being encouraged or led on by the group?

Should they stop at the first image, that is evidence enough for the police to charge................................ or they keep feeding him until it comes to the "meet-up" and clicks for their Youtube/social media stuff ?
 

Essexyellows

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If you happen to find money in an open public space , in value at what level do you pocket it or take it to your local police station?

£20? £50? £100? £200? £500? £1000?

What’s your personal moral cutoff point?:unsure:

See above............ no contact details, finders keepers. Contact details present hand it in to the police (y)
 

AbbeyOx

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Saw a US documentary about the use of 'bait cars' by some police forces. Basically, a parked car is left unlocked with a lap top or similar valuable left on the front passenger seat. An opportunist thief sees his chance, opens the car, takes the lap top and is promptly arrested for theft by nearby waiting officers.

How would I feel about being arrested under those circumstances? Irrelevant, as I wouldn't take the lap top. How do I think the thief should feel? One of the thieves featured was most perturbed, complaining about his civil rights and entrapment. See his point, but can't feel much sympathy.
cops do it in this country with bait houses. apparently areas with high burglary’s have reported much lower cases when that methods used, so if it stops the thieving little b’stads then it’s a good thing
 

HKYellow

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I guess the question is where does or can it end?

I don't think many, myself included, would argue against the conviction of Mark Sutherland.

It gets greyer in the case mentioned by @Pete Burrett and where comes the point where a crime is created solely by opportunity?

Most, if not all, of us will have picked up a £5 or £10 note which we found on the street and considered it a bit of luck. Where do you draw the line?

Thats interesting you say that. In Japan and some other Asian countries, its the opposite and nearly all the time the money, wallet, item is returned to the owner. Its considered back luck if you actually keep the item.

Dodgy British eh....
 

Ricky Otto

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The seagulls follow the trawler because they think fish will be thrown into the sea but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush . No smoke without fire.
 

Essexyellows

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There are various Gull`s.
It should be "The gull`s follow the trawler at sea"...
 

mooro

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i find it crazy, that in any case before a judge, if the "evidence" was obtained incorrectly it cannot be used.

however the evidence was gained it showed the person done what they are accused of..
However frustrating it is when you hear cases of someone who 'gets off' on such a technicality, it is better that than others being convicted via unregulated fabrication of evidence/confession etc.

I fully support regulated police operations of this type, but am wary of encouraging the public to do the same.

While this particular group acted with some restraint, (although you could question where things would have stood if he had become violent and attacked one of them) it is a slippery slope when vigilantes are given the nod to act as they see fit - (let us not forget attacks on pediatricians by ill informed mobs in times gone by) - just ask the statue building industry.

The other issue is where some well meaning vigilantes cross over a more coordinated wider police operation and blow the whole thing (or have I been watching too many ITV dramas?)
 
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