Brexit

[Marked Ox]

If it was, it would be in the news constantly, like Labour's anti-Semitism. I saw the interview and it felt as much of a slight against BoJo and a bit of a moan, than a hardcore case of rampant Islamophobia. For one, if as you say it's top to bottom, why did Sajid Javid get promoted? I'd think they would prohibit Muslims being ministers if that is the case or not even have Muslims as MPs full stop. Just doesn't stack up to outright hatred - the little Englanders in their clubs, sure. Unlike Labour, where it's all got sadly unseemly

The Sajid Javid argument doesn't stack up considering Labour have had Jewish MPs and senior Jewish Party members.

The Labour issue is running (and rightly so because it deserves it) because the Daily Mail have basically got a hard on over it. They run anything vaguely related to it on an almost daily basis whether recent or many years ago (ie. The picture of Corbyn in Paris). And other media are then picking up on it. The Mirror or Guardian aren't doing the same about the Tory Issues that has been a long-standing accusation and far longer than the Labour anti-Semitism Issue.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Sorry but that's quite one-eyed. The internal row in the Labout Party is because the vast majority of them are not anti-semitic, but some at the top are alleged to be! Most people (in both parties) are decent human beings - but, as when you are cooking kidney beans (?!!), sometimes the poison and lightweight froth seems to float to the top.

If you look at who is on the NEC now, fringe events at the last party conference, the lack of acknowledgement of what anti-Semitism is, holocaust denial, the leader historic links with terrorist organisations, Naz Shah , I can go on. I have no doubt, and I will repeat it again, that the Tory party has Islamophobic elements and racist elements. I cannot see the prevalence that we are seeing as is with Labour today that is happening right now.

Baroness Warsi has been pretty conclusive that she thinks Islamophobia is a major problem for the Tory party. The party's actions over Grenfell and Windrush have also not done much for their reputation on ethnic minorities.

Personally I'm not sure to what level anti-semitism is a genuine problem in the Labour party. I think it's unfortunate for anyone who's interested in actually dealing with anti-semitism that the issue's been co-opted by those in the media and parliament that are anti-Corbyn at any costs.

Warsi is another funny one. She was majorly sidelined by Cameron and has had a major downer on her party since then. I don't say she is lying or anything like that, but an issue like Labours won't be hidden will it?

Windrush was so embarrassing. I cannot conceive why anyone thought it was a bright idea. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Bereft of care or sympathy.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The Sajid Javid argument doesn't stack up considering Labour have had Jewish MPs and senior Jewish Party members.

The Labour issue is running (and rightly so because it deserves it) because the Daily Mail have basically got a hard on over it. They run anything vaguely related to it on an almost daily basis whether recent or many years ago (ie. The picture of Corbyn in Paris). And other media are then picking up on it. The Mirror or Guardian aren't doing the same about the Tory Issues that has been a long-standing accusation and far longer than the Labour anti-Semitism Issue.

Stop blaming the Daily Mail. I don't read that crap or believe the bile in it. Nor is it all that credible (outside of plastic in the sea that they deserve credit for starting). I do laugh at how seriously some people take it when they read crap like the Gruaniad. Both full of slanted nonsense IMHO.

Political journalists from many organisations have been questioning who Labour have been letting in since Corbyn elected as leader and the views they have. Corbyn has brought this on himself and let anti-Semites get higher in the party. He's to blame

 

[Scotters]

Political journalists from many organisations have been questioning who Labour have been letting in since Corbyn elected as leader and the views they have. Corbyn has brought this on himself and let anti-Semites get higher in the party. He's to blame

If by the media you're talking newspapers, they've been almost universally hostile to Corbyn from Day 1, possibly with the exception of the Mirror. You talk about papers being full of slanted nonsense, but also seem to be taking the approach that all the media are talking about it, so it must be a genuine problem.

Anti-semitism's been weaponised as a part of the anti-Corbyn movement, and given the amount of rubbish they've tried to make stick in the past, this has really undermined the credibility of the charges on this issue, for me anyway.

 

[dannyc]

Stop blaming the Daily Mail. I don't read that crap or believe the bile in it. Nor is it all that credible (outside of plastic in the sea that they deserve credit for starting). I do laugh at how seriously some people take it when they read crap like the Gruaniad. Both full of slanted nonsense IMHO.

Political journalists from many organisations have been questioning who Labour have been letting in since Corbyn elected as leader and the views they have. Corbyn has brought this on himself and let anti-Semites get higher in the party. He's to blame

so you dont read any paper then most write nonsense anyway.

 

[Marked Ox]

If you look at who is on the NEC now, fringe events at the last party conference, the lack of acknowledgement of what anti-Semitism is, holocaust denial, the leader historic links with terrorist organisations, Naz Shah , I can go on. I have no doubt, and I will repeat it again, that the Tory party has Islamophobic elements and racist elements. I cannot see the prevalence that we are seeing as is with Labour today that is happening right now.


Warsi is another funny one. She was majorly sidelined by Cameron and has had a major downer on her party since then. I don't say she is lying or anything like that, but an issue like Labours won't be hidden will it?

Windrush was so embarrassing. I cannot conceive why anyone thought it was a bright idea. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Bereft of care or sympathy.

The Tories have dodgy fringe events that are on a par at their Conference, all parties do so that is utterly irrelevant as suggested evidence.

There is enough Tories worried by the issue with Islamophobia to suggest it is a major issue. Warsi is just one of plenty over years and you've played the woman there rather than her message which she will have knowledge being right at the centre of Tory Party for so long. However uncomfortable her message is for the Tories.

And I will keep mentioning the Daily Mail in regards the Labour issue as they are driving the story which is very relevant, whether you read it or not is irrelevant, as it is almost daily stories which is pulling in the other media.

 

[Whingit]

Guido is worse than the DM at this IMO. As a side note, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the DM changes now there's a new editor.

 

[Gary Baldi]

If by the media you're talking newspapers, they've been almost universally hostile to Corbyn from Day 1, possibly with the exception of the Mirror. You talk about papers being full of slanted nonsense, but also seem to be taking the approach that all the media are talking about it, so it must be a genuine problem.

Anti-semitism's been weaponised as a part of the anti-Corbyn movement, and given the amount of rubbish they've tried to make stick in the past, this has really undermined the credibility of the charges on this issue, for me anyway.

I don't know if all the media are talking about! I see people commenting about how Mail, the Murdoch "fascists", Torygraph etc are going on about it and haven't given Corbyn a fair shake. Which is quite ridiculous. With social media, it's hard to avoid people's reactions to the media! If Corbyn had dealt with Livingstone all that time ago, would we be here? He obfuscated, and is paying the price. Even his Shadow Chancellor is miffed.

The Tories have dodgy fringe events that are on a par at their Conference, all parties do so that is utterly irrelevant as suggested evidence.

There is enough Tories worried by the issue with Islamophobia to suggest it is a major issue. Warsi is just one of plenty over years and you've played the woman there rather than her message which she will have knowledge being right at the centre of Tory Party for so long. However uncomfortable her message is for the Tories.

And I will keep mentioning the Daily Mail in regards the Labour issue as they are driving the story which is very relevant, whether you read it or not is irrelevant, as it is almost daily stories which is pulling in the other media.

I've never denied they don't have dodgy events!

Suggesting is not where the Labour reality is. Like Warsi, people like John Mann and Frank Field have had personal issues with Corbyn, so I've taken a pinch of salt with their views. Confirmation bias, right? I have no doubt Warsi has received some stupid comments but it does not mean the Tories are all rampant Islamophobes - being worried is different to what we see happening in Labour. When someone like Margaret Hodge, who I'm not a massive fan of, say what they did about Corbyn, it makes me take notice.

I don't know why you'd get so wound up about the Mail. It's nonsense written by idiots. I find the Grauniad hypocritical nonsense, but I don't read it all that often, so it's not a problem for me. That rag gets more credit than it deserves. More to life than the large headlines in the Mail or Express!

 

[dannyc]

I don't know if all the media are talking about! I see people commenting about how Mail, the Murdoch "fascists", Torygraph etc are going on about it and haven't given Corbyn a fair shake. Which is quite ridiculous. With social media, it's hard to avoid people's reactions to the media! If Corbyn had dealt with Livingstone all that time ago, would we be here? He obfuscated, and is paying the price. Even his Shadow Chancellor is miffed.

I've never denied they don't have dodgy events!

Suggesting is not where the Labour reality is. Like Warsi, people like John Mann and Frank Field have had personal issues with Corbyn, so I've taken a pinch of salt with their views. Confirmation bias, right? I have no doubt Warsi has received some stupid comments but it does not mean the Tories are all rampant Islamophobes - being worried is different to what we see happening in Labour. When someone like Margaret Hodge, who I'm not a massive fan of, say what they did about Corbyn, it makes me take notice.

I don't know why you'd get so wound up about the Mail. It's nonsense written by idiots. I find the Grauniad hypocritical nonsense, but I don't read it all that often, so it's not a problem for me. That rag gets more credit than it deserves. More to life than the large headlines in the Mail or Express!

what about the gaurdian and the independant then ?

 

[Marked Ox]

I don't know if all the media are talking about! I see people commenting about how Mail, the Murdoch "fascists", Torygraph etc are going on about it and haven't given Corbyn a fair shake. Which is quite ridiculous. With social media, it's hard to avoid people's reactions to the media! If Corbyn had dealt with Livingstone all that time ago, would we be here? He obfuscated, and is paying the price. Even his Shadow Chancellor is miffed.

I've never denied they don't have dodgy events!

Suggesting is not where the Labour reality is. Like Warsi, people like John Mann and Frank Field have had personal issues with Corbyn, so I've taken a pinch of salt with their views. Confirmation bias, right? I have no doubt Warsi has received some stupid comments but it does not mean the Tories are all rampant Islamophobes - being worried is different to what we see happening in Labour. When someone like Margaret Hodge, who I'm not a massive fan of, say what they did about Corbyn, it makes me take notice.

I don't know why you'd get so wound up about the Mail. It's nonsense written by idiots. I find the Grauniad hypocritical nonsense, but I don't read it all that often, so it's not a problem for me. That rag gets more credit than it deserves. More to life than the large headlines in the Mail or Express!

The BBC, Sky News and plenty of other papers have since picked up on it and have covered it quite a lot since the DM have run and run with it. I'm not in the least bit wound up by the Mail but in this instance they are the main driver of the story continuing to be in the public eye. You have asserted that the Tory Islamophobia problem isn't anywhere as significant as Labour's anti-semitism considering the lack of public coverage; my point is that the story about Tory Islamophobia issue doesn't have an equivalent of the DM hammering on about it on a daily basis. Yet stories persist about a significant problem exists in the Tory Party, and far longer in time than the Labour Jewish issue, which are supported by significant members of the Tory Party.

I never said all Tories are islamophobes, just like all Labour aren't all anti-semites.

 

[warksox]

So those here who think Corbyn's continuing anti-semitism issues are down to the Daily Mail and other UK media presumably support Donald Trump when he declares Fake News with anything he disagrees with?
Blaming the media is a lazy political argument to close down debate and deflect attention from the real issue. Trying to deflect the argument onto Tory Islamaphobia won't work either.
This problem will not go away until decisive action is taken by the Labour party leadership. They need to stop shooting the messengers (John Mann, Frank Field, Margaret Hodge et al) and listen to them instead, listen to Watson & McDonnell who warn that anti-semitism is now an existential issue for the Labour party.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The BBC, Sky News and plenty of other papers have since picked up on it and have covered it quite a lot since the DM have run and run with it. I'm not in the least bit wound up by the Mail but in this instance they are the main driver of the story continuing to be in the public eye. You have asserted that the Tory Islamophobia problem isn't anywhere as significant as Labour's anti-semitism considering the lack of public coverage; my point is that the story about Tory Islamophobia issue doesn't have an equivalent of the DM hammering on about it on a daily basis. Yet stories persist about a significant problem exists in the Tory Party, and far longer in time than the Labour Jewish issue, which are supported by significant members of the Tory Party.

I never said all Tories are islamophobes, just like all Labour aren't all anti-semites.

The fact new stuff keeps coming out suggests the Mail are reporting on a current issue. Why are Labour party allowing this issue to rumble on? Why are they so incompetent at something as simple as deciding on a definition of anti-Semitism?

If they were smart, they get themselves organised and let the Mail go back to headlines about Posh Spice or health cures, etc. But somehow, Labour have made it worse rather than better. It's not like the media are making the issue up. It's still there and still happening. Deflecting onto the Tories doesn't hide what the Labour party have become recently. The new nasty party?

 

[Sharp Edges]

The BBC, Sky News and plenty of other papers have since picked up on it and have covered it quite a lot since the DM have run and run with it. I'm not in the least bit wound up by the Mail but in this instance they are the main driver of the story continuing to be in the public eye. You have asserted that the Tory Islamophobia problem isn't anywhere as significant as Labour's anti-semitism considering the lack of public coverage; my point is that the story about Tory Islamophobia issue doesn't have an equivalent of the DM hammering on about it on a daily basis. Yet stories persist about a significant problem exists in the Tory Party, and far longer in time than the Labour Jewish issue, which are supported by significant members of the Tory Party.

I never said all Tories are islamophobes, just like all Labour aren't all anti-semites.

Just because it hasn't been in the papers doesn't mean the issue hasn't been there for years, Corbyn didn't get out of bed a month ago and decide he hated Jews. Interviews I have seen with him he waffles on about the labour partys position, not his own opinion - says everything to me.

 

[Marked Ox]

So those here who think Corbyn's continuing anti-semitism issues are down to the Daily Mail and other UK media presumably support Donald Trump when he declares Fake News with anything he disagrees with?
Blaming the media is a lazy political argument to close down debate and deflect attention from the real issue. Trying to deflect the argument onto Tory Islamaphobia won't work either.
This problem will not go away until decisive action is taken by the Labour party leadership. They need to stop shooting the messengers (John Mann, Frank Field, Margaret Hodge et al) and listen to them instead, listen to Watson & McDonnell who warn that anti-semitism is now an existential issue for the Labour party.

I don't blame the DM etc, just making the point they are driving the story and keep it going on. It is what they and other tabloids do.

I have been quite clear that Labour/Momentum are making a joke of themselves on this thread and others whether on anti-Semitism or other subjects. Corbyn and Momentum have polarised the politics of Labour and are in the process of moving it to a permanent opposition status with another 2 moderate MPs losing a vote of no confidence and will get deselected for the next election.

And talking about the Tories and their issues with Islamophobia, considering prominent Tories have raised it themselves is perfectly reasonable considering it is a different side of the same coin.

Why so defensive about the Tory Party's problems? It is perfectly possible to discuss both.

 

[Marked Ox]

The fact new stuff keeps coming out suggests the Mail are reporting on a current issue. Why are Labour party allowing this issue to rumble on? Why are they so incompetent at something as simple as deciding on a definition of anti-Semitism?

If they were smart, they get themselves organised and let the Mail go back to headlines about Posh Spice or health cures, etc. But somehow, Labour have made it worse rather than better. It's not like the media are making the issue up. It's still there and still happening. Deflecting onto the Tories doesn't hide what the Labour party have become recently. The new nasty party?

How is bringing up stuff from years ago of Corbyn meeting Palestinians members of the PLO which is a rehash of a years old earlier article by the DM new?

It isn't new, as it was well publicised from when he took over leadership (funnily enough by papers like the DM) that Corbyn is pro Palestine, anti Israel as he has been from his earliest days as a backbencher yet this has been one of the DMs major attack points. Again how is this new?

Without doubt Labour have epically screwed this up.

Why are you so defensive about the Islamophobia problems in the Tory Party when it is the same problem as Labour, just a different religion?

 

[Marked Ox]

Just because it hasn't been in the papers doesn't mean the issue hasn't been there for years, Corbyn didn't get out of bed a month ago and decide he hated Jews. Interviews I have seen with him he waffles on about the labour partys position, not his own opinion - says everything to me.

I don't believe Corbyn hates Jews, he hates the state of Israel and there is a difference. He has collaborated with Jewish organisations that also are anti-zionist on numerous occasions apparently.

As for the time thing, it was a fringe issue with Labour until Momentum got their claws into the party. I've seen reports going back a fair few elections of senior Tories lamenting the party attitude to Muslims and why they fail to get good numbers of their votes.

 

[Gary Baldi]

How is bringing up stuff from years ago of Corbyn meeting Palestinians members of the PLO which is a rehash of a years old earlier article by the DM new?

It isn't new, as it was well publicised from when he took over leadership (funnily enough by papers like the DM) that Corbyn is pro Palestine, anti Israel as he has been from his earliest days as a backbencher yet this has been one of the DMs major attack points. Again how is this new?

Without doubt Labour have epically screwed this up.

Why are you so defensive about the Islamophobia problems in the Tory Party when it is the same problem as Labour, just a different religion?

The odd article rehash doesn't mean it's all old news - you really are obssesed with the DM. Wow

I'm not. I've said there is Islamophobia in the Tory party. I disagree with the "they are as bad as the Labour party "part. Which so far, there is nothing like the drip, drip of new stories and controversies. It's still all about Brexit. Think about how quickly the Govt would crumble with Brexit + Islamophobia issues. Now is the prime time for the left wing media to get it out there.

Clearly we are never going to agree (especially as I know I am right ), so let's leave it there for respect for everyone else

 

[HayfieldYellow]

we have a PR vote and they immediately introduce a policy of wanting another PR vote on the same thing because they didn't get the result they wanted.

Sorry, but I can't let that claim go uncontested.

Whatever the referendum was, it most certainly wasn't "PR". Proportional Representation is what is says on the tin: it aims to ensure that representation (the number of MPs) is proportional (i.e. matches the number of votes). If 40% of the population votes for party A, then party A gets 40% of the seats in Parliament. It's about elections with multiple parties and multiple seats, and you simply can't meaningfully apply the principles of PR to a binary referendum.

If you think of the referendum in election terms, there were basically two "candidates" (Leave and Remain) and one "seat" (whether or not we leave the EU). In a single-seat election, PR and First-Past-The-Post are identical - whoever gets the most votes, wins. The "representation" from the referendum is pretty much the opposite of "proportional": Leave got 52% of the vote and yet we're 100% leaving. Remain got 48% of the vote and get 0% representation.

That's one of the reasons why Brexit so divisive and why we "Remoaners" are so pissed off. You won by a whisker and yet you're claiming a solid mandate for the hardest Brexit possible.

 

[tonyw]

Sorry, but I can't let that claim go uncontested.

Whatever the referendum was, it most certainly wasn't "PR". Proportional Representation is what is says on the tin: it aims to ensure that representation (the number of MPs) is proportional (i.e. matches the number of votes). If 40% of the population votes for party A, then party A gets 40% of the seats in Parliament. It's about elections with multiple parties and multiple seats, and you simply can't meaningfully apply the principles of PR to a binary referendum.

If you think of the referendum in election terms, there were basically two "candidates" (Leave and Remain) and one "seat" (whether or not we leave the EU). In a single-seat election, PR and First-Past-The-Post are identical - whoever gets the most votes, wins. The "representation" from the referendum is pretty much the opposite of "proportional": Leave got 52% of the vote and yet we're 100% leaving. Remain got 48% of the vote and get 0% representation.

That's one of the reasons why Brexit so divisive and why we "Remoaners" are so pissed off. You won by a whisker and yet you're claiming a solid mandate for the hardest Brexit possible.

To be fair to Sharp Edges, I'm pretty sure he wasn't talking about Brexit - he was talking about the 2011 Alternative Vote Referendum. When 'No' won over two thirds of the vote.

It's easy to forget about because there was very little serious debate on the issue, and what there was was ugly, fractious and personal.

 

[Whingit]

Everything is fine.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1042020675500826625