National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[RyanioBirdio]

Had some awesome meetings today where a number of businesses, including mine, all sat and shrugged at each other and basically went “Nobody knows what is going to happen, because none of us even know what Brexit means logistically”. Business is ready to leave, they say. Get ready for Brexit, they tell us. We can’t - how many times do we have to say it? It’s absolutely impossible to plan for something that doesn’t exist, has never occurred before, and that they can’t even tell us which version we’ll be confronted with. We are meant to be leaving in exactly three weeks, and they can’t even say whether we are going to leave with or without a deal, nor what either one of those things ACTUALLY means. We don’t know what the deal would be and so we can’t plan for the effects of it, and we can’t plan for no deal because NOBODY can plan for no deal.

Over £100million has been spent on this bullshit Get Ready For Brexit campaign and it’s a total sham. It is impossible to prepare for. It’s just an expensive exercise in flexing and pot-stirring. We are in such a mess.

 

[Scotchegg]

No I`m saying their policy is the polar opposite to what the people voted for in , to quote the leaflet that went to every home, "a once in a lifetime opportunity" and the same leaflet that said "The Government will implement your decision".

You can argue semantics about "how many voted" , everyone had the same opportunity, of course the "establishment" thought it would be a walk in the park...

Suffice to say about the Lib "Dems" ............................. A: They will never get into power. B: 17.4 million will never vote for them.

I honestly don't understand the anger towards the Lib Dems. At the last general election all major parties, and therefore 90% of sitting MP's were elected on the back of a commitment to honour the referendum. Since then, we have seen politicians from all parties and both sides of the debate going against this.

The Lib Dems have tied their colours to the remain mast this time round, and that is entirely their choice. If they will never get in power then it's entirely irrelevant. However, if the 16 odd million who voted to remain all vote for them in a GE then they could very well be in Government in a mandate to cancel Brexit.

On the opposite side, we have the Brexit party saying that they'll campaign for a no deal exit. If the 17.4 million leavers all vote for them, then they will have the power to impose their policy.

The real argument for those demanding democracy should be with Labour who have no policy, or the Tories who have no control over their MP's to uphold any policy!

 

[Essexyellows]

This is the European Election where Brexit Party + Conservatives + UKIP + DUP (i.e. the No Deal supporting parties) won about 45% of the vote, and 47% of the seats?

And Lib Dems + Labour + Greens + Nationalist + Change UK (i.e. the parties that are against No Deal) won about 54% of the vote, and 52% if the seats?

[doesn't add up to 100% because I don't know the Brexit position of the other ~1% of minority parties]


That's the election that we're supposed to view as a reinforcement of the electorate's wishes?

You know the Brexit position of the Labour party??
Apart from not wanting "No Deal" on the table what do they propose?
And that is a fair old chunk of your mathematics gone out the window.

 

[Essexyellows]

I honestly don't understand the anger towards the Lib Dems. At the last general election all major parties, and therefore 90% of sitting MP's were elected on the back of a commitment to honour the referendum. Since then, we have seen politicians from all parties and both sides of the debate going against this.

The Lib Dems have tied their colours to the remain mast this time round, and that is entirely their choice. If they will never get in power then it's entirely irrelevant. However, if the 16 odd million who voted to remain all vote for them in a GE then they could very well be in Government in a mandate to cancel Brexit.

On the opposite side, we have the Brexit party saying that they'll campaign for a no deal exit. If the 17.4 million leavers all vote for them, then they will have the power to impose their policy.

The real argument for those demanding democracy should be with Labour who have no policy, or the Tories who have no control over their MP's to uphold any policy!

And there in lies the issue with converting a polar referendum question into a GE.

Labour, Tory et al voters will have had a different views on the referendum be it Leave or Remain. Remember lots of "safe" Labour seats voted to Leave and vice versa.

When it comes to a GE we should be voting on who manages "UK PLC" for the benefit of the nation. Taxation, Education, NHS, etc etc.

Keep it as two seperate issues and the clarity will appear once one job is done.

 

[Peterdev]

The LDs are only seeking to gain power by nailing their support to remain.
Who can blame them for doing that, as they would really struggle otherwise

 

[Scotchegg]

And there in lies the issue with converting a polar referendum question into a GE.

Labour, Tory et al voters will have had a different views on the referendum be it Leave or Remain. Remember lots of "safe" Labour seats voted to Leave and vice versa.

When it comes to a GE we should be voting on who manages "UK PLC" for the benefit of the nation. Taxation, Education, NHS, etc etc.

Keep it as two seperate issues and the clarity will appear once one job is done.

But any GE before leaving the EU will of course include Brexit, especially as all the things mentioned, taxation, education, NHS, etc are entirely linked. The whole debate about Brexit was about independent decision making and spending money at home rather than across europe. This goes from the buses and the £300m to the NHS, and Boris talking of huge investment once we complete Brexit. It is impossible to separate Brexit and domestic policy.

So, if we go into that election with 17.4m leavers, plus all those who have joined that side of the debate, and they vote in the numbers that did in the referendum then the Lib Dems are pretty much wiped out. However, if those who voted remain all give them their vote then they could be a serious force to be reckoned with come the GE. That is the gamble they're taking and it is, at the least, a clear policy direction that few others have.

 

[SteMerritt]

The LDs are only seeking to gain power by nailing their support to remain.
Who can blame them for doing that, as they would really struggle otherwise

I think they've been pretty consistently remain since the beginning.

 

[Essexyellows]

@Scotchegg I`ll agree separating the two issues is virtually impossible.
However kicking the can on one adversely impacts the other..... one has to be resolved/dealt with to provide the clarity for the other.
That`s not just here either , Ireland have had to add a contingency 1.2 billion euro`s "in case", money they could have spent elsewhere.

 

[Scotchegg]

I agree. But you could argue that a GE that puts a clear majority in power with a mandate to leave or remain would resolve the issue. There has been too much indecision on all sides and it needs a conclusion, but it still needs to be right. Sadly I've not yet been convinced that anyone truly knows what they actually want as an end product, so we'll bounce around for another few weeks/months/years(?) yet I guess!!

 

[RyanioBirdio]

More waffle about investment in Britain pouring in after Brexit on the radio today.

Here’s the thing - yes, that would happen. But do we know why? Because if the currency collapses, and our business begin to struggle and our house prices drop like a stone, everything is cheaper for foreign investment to scoop up. The entire country basically becomes one enormous store with huge discounts available on everything. So this great wave of investment will be held up as proof that Brexit is the saviour, but it’s actually just a fire sale where all the silly foreigners (and we hate them, don’t we) are swooping in to buy our property and our companies for far less than they were worth previously. The reason the likes of good old JR-M had his portfolio firm open new branches in Dublin is because a no deal Brexit will short the currency, and people can actually move their personal wealth and assets across, wait for them collapse and then move it back the second the economy crashes. If you took all of your personal savings, swapped them from pounds to another currency, and then swapped it back into pounds after it positively collapsed, you’d make money. The amount of pounds you had would go up. Now imagine doing that with millions, or even billions of pounds.

This is why certain people want no deal. A deal would minimise the economic impact - it would be bruised and bloodied but it would soldier on. The corner could patch it up. Knock it down, though, and there’s a gold rush as rich people dump the currency and then join foreign investment in picking up property and business on the cheap, which will be presented as an economic windfall and a stoke of genius while it’s actually just vultures arriving to pick at the corpses.

Unless you’re a millionaire, no deal isn’t going to benefit you. If you want no deal and you’re a regular, normal person, well... I don’t want to say you’re stupid, but... you aren’t very clever.

 

[Sharp Edges]

You know the Brexit position of the Labour party??
Apart from not wanting "No Deal" on the table what do they propose?
And that is a fair old chunk of your mathematics gone out the window.

Exactly this, the labour party manifesto stated they would honour the result of the referendum. How strange that some decide they were remain voters....

 

[Marked Ox]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1182595006382645249

Claims of economic impact on Johnson's alledged deal.

 

[tonyw]

You know the Brexit position of the Labour party??
Apart from not wanting "No Deal" on the table what do they propose?
And that is a fair old chunk of your mathematics gone out the window.

As you say, we know that Labour is against No Deal, but that's about the only thing they're consistent on. So therefore if you voted Labour in the European elections, you were voting against a No Deal Brexit - putting you in the majority of voters at that election.
Or are you saying that Labour voters didn't know that they were voting against a No Deal Brexit in the European elections? That sounds suspiciously like another referendum argument I've seen around here a few times...….

I`ll agree separating the two issues is virtually impossible.
However kicking the can on one adversely impacts the other..... one has to be resolved/dealt with to provide the clarity for the other.

I think we're getting to the crux of why referendums are a terrible idea in general in the UK.
Because we've seen what happens when the results of a parliamentary election and a referendum end up in opposition - it's been three years of paralysis.
Either the referendum needs to be legally binding and highly specific (like a Swiss referendum - and we all know the 2016 referendum wasn't), or you have to accept that General Elections supercede referendums, and the recourse to a situation where parliament ignores the expressed will of the people is to either elect a new parliament that will respect it (what I'm proposing we test) or accept their judgement and carry on......in which case, the referendum is a pretty pointless and expensive exercise.

 

[MarkG]

More waffle about investment in Britain pouring in after Brexit on the radio today.

Here’s the thing - yes, that would happen. But do we know why? Because if the currency collapses, and our business begin to struggle and our house prices drop like a stone, everything is cheaper for foreign investment to scoop up. The entire country basically becomes one enormous store with huge discounts available on everything. So this great wave of investment will be held up as proof that Brexit is the saviour, but it’s actually just a fire sale where all the silly foreigners (and we hate them, don’t we) are swooping in to buy our property and our companies for far less than they were worth previously. The reason the likes of good old JR-M had his portfolio firm open new branches in Dublin is because a no deal Brexit will short the currency, and people can actually move their personal wealth and assets across, wait for them collapse and then move it back the second the economy crashes. If you took all of your personal savings, swapped them from pounds to another currency, and then swapped it back into pounds after it positively collapsed, you’d make money. The amount of pounds you had would go up. Now imagine doing that with millions, or even billions of pounds.

This is why certain people want no deal. A deal would minimise the economic impact - it would be bruised and bloodied but it would soldier on. The corner could patch it up. Knock it down, though, and there’s a gold rush as rich people dump the currency and then join foreign investment in picking up property and business on the cheap, which will be presented as an economic windfall and a stoke of genius while it’s actually just vultures arriving to pick at the corpses.

Unless you’re a millionaire, no deal isn’t going to benefit you. If you want no deal and you’re a regular, normal person, well... I don’t want to say you’re stupid, but... you aren’t very clever.

JRM will have opened an Ireland office so the funds his company runs are still In the EU and covered by EU fund regulation and can be sold in Europe when we brexit . I’ve no idea what you mean about moving money and assets across to Ireland and back again.

Though there has been a bit of cherry picking by for instance one of the uk breweries / pub cos was bought out by a Hong Kong firm recently presumably due to the pound being very weak historically.

 

[YellowTaxi]

Labour’s position is to negotiate the best deal that protects workers rights and the environment then put that to the people in a second referendum.

Not difficult, really.

What’s Johnson’s position? Seems to change every five minutes.

 

[oxford1985]

So the Queen has now firmly nailed her colours to the Leave mast. Didn't catch it all, but during her speech in parliament today I'm sure she said leaving the EU was a priority of hers.

Hopefully the few Remoaners who are left will now shut up and obey our monarch.

It is written by ministers but it is delivered by the Queen from the throne of the House of Lords. ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32816450)

 

[Sarge]

thatchers id cards by stealth? ... included in the tory party election broadcast queens speech , for voters to be eligible to cast a vote in future elections, photo id will be required


homeless people, an estimated 350,000, excluded already , now this ridiculous bollox .... why not restrict voting to only anyone with a title and be done with it?

Government announces plan to prevent UK citizens voting without photo ID

‘There is no evidence’ to justify new scheme, expert says, as Labour accuses Johnson of attempting to rig the next general election

www.independent.co.uk

 

[oxford1985]

homeless people, an estimated 350,000, excluded already , now this ridiculous bollox .... why not restrict voting to only anyone with a title and be done with it?

not really, not all the approx 350,000 homeless people dont have ID surely?

 

[Sarge]

not really, not all the approx 350,000 homeless people dont have ID surely?

as they have no address, therefore theyre not registered to vote ( with or without photo ID )

 

[oxford1985]

as they have no address, therefore theyre not registered to vote ( with or without photo ID )

homeless people can still vote: https://www.crisis.org.uk/get-help/...s/how-to-register-to-vote-if-you-re-homeless/