Brexit

[Gary Baldi]

It was only recently that we finally paid off our financial debt to the USA from the 2nd World War.

Interestingly, Cameron was in the news today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42806207

"It's turned out less badly than we first thought. But it's still going to be difficult." Oops.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I suppose from the apocalypse that he and Osbourne portayed, I suppose it's a lot better than they thought right now. Now precursor to the future though.

 

[Ian]

What if India was to send us the bill for colonising and asset stripping their nation?

Perhaps China might also send us a bill for sacking Beijing?

 

[Ian]

There is a difference between expressing an opinion and expressing ignorance.

 

[Ian]

In 1750, India accounted for 25% of the world's industrial output, declining to 2% of the world's industrial output in 1900. Britain replaced India as the world's largest textile manufacturer in the 19th century. In terms of urbanisation, Mughal India had a higher percentage of its population (15%) living in urban centers in 1600 than British India did in the 19th century.

The British plundered the world. Not just India... If we had to compensate the world for what we have taken from them through military might...

Is this really something to be proud and patriotic about?

 

[Ian]

Many Brits are ignorant of British history, and beat their chests as if we were a superior species due to the events of WWII and to a lesser extent WWI - whilst knowing little if the realities...

A little insight into our role in India, and the trade deal Brexiteers talk about having with India. Oh, and every nation wants something in return for us having a trade deal with them... India want visas for their citizens to live and work here...

 

[Ian]

WW1. Around 1.4 million Indians served during the war with around 74,000 fatalities. But other than manpower, India offered a substantia amount of financial and material aid which again is not well profiled in the history books or the press.

The contributions from Indian revenues towards the cost of the war amounted to £146.2 million to the end of 1919-20. In today’s terms these would amount to around £14 billion.

Two and a half million Indians also fought for British forces in the Second World War, by the end of which £1.25bn of Britain's total £3bn war debt was owed to India, which was merely the tip of the iceberg that was colonial exploitation.

It still hasn't been paid.

In 1943, Churchill diverted food away from India to allies in Europe, resulting in a famine in India that killed 4,000,000 people.


These are facts that people like PeterDev are ignorant of, or forget in triumphalist, ignorant nationalism. He also is ignorant of the causes of WWII which came from WWI...

Too many Brits are so ignorant of history that we are bound to repeat the mistakes...


Those who least need to listen to the following speaker will probably listen to the following, whilst those mist needing to listen will be busy expressing their ignorance.

 

[Marked Ox]

In 1750, India accounted for 25% of the world's industrial output, declining to 2% of the world's industrial output in 1900. Britain replaced India as the world's largest textile manufacturer in the 19th century. In terms of urbanisation, Mughal India had a higher percentage of its population (15%) living in urban centers in 1600 than British India did in the 19th century.

The British plundered the world. Not just India... If we had to compensate the world for what we have taken from them through military might...

Is this really something to be proud and patriotic about?

I'm neither proud or embarrassed by our colonial history.

It is what it is, with decisions made in the context/values of the times. Too much now it is analysed by people using modern values which have no bearing on the decision of the time for their own ends (ie. The protests about Cecil Rhodes locally, including by the present Rhodes Scholar). Therefore either trying to change history or hide history because it isn't nice or suits the person's viewpoint and losing the likelihood of learning from it.

I enjoy reading books/articles that analyse history in the context of the times, then analyse from the modern viewpoint. Then even if you have problems with some of their views, you can understand where the author is coming from.

 

[Flean]

I’m pleased you are able to share the humour....shame it’s more or less true though which is less than funny

It's not 1945 anymore, Peter. I know hardcore Brexiteers would like it to be, but I'm afraid we are a few generations beyond that now.

 

[Marked Ox]

I find it quite embarrassing when 'the west' starts criticising growing economies for polluting, burning fossil fuels etc when 'we' were doing exactly the same thing at the same stage in our industrial evolution. It's alright saying 'yeh, but we know better now' but these countries simply want to benefit from the developments we ourselves enjoyed in the past, and can't necessarily afford clean alternatives.

Absolutely, I agree with your point.

That said a developing country, if they can get into the manufacturing side of renewable energy then it can be a driver for their economy. Or if a developing country (I think Costa Rica may have done this) makes a conscious effort to go renewable then long term I suspect it will work out cheaper especially with their commitment made to the Paris Accord*.

*Although not Costa Rica as they felt it didn't go far enough

 

[Gary Baldi]

The issue with reparations is how far you go back, to whom and for how much. What is the historical stopping point? There comes a point where elements of society have to stop their constant agonising and hand wringing about the past and put that effort to change the future. Which we can all do. Removing statues doesn't delete history, better to talk about Cecil Rhodes or Stalin than hide them away.

Heaven forbid some people look at the roots of slavery. To say everyone was at it, is an understatement.

I wouldn't want to go back to 1945. Not sure anyone wants that. Having to go outside to take a leak?

 

[Peterdev]

I’m glad I triggered an informed discussion. It is hard to quantify exactly how much we ran up in debt to the USA for their help in winning the war. It has just recently been paid off.
I’m sure all of us have some ignorance when it comes to the subject of figures. We still do not know the full extent of what is expected to be paid to the EU, although there are plenty of estimates suggesting over £50billion.
Although I have an A level in History I’m not a statistician so the figures I’ve seen have been lifted from newspapers I’ve read, not necessarily the Daily Mail, as I prefer the Telegraph and occasionally the Guardian.
As mentioned the Indians are long term friends of this country and I think our debt to them is recognised as such.

 

[Ian]

I’m glad I triggered an informed discussion. It is hard to quantify exactly how much we ran up in debt to the USA for their help in winning the war. It has just recently been paid off.
I’m sure all of us have some ignorance when it comes to the subject of figures. We still do not know the full extent of what is expected to be paid to the EU, although there are plenty of estimates suggesting over £50billion.
Although I have an A level in History I’m not a statistician so the figures I’ve seen have been lifted from newspapers I’ve read, not necessarily the Daily Mail, as I prefer the Telegraph and occasionally the Guardian.
As mentioned the Indians are long term friends of this country and I think our debt to them is recognised as such.

The 'divorce settlement', includes paying into the pension pot of the EU - which many British citizens will be drawing from, not just Nigel Farage, but qualified, hardworking people too.

Then there are the things that our government and our MEP's have said need to be done, and we've agreed to pay our share for... Is it patriotic to back out of agreements, to get 27 other nations to agree with us to do something and then for us not to pay? Do the Brexiters go to a restaurant with their friends and then back out of paying their share of the bill?

Then there is the European Medicines Agency, based in London. 28 nations have funded it. When the UK quits, there will be 27, and none of those 27 nations wants their money employing foreigners working outside of the EU... So the Medicines Agency is having to move to Amsterdam at great cost. The UK bid and won the competition to get it here, now we must pay the cost for our stupidity and pay for the relocation, and lose all the benefits associated with having it here.

Stupid, stupid, stupid, but that's what people voted for! Oh, they didn't understand? But they did, and sovereignty which remained at all times in our parliament was the issue... Oh...

 

[Ian]

Here is Nigel Farage saying that he wants a pension from the countries that are members of the European Union. He wants the member nations to pay his pension, and the 27 nations that will remain in the EU want Britain to pay our share of the pensions of people like Nigel Farage - and then PeterDev and others are complaining... Who elected Farage and his UKIP leaches in the first place?

And other than making rude jokes about Belgians and Germans, drinking and smoking and raging on TV and radio, as an MEP, what has Nigel Farage done for us?

 

[Peterdev]

Just to reply to you on one note, Ian, I am far from ignorant of the mooted causes for the Second World War.
Many will argue that the main reason was the demand for reparations made by the allies was unaffordable.
That is a valid argument. Added to that were the moneylenders in Germany who as it happened were largely Jewish. They were therefore scapegoats for the problems in and around Germany at that time.
The German people were offered Hitler, and although they didn’t initially say yes and we’re close, Hindenburg was browbeaten into Hitler as Chancellor of Germany. With another election that was a sham, Hitler was to remain until 1945.
The main argument put forward for the EEC as it was, was the opportunity for an end to dictatorship.
Maybe one of the reasons we voted for,exit was the thought of Germany and France dictating policy to everyone else

 

[Peterdev]

I wasn’t looking to provide a history lesson Pete. It was just for the benefit of Ian who seem to think I’m ignorant of the origins of WW2 which I’m not.
Whilst the EU project is not dictated by Germany and France, I think that is the perception many have.
My reason for out was always accountability and democracy.
I’ve never been interested in the issue of excluding foreigners...unfortunately the press latched on to that one as did so many politicians and their followers

 

[Flean]

I wasn’t looking to provide a history lesson Pete. It was just for the benefit of Ian who seem to think I’m ignorant of the origins of WW2 which I’m not.
Whilst the EU project is not dictated by Germany and France, I think that is the perception many have.
My reason for out was always accountability and democracy.
I’ve never been interested in the issue of excluding foreigners...unfortunately the press latched on to that one as did so many politicians and their followers

I'll preempt Peter's next claim by leaving this here.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36276175

 

[Peterdev]

Covering old ground here flean

 

[Flean]

Covering old ground here flean

Indeed, but you don't seem to have any good arguments, Peter. The war... Democracy and accountability (which have both been proven wrong) seem to be your only weapons. I'm not too sure you fully believe in the benefits to the population of Brexit yourself.

 

[Ian]

The EU - which isn't a thing, but better described as 28 nations coming together to make decisions in the best interests of all by consensus - with the UK government having a veto if there isn't consensus...

There is also the European parliament, with MEP's elected by proportional representation. I can't say if the MEP's put forward by their parties are any good. Farage makes somewhat offensive jokes that some find offensive, other MEP's have entertained" us with racist references to Bongo Bongo Land - and at times they've been sexist, if not impersonating Turkish MP's by fighting until there is a knockout. And that's just UKIP. Oh!!!

But here in Britain, we have true democracy. Those non-expert Lords, appointed for political favours and/or donations. And our MP's elected to represent the true will of the people by a first past the post system. The winning party then has a vote and veto if it's not happy with the consensus of the other 27 nations that are our partners in the EU.

And of course the biggest question is... How will Brexit make England great again? England has long been in partnership... Partnership with the Scots, but also the Turks, the Germans, the French...


What exactly is the plan for England after Brexit? No longer part of the European consensus making. Our exporters will have to obey their rules. They can stop us selling anything that doens't meet their required standards to threatens their jobs and prosperity Even under whatever WTO rules are...

Counties that dwarf Britain militarily are wondering why the UK is permanently on the UN's Security Council.

Bumbling Boris seems to think that building a new bridge to France is what people want. He's not had any other ideas for England post-Brexit. Rees-Mogg. Does he have the Englishman's best interests at heart or those of his Eton chums? He does speak like a noble Lord, someone our forefathers were tied to... With house prices rising, we'll all soon be renting from the likes of Rees-Mogg and grateful to him for renting us a home whilst leaving us with a few hours for family and just enough money for food... It'll be just like the good old days when England rules the world and people worked hard, were conscripted, and died young.