Brexit

[Peterdev]

Don’t see it that way at all. The likes of Heseltine warning that brexit will be worse than Corbyn. We’re leaving and he should get over it. Keir Starmer saying there should be another referendum...what part of no does he not understand?
I’m not so sure he was a good part of the coalition. Caved in on tuition fees, and the electorate rewarded him with a massive reduction in MPs at the local election and subsequent general election.
He then claimed he acted in the national interest.
Then he gets awarded a knighthood. I just feel that are far better cases for awards than career politicians or any politician for that matter.

 

[Marked Ox]

Don’t see it that way at all. The likes of Heseltine warning that brexit will be worse than Corbyn. We’re leaving and he should get over it. Keir Starmer saying there should be another referendum...what part of no does he not understand?
I’m not so sure he was a good part of the coalition. Caved in on tuition fees, and the electorate rewarded him with a massive reduction in MPs at the local election and subsequent general election.
He then claimed he acted in the national interest.
Then he gets awarded a knighthood. I just feel that are far better cases for awards than career politicians or any politician for that matter.

So it is because they have a different viewpoint to you.

Why should they get over it when they have a conviction that Brexit is in their opinion going to be bad for Britain, just as the pro Brexiters had the same about the EU prior to the Referendum?

Also, Heseltine could be right so he is right to warn as that is his viewpoint. Free speech and all that. Keir Starmer has every right to campaign for another referendum, just like the pro Brexiters did for all those years.

If they have to get over it, why did the pro Brexiters not have to get over it as previously we had a referendum to join the European project? If you think the Brexiters would have stopped had they lost the Referendum then you would be deluding yourself.

As for Nick Clegg and the Lib Dems, they tempered/limited Tory policy that was heavily austerity driven through the initial agreement and subsequently. There were plenty of occasions that the Tories were howling because they were defeated due to the Lib Dems refusal to support them in Parliament. This has been amply demonstrated by the subsequent Tory Govts.

You are obsessed by the tuition fees situation. Do you realise that for a coalition to happen, both sides have to compromise to reach agreement? The Lib Dems prioritised changing the voting system instead+ and unfortunately it failed* as the system does need reform.

*Whether the best alternative was put forward is highly debatable.
+The Tories had the larger share of the agenda considering they were the bigger party.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I'll try and put it another way. A lack of acceptance about Brexit from people like Clegg, Heseltine and Starmer is frustrating because it is happening and their lack of acceptance about that is a shame. It's understandable to a point because its a very significant change from the day to day, but the complaining on the sidelines isn't doing them many favours in a highly divisive and polarised atmosphere.

They still have not moved along the below graph and are stuck at step 2 or rolling back to it. It's happening, lets make it the best we can and Make Britain Great Again. Ooops, let's just, erm, yeah, let's make it the best we can for everyone.

 

[Marked Ox]

I'll try and put it another way. A lack of acceptance about Brexit from people like Clegg, Heseltine and Starmer is frustrating because it is happening and their lack of acceptance about that is a shame. It's understandable to a point because its a very significant change from the day to day, but the complaining on the sidelines isn't doing them many favours in a highly divisive and polarised atmosphere.

They still have not moved along the below graph and are stuck at step 2 or rolling back to it. It's happening, lets make it the best we can and Make Britain Great Again. Ooops, let's just, erm, yeah, let's make it the best we can for everyone.

I agree it may be frustrating for Brexiteers but still all those Brexiteers didn't accept or move on after they lost the initial Referendum to join the Europe project. They kept chuntering on and sniping, the difference being for many years, even decades. This is no different. It doesn't make them bitter and twisted as was the original assertion.

It is a highly divisive and polarised politics at the moment and their statements won't change that for the better or worse. By your criteria, I assume you consider the comments/letters to the Press by the hard Brexiteers (such as Jacob Rees-Mogg) every time something other than hard Brexit is a possibility are on a par with Starmer, Heseltine etc? What about the Daily Mail/Daily Telegraph and their inflammatory headlines (ie. Tory MPs who voted for the recent amendment or the Judges who ruled the Govt go before Parliament with Brexit) who are picking up on language used by Hard Brexiteers such as Farage?

Likewise, those pro Europe politicians have every right to temper what they see as the worse possibilities of Brexit (by making arguments to stay in the single market for example). That is how our Parliamentary democracy works, the Govt gets challenged on its policies (and on Brexit negotiations they showing themselves to be a bit useless) whether by Opposition Parties or individual MPs.

 

[Peterdev]

I’m not against free speech as you may think.
I’m just getting tired of these old politicians telling us the electorate is wrong to have voted the way we did.
On the contrary not obsessed with tuition fees...it’s just yet another broken promise that was only made to get more votes from the 18-21 age group. Much like Corbyn did last year except then it made a difference to the Labour vote.
I think the country has become tired of voting, second general election in two years in June with a campaign lasting seven weeks.
I’m sure many of us just want the government to get on with the brexit negotiations and conclude the long lasting saga

 

[Marked Ox]

I’m not against free speech as you may think.
I’m just getting tired of these old politicians telling us the electorate is wrong to have voted the way we did.
On the contrary not obsessed with tuition fees...it’s just yet another broken promise that was only made to get more votes from the 18-21 age group. Much like Corbyn did last year except then it made a difference to the Labour vote.
I think the country has become tired of voting, second general election in two years in June with a campaign lasting seven weeks.
I’m sure many of us just want the government to get on with the brexit negotiations and conclude the long lasting saga

Did you get tired of politicians like Farage and other hard Brexiteers when they kept going on about Europe as that went on for years, decades even?

The Tories had plenty of broken promises from their manifesto as well. It would be impossible for both parties to have had their full manifesto included, so of course some commitments would be jettisoned as part of a coalition. Rightly, the Tories got a bigger slice of the agreement as they were the bigger party.

Very possibly people are tired of voting especially after May stupidly called the last GE.

I wish the Govt knew what they wanted Brexit to look like as their approach has been farcical. That should have been decided when May first took over as PM rather than at a meeting (assuming agreement was reached) a few weeks ago.

As it is, this lack of direction has led to Govt Ministers publically squabbling from the start, coupled with threats of voting against from Tory backbenchers on both sides, stupid legal challenges to stop Parliamentary oversight of the Govt actions, and Minister's making failing threats to Tory backbenchers to try to win parliamentary votes which has helped make this Govt a laughing stock.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I agree it may be frustrating for Brexiteers but still all those Brexiteers didn't accept or move on after they lost the initial Referendum to join the Europe project. They kept chuntering on and sniping, the difference being for many years, even decades. This is no different. It doesn't make them bitter and twisted as was the original assertion.

Clegg is most certainly very bitter. I feel sorry for him because he's embarrassing himself by basically firing bullets into a hurricane; Messrs Neil and Marr had some cringeworthy interviews with him in the summer. Starmer is following the Labour party message of total incoherence.

There will always be the anti Europe old codgers in the Tory party but they largely were very much laughed at for many years weren't they? No difference to the trade unionists in the Labour party, etc. I'd suggest his Tonyness laid the foundation for Brexit all those years ago. Which Farage ruthlessly exploited.

As for the Europe project, one can argue we didn't agree to where we ended up, we were largely Henry 8th'd into it. Hence some peoples frustration and desire for a vote before anything more fundamental happened.

 

[Flean]

Here's something for Baz and Pete to keep them active in retirement.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-government-slammed-over-ridiculous-11775814

 

[Marked Ox]

Clegg is most certainly very bitter. I feel sorry for him because he's embarrassing himself by basically firing bullets into a hurricane; Messrs Neil and Marr had some cringeworthy interviews with him in the summer. Starmer is following the Labour party message of total incoherence.

There will always be the anti Europe old codgers in the Tory party but they largely were very much laughed at for many years weren't they? No difference to the trade unionists in the Labour party, etc. I'd suggest his Tonyness laid the foundation for Brexit all those years ago. Which Farage ruthlessly exploited.

As for the Europe project, one can argue we didn't agree to where we ended up, we were largely Henry 8th'd into it. Hence some peoples frustration and desire for a vote before anything more fundamental happened.

Doesn't change that they are both the different sides of the same coin. Those old codgers like Tebbit or Redwood you mean who were very influential in Tory Party.

 

[Marked Ox]

Here's something for Baz and Pete to keep them active in retirement.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-government-slammed-over-ridiculous-11775814

Haha.

That is desperate.

 

[Peterdev]

The remainers are bitter because the vote was close and want a rerun.
Nick Clegg was voted out by his own constituents and his party rejected by the country as a whole

 

[Gary Baldi]

Doesn't change that they are both the different sides of the same coin. Those old codgers like Tebbit or Redwood you mean who were very influential in Tory Party.

At least the exit side took a democratic consultation eh?

John Redwood influential? He was at one point, not any more. Sir Graham Brady is one of the ones you need to put your ire on. One of the real power brokers in the Tory Westminster party and a Brexiteer.

 

[eraser]

Business will always override politics. Get the snuffling MEP's snouts out the trough and get on with it! In or Out will make no difference to anyone other than the money grabbing, unelected bureaucratics

 

[Essexyellows]

I agree it may be frustrating for Brexiteers but still all those Brexiteers didn't accept or move on after they lost the initial Referendum to join the Europe project. They kept chuntering on and sniping, the difference being for many years, even decades. This is no different. It doesn't make them bitter and twisted as was the original assertion.

Trouble is what we originally joined was the Common Market.....not some "European United States".
Even the question in `75 could be seen as misleading!
"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?"
To think how much the majority opinion has changed since then, for those old enough to remember, is rather staggering. The result then was 67%/33% or so.

 

[Flean]

B

Business will always override politics. Get the snuffling MEP's snouts out the trough and get on with it! In or Out will make no difference to anyone other than the money grabbing, unelected bureaucratics

Unelected MEP's? You could have voted (if you didn't) for your representative in the Eu parliament.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2014_(United_Kingdom)

 

[Marked Ox]

The remainers are bitter because the vote was close and want a rerun.
Nick Clegg was voted out by his own constituents and his party rejected by the country as a whole

So just repeating what you've already said with no substance then and because they have a different view to you.

Nick Clegg was a MP for many years by the way and got re-elected a fair few times.

 

[Marked Ox]

At least the exit side took a democratic consultation eh?

John Redwood influential? He was at one point, not any more. Sir Graham Brady is one of the ones you need to put your ire on. One of the real power brokers in the Tory Westminster party and a Brexiteer.

John Redwood was still involved as a co-Chairman of the Tory Party policy review committee and a vocal advocate for 'Leave means Leave' pressure group.

Tebbit is still involved via the influential Tory think-tank Bow Group who have this weekend issued a press release of 10 demands that the Govt must follow with regards Brexit.

They're not bitter or twisted at all or interfering just like those bitter remainers.

 

[Marked Ox]

Trouble is what we originally joined was the Common Market.....not some "European United States".
Even the question in `75 could be seen as misleading!
"Do you think that the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?"
To think how much the majority opinion has changed since then, for those old enough to remember, is rather staggering. The result then was 67%/33% or so.

Oh, I understand why the Brexiteers felt as they did. I disagree but understand their viewpoint.

My point here is that neither side of the argument is 'bitter and twisted' for promoting their viewpoint as was the assertion made by Peterdev about remainers for pushing forward their viewpoint.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Nick Clegg is bitter and twisted. I genuinely feel sorry for the man because he cannot accept the result. Anna Soubry is another, Ken Clarke is another and Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are another. Sad really.

And if the vote was the other way, I'd be quite happily telling idiots like Farage to shut their mouths and accept the will of the people.

 

[Marked Ox]

Nick Clegg is bitter and twisted. I genuinely feel sorry for the man because he cannot accept the result. Anna Soubry is another, Ken Clarke is another and Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are another. Sad really.

And if the vote was the other way, I'd be quite happily telling idiots like Farage to shut their mouths and accept the will of the people.

Are you telling the likes of Farage, the Bow Group, Jacob Rees-Mogg etc to shut their mouths every time they run crying to the Daily Mail/Telegraph when something even slightly deviates from Hard Brexit?