National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Gary Baldi]

Again they are not doing the same thing as the MP as has been amply explained.

Those politicians are trying to protect their own country's interest as external players whilst the MP was trying to SUBVERT Parliament as a MEMBER of Parliament from the inside.

To simplify it further he was being a traitor to Parliament, those external Politicians aren't part of our parliament.

That is why your continued raising of foreign politicians is a "whataboutism" otherwise a deflection. It is your response to the original point that is the "whataboutism".

Is the Tory MP (born in Poland BTW) in a naive and illegitimate manner not protecting both of his countries interests? I agree about whataboutism, because in a microcosm, it highlights the complete lack of consistency from people like yourself - not a deflection, but an interest in where your anger stops. I will say again, the Tory MP was wrong, but I also think Leo Varadkar asking Sinn Fein to vote on Brexit matters is too. Do you? Or Macron forcing no deal on the UK over fishing rights?

Calling him a traitor is a bit much though.

 

[Marked Ox]

Is the Tory MP (born in Poland BTW) in a naive and illegitimate manner not protecting both of his countries interests? I agree about whataboutism, because in a microcosm, it highlights the complete lack of consistency from people like yourself - not a deflection, but an interest in where your anger stops. I will say again, the Tory MP was wrong, but I also think Leo Varadkar asking Sinn Fein to vote on Brexit matters is too. Do you? Or Macron forcing no deal on the UK over fishing rights?

Calling him a traitor is a bit much though.

You are doing the "ooh look, it is a squirrel" routine again with Leo Varadkar this time. It is a clear deflection as Leo Varadkar isn't an MP in our parliament so doesn't have a vote. Yet his country could be very significantly affected depending on how Brexit turns out.

What can't you get about an MP trying to subvert a democratic institution he was elected to, not being comparable to a foreign leader/politician making comment about Brexit.

He, AS an MP, was deliberately trying to undermine/circumvent the very basis that our parliament/democracy operates by. And the one thing you can't accuse this MP of is being naive, he knew exactly what he was doing and the implications.

 

[Sharp Edges]

We aren't being investigated by the police for illegally overspending during the Ref.

Ones a proven lie, one isnt. Whats your point?

 

[YellowTaxi]

This is constantly trotted out, but it isn't entirely accurate. The UK is still the world's 8th or so largest manufacturer. What is true is that it is a much smaller proportion of our GDP. And how Brexit will affect it is anyone's guess.

Just thought I'd point that out.


https://www.worldatlas.com/articles...-highest-industrial-outputs-in-the-world.html
http://www.madeherenow.com/news/pos...moves-up-the-world-manufacturing-league-table
https://blog.gesrepair.com/top-10-manufacturing-countries/
http://www.cityam.com/272260/debate-new-franco-german-pact-help-heal-eus-divisions

What was it before Thatcher arrived. and it's noit anyone's guess. The cast majority of industrialists and ecominsts have saidd it will get worse. the economy is already 2 percent lower than expected. But Boris Johnson and David Davis are confident - and a msn who owns a lot of pubs

 

[YellowTaxi]

Ones a proven lie, one isnt. Whats your point?

I understand that you support a movement that relies on proven lies since it has nothing else. The rest of us (and our children and grandchildren) are going to have to live withe the consequences.

 

[Gary Baldi]

You are doing the "ooh look, it is a squirrel" routine again with Leo Varadkar this time. It is a clear deflection as Leo Varadkar isn't an MP in our parliament so doesn't have a vote. Yet his country could be very significantly affected depending on how Brexit turns out.

What can't you get about an MP trying to subvert a democratic institution he was elected to, not being comparable to a foreign leader/politician making comment about Brexit.

He, AS an MP, was deliberately trying to undermine/circumvent the very basis that our parliament/democracy operates by. And the one thing you can't accuse this MP of is being naive, he knew exactly what he was doing and the implications.

Thanks. I got what I was looking for!

 

[Gary Baldi]

I understand that you support a movement that relies on proven lies since it has nothing else. The rest of us (and our children and grandchildren) are going to have to live withe the consequences.

In all honesty, both sides lied in that referendum. Once Project Fear got going, it let the lunatics out of the asylum, but in today's world of headlines with a lie being more shared than the later retraction, it's where our future will be. If an article get 40k likes/shares, whatever is in it, has done it's job. That is where Farage and the UKIP social media team got it right - they utilised certain imagery that hit a core message. Something Corbyn and Labour are adept at too.

Until Social Media companies have an unbiased charter and the media, like with a recent incident in the US, continue to rush to publish rather than rush to fact check, we'll get lies and the truth is a just sad byproduct.

As for Arron Banks, I trust the authorities will get to the meat of it, but my gut feeling is nothing big will come out of it either way.

 

[Marked Ox]

Thanks. I got what I was looking for!

I glad you finally got something then as it took long enough.

 

[FalmouthOx]

if we stop being in a customs union with the EU we become their competitors. They would be failing in their duty if they gave us a good deal and helped us out. That's what you do with the people who are members of the club, not with people who pick fights at the bar and puke all over the carpet. (or even worse send David Davis to negotiate.)

Once we're out, and wanting to compete - they have every reason to take us down in as ruthless way as possible. and as Margaret Thatcher destroyed most of our manufacturing industry and pissed away our oil all we have is trade. And we don't seem to be much good at that, since that involves being trusted and keeping your word. The latest negotating strategy appears to be to take back a deal we signed 13 months ago. What else have we got to offer? . Oh yes I forgot we can send Prince Andrew. That should sort things out.

Huh? the EU would pay us more in tariffs (windfall for government) than we would be charged - hypothetically if the goods go up in price by 15% because UK charges EU a 15% tariff, the government can pass this back to us either through subsidies or income tax breaks. Just need to be creative and juggle pots so no net net change - we could probably produce the goods we export to the EU at least 15% cheaper by sourcing more components from Asia/outside EU. In fact we would have to do this or we are not competitive there (if they tax our exports 15%). They really don't want to get into a tariff war with us. It will just highlight how ridiculously expensive and globally uncompetitive our/EU goods currently are. We can only sell goods between ourselves. The beast consumes only itself and never evolves. Protectionism sucks - but being an EU supplier or manufacturer means forgoing participation on a global stage.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I glad you finally got something then as it took long enough.

Oh I did, but not what you think

 

[YellowTaxi]

Yes the

Huh? the EU would pay us more in tariffs (windfall for government) than we would be charged - hypothetically if the goods go up in price by 15% because UK charges EU a 15% tariff, the government can pass this back to us either through subsidies or income tax breaks. Just need to be creative and juggle pots so no net net change - we could probably produce the goods we export to the EU at least 15% cheaper by sourcing more components from Asia/outside EU. In fact we would have to do this or we are not competitive there (if they tax our exports 15%). They really don't want to get into a tariff war with us. It will just highlight how ridiculously expensive and globally uncompetitive our/EU goods currently are. We can only sell goods between ourselves. The beast consumes only itself and never evolves. Protectionism sucks - but being an EU supplier or manufacturer means forgoing participation on a global stage.

Crystal clear.

 

[Marked Ox]

Oh I did, but not what you think

Good for you.

 

[Briggsy]

What was it before Thatcher arrived. and it's noit anyone's guess. The cast majority of industrialists and ecominsts have saidd it will get worse. the economy is already 2 percent lower than expected. But Boris Johnson and David Davis are confident - and a msn who owns a lot of pubs

I'm not arguing your basic point, I'm just trying to correct this myth that the UK isn't a major manufacturer any more. It annoys me. As do people who say that Britain is a 'small island'. It isn't. It's the 9th largest in the world.

I'm just being pedantic, though. Feel free to ignore me.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Good for you.

Thanks! Appreciate it.

It looks to be an important day in Parliament today with Brexit. Lots going on and some interesting developments of the Malthouse thingy.

 

[m]

Baldi! Marked!

Desist!

For your own sakes!

 

[Gary Baldi]

Baldi! Marked!

Desist!

For your own sakes!

Nah. I have to have the last word in all matters

Just kidding!

 

[Marked Ox]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47036119

Those Brexit opportunities outside the EU are looking good if the US play hard ball. Lower food standards, higher Drug costs (for US pharmaceuticals) and no action on taxing US technology companies like Amazon, Google etc all possible.

 

[tonyw]

Huh? the EU would pay us more in tariffs (windfall for government) than we would be charged - hypothetically if the goods go up in price by 15% because UK charges EU a 15% tariff, the government can pass this back to us either through subsidies or income tax breaks. Just need to be creative and juggle pots so no net net change - we could probably produce the goods we export to the EU at least 15% cheaper by sourcing more components from Asia/outside EU. In fact we would have to do this or we are not competitive there (if they tax our exports 15%). They really don't want to get into a tariff war with us. It will just highlight how ridiculously expensive and globally uncompetitive our/EU goods currently are. We can only sell goods between ourselves. The beast consumes only itself and never evolves. Protectionism sucks - but being an EU supplier or manufacturer means forgoing participation on a global stage.

Seriously, regardless of whether Brexit happens or not - I see no way that Britain ever becomes a global leader in manufacturing again.
We can't compete on natural resources, and we can't compete on labour.....there is no way that Britain's workforce is going to revert to accepting pay and conditions that are equivalent to competitors like India & China.
In certain industries, where we have an edge in technical expertise and IP development, then we do and will continue to have a shot - but nothing that's become commoditised.

Britain's economy is variously reported as 70-80% services, and has been 70%+ for a couple of decades now. Financial, Technical, Creative, Educational, Tourism etc. etc.
The real key to Britain's economic health post-Brexit, whatever form that may take, is ensuring that Britain's ability to provide services to other countries is not restricted. Which is going to depend on appropriate trade deals being put in place, and therefore in turn on our politicians' and civil services' ability to negotiate those deals at an expedited pace. Problems there.

 

[tonyw]

So some progress today at least. Seems like MPs will vote for May's deal if the backstop is removed and replaced with 'alternative arrangements'.

Course, they've been talking with the EU for the best part of two years and haven't been able to agree on any other alternative arrangements......
Maybe the ticking clock in the background will inspire some new creativity.

 

[Gary Baldi]

The Brady amendment could be the thing that breaks open the backstop issue. And the most important thing is, it signals to the EU that the UK parliament agreed on it, so it's something they can take seriously.