National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 51 29.1%
  • No Deal

    Votes: 77 44.0%
  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 37 21.1%

  • Total voters
    175
Sorry. No. 37% of the people registered to vote voted out. Less than one-third of the population.
 
Sorry. No. 37% of the people registered to vote voted out. Less than one-third of the population.
correct @PC .....I should've 'said'... of those who actually bothered to cast a vote.... 52% voted out, 48% voted to stay etc ;)
 
I know numerous people who didn't bother to vote in the referendum, a few of whom have spent the time since moaning about Brexit and its supporters, while others still don't care either way. As far as I'm concerned, the non-voters are as much to 'blame' for the result as anybody who happened to vote to leave.

For what my opinion is worth, which is basically nothing but hey ho, everybody should have been made to get off their a**e and turn out. Even people saying they didn't vote because they didn't have all of the information should probably have adopted the mentality of "If I can't reason why changing would be a good thing, then remaining as we are is logically the better option." That's ultimately what this was a question of: do you think that changing everything about how this country functions for decades to come, if not forever, is a good thing? If the answer was anything less than "yes I do" then it was up to those people to vote to remain. They didn't, so either they gambled that it would be okay and lost, or simply didn't care to begin with.

Either way, the non-voters argument being wheeled out for statistical purposes is a bit of a shambles. Nobody actually knows how those people would have voted had they been forced to. It's a waste of time. Whatever percentage of the population people want to claim actually voted to leave, the percentage that actively voted to remain was even smaller. You can't have it as simply 'leave' versus 'everybody else' if you're interested in fair and reasonable statistics, because that is to assume that 'everybody else' automatically means 'remain'. That's the thing about stats - you can pretty much make them say whatever you like.

Perhaps in the future we as a nation won't be so damn apathetic towards voting. If nothing else, whatever the outcome was would at least be categorically the will of the entire country and we could all shut up about trying to prove who really thinks what.
 
Difficult to put this politely, but there's a lot of stuff there that frankly isn't true.

I want us to be in control of everything, from controlling our borders, who can come in, and who can’t.

Immigration was already largely in the hands of the UK government. Immigration from outside the EU is higher than from within (and we have complete control over non-EU immigration) and we didn't even use the controls on EU immigration that we could have done (EU immigrants can be removed after 6 months if they can't support themselves). Tony Blair could have limited the amount of immigration from Eastern Europe when they joined the EU, but he didn't. Theresa May chose to cut the border forces.

Rightly or wrongly, the government accepts immigration as an economic necessity. Brexit won't change that.

I don’t want people coming here in uncontrollable numbers, it driven the wages down for a number of occupations. People have had enough of it, for the foreign workers it’s brilliant money. But 9/10 the money they make doesn’t stay within, which is bad for our economy.

The numbers weren't "uncontrollable", for the reasons listed above (we have controls; we just didn't use them - blame your own government for that) and researchers found that immigration has very little impact on wages. It's not guaranteed that Brexit will reduce immigration. Where does your 9/10 stat come from, or did you make it up? I'm sure I read that EU workers are generally net contributors to the UK economy.

Then you have Mrs Merkel saying to these East Europeans, and North Africans. “ Yes please we want you to come here

Merkel's emergency policy applied to Syrian refugees. Syria is in Asia, not in Eastern Europe or Africa. Look up what Angela Merkel actually said, not what you think she said.

The main thing for me was, having to do what these unelected people told us to do. That will all stop now, and thank god!

No it won't. You will have no say in the trade negotiations, and other countries (who have far more clout than we do) will drive hard bargains with nasty secret dispute resolution systems over which we'll have absolutely no democratic input. If we want to trade with the EU we'll still have to follow their rules (we just won't have any influence on them any more). Oh, and the EU isn't "unelected". You didn't vote for Juncker, but nor did you vote for Theresa May or David Davis or Oliver Robbins. And you're massively exaggerating the EU's power and influence. Bet you can't name a rule that the EU imposes on you, and most of it will be carbon-copied into British law anyway. Most of it is dull, low-level product regulation, it isn't anything that matters.

We don’t need to worry about having a no deal. They will want to make trades with us, more than we will to them.

Wow. That was a dodgy assumption two years ago, and it's certainly not looking good now. True, the EU won't want to lose the UK's trade but the idea that they need us more than we need them is frankly away with the fairies. Did you not know that 8% of the EU's trade was with the UK in 2016, whereas 44% of ours went the other way (figures vary, but nobody disputes the imbalance)? That doesn't sound to me like we have the upper hand - they can make up 8% a lot more easily than we can find 44%, and they're a lot bigger to share the hit.

What makes me laugh is these idiots calling for a second referendum. Forget it! It was a massive turnout of voters, and frankly it would be shambolic and laughable to have a second vote.

I'm not sure about a second referendum either, but I don't think it's as idiotic as you make out. 51.9 to 48.1 isn't "massive" - it's equivalent to winning 17-16 on penalties. Most polls suggest that there is already a majority in favour of remaining (yeah, I know, you don't believe the polls...but what have you got instead?). Do we have to do something that the majority no longer want? Does Brexit last forever, regardless if the majority have changed their minds?

Mr Corbyn can try as much as he likes for a General Election, the thing is he is such a clown he will put us straight back into the EU. Thankfully he and his Labour Party will not be in power for Some considerable time.

Given that Corbyn has been a long-term critic of the EU and seems very lukewarm about a second referendum, I'm not sure you're right about that either. You might be passionate about leaving the EU, but you seem to forget that (at least) 48% - and probably rising - think it's a bad idea, so it's not the electoral poison that you think it is. Labour don't need a big swing to get into power (May's majority is tiny) and it may be Tory failure rather than Labour appeal that makes the difference. I'm not keen on Corbyn but if he committed to stopping Brexit I'd be more likely to vote for him. Plenty of people will vote Labour regardless, out of habit, and you can't just ignore Remainers - we have a vote too. You're making the mistake of thinking that everybody thinks the same as you. I'm a strong Remainer - as you may have gathered - and I guess you're passionately the other way...but there's a big lump of unconvinced people in the middle who voted Leave for a laugh or because they didn't like Cameron or whatever, and then there's all the "don't knows". Brexit is already looking more than dodgy as the Leavers' easy promises dissolve one by one (where's the "easy deal" and all that dosh for the NHS?), and it doesn't take much to shift floating voters.
 
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Either way, the non-voters argument being wheeled out for statistical purposes is a bit of a shambles. Nobody actually knows how those people would have voted had they been forced to. It's a waste of time. Whatever percentage of the population people want to claim actually voted to leave, the percentage that actively voted to remain was even smaller. You can't have it as simply 'leave' versus 'everybody else' if you're interested in fair and reasonable statistics, because that is to assume that 'everybody else' automatically means 'remain'. That's the thing about stats - you can pretty much make them say whatever you like.

I actually agree with this, though I'm a staunch Remainer. We lost. Not by much, and I think the balance has shifted, but the don't knows are just that. We don't get to count them as closet Remainers.
 
If Remain won, then we would never have had this talk of a second vote. I’m glad Mrs May has said no to that straight away. I do wonder at times if she is the right person to be prime minister and leader of the Conservative Party. She was a remainer, but she’s followed through quite well considering. Shes
Lost a few members of the party, but all in all she’s doing ok. But just ok.

If May is doing OK, I'd love to know what doing badly looks like!?!

We're more than two years on from her becoming Prime Minister, and eighteen months on from invoking Article 50.

And what we have on the table is a deal that the EU won't accept, that backbenchers in May's own party won't accept and which the Labour party won't accept - in other words, we don't have a deal with the EU and even if they suddenly panicked and changed their minds, our MPs would vote it down.

She has consistently tried to chart a middle course between those (including most corporate interests) that want Britain to remain as close as possible to the single market, and those who want a clean break - but the fact is that such middle ground, if it even exists, makes absolutely noone happy. Or is a "Cake and Eat It" approach that the EU will never agree to.

If she was a leader, she would actually step up and make a decision - which at this point is likely a choice between something similar to the Norway model (EU laws, Free movement, Access to single market) or the Canada model (Control of borders, some regulatory alignment, zero tariffs, an Irish border). It would P**s off half the electorate, but at least we'd be able to move forward and plan for the consequences.

Instead she continues to dither and whine and leave us getting closer and closer to March - at which point, it's either a No Deal Brexit that we haven't prepared for, or a last-minute extension to keep the circus going for another year or two.
 
You're still not answering the question. I know you don't think Brexit will be harmful (I hope you're right, but most of the experts disagree with you).

1.My question is, how bad does it have to get for you to change your mind? If the planes did start falling out of the sky (nobody ever said that, by the way, but if they did), would you still insist on the "will of the people", even though it had been shown to be wrong, and was no longer the majority view?

2.Name a regulation that bothers you. In my industry, GDPR is a bit of a pain in the a**e, but it's not that onerous - particularly if you aren't doing unreasonable things with your customers' data - and it's certainly not unnecessary (and it's in the public's interest). Besides, the UK will have to impose equivalent regulations in many areas anyway. I don't want a bonfire of regulations that will mean companies can do whatever they like, thanks all the same.

Point 1. We haven`t left yet, we have voted to leave so leave we must.
In my world (ex-Article 50) we should have departed the EU the day after the votes were counted.
Sadly Article 50 "puts the brakes" on the process to create years of argument & debate.
It should have been as simple as Vote- Leave- Adopt any EU Legislation on to our books and review at OUR leisure. Boot on other foot.

Point 2. OJEU. It is supposed to make public procurement transparent which it does (due credit), however it excludes small/medium businesses almost by default due to the burden of systems, forms and hoops to jump through. It creates a Financial burden........... In our hospital trust there are at least 25 well paid (Band 6 and above) people looking after systems, audit trails and "ticking OJEU forms".

General point.......... if HMG adopted a more French attitude to EU Regs (ergo they choose what suits them, we just take it all as written) then the population wouldn`t feel so burdened by the bureaucracy.

Democracy in the EU................. Rory Palmer, our "elected MEP", was not elected by the electorate, in fact he wasn`t even selected by the Labour Party.................. Glenis Willmot was in 2014 & was duly elected, I have no issue with that, fair vote.....majority WON.
However we got Rory as he was "shoed in" from his Deputy Mayor position in 2017 after Glenis stepped down........ EU democracy right there.

:)
 
In my world (ex-Article 50) we should have departed the EU the day after the votes were counted. Sadly Article 50 "puts the brakes" on the process to create years of argument & debate. It should have been as simple as Vote- Leave- Adopt any EU Legislation on to our books and review at OUR leisure. Boot on other foot.

All that would be fine (if completely impractical in the real world and in breach of international law, which of course are mere trivialities in the Brexit imagination) if we weren't at the same time depending on securing a trade deal with the EU. A trade deal that the Leavers told us would be easy because they "need us more than we need them". How's that playing out? "No deal" is a disaster - even some of the saner Leave organisations acknowledge that.

Point 2. OJEU. It is supposed to make public procurement transparent which it does (due credit), however it excludes small/medium businesses almost by default due to the burden of systems, forms and hoops to jump through. It creates a Financial burden........... In our hospital trust there are at least 25 well paid (Band 6 and above) people looking after systems, audit trails and "ticking OJEU forms".

Fair enough. But I dare say the system will be replaced by something else - if you think life under bilateral trade deals and the WTO is going to be frictionless and bureaucracy-free, I think you're in for an unpleasant surprise. And I suspect you're hiding quite a lot of good old-fashioned British bureaucracy in the mountain of form-filling that your box-tickers are engaged in.

General point.......... if HMG adopted a more French attitude to EU Regs (ergo they choose what suits them, we just take it all as written) then the population wouldn`t feel so burdened by the bureaucracy.

This idea that we slavishly follow all the rules while the pernicious French do what they like is only true in Brexiters' imaginations. Unless of course you have some sound evidence that the French make it up as they go along while poor honest Britain meticulously observes the spirit and letter of EU law. Except when we don't. Time and time again.

And I'm amused that you're so offended by France's alleged disregard for the rules, but you want us to walk away without observing the terms of Article 50.

Democracy in the EU................. Rory Palmer, our "elected MEP", was not elected by the electorate, in fact he wasn`t even selected by the Labour Party.................. Glenis Willmot was in 2014 & was duly elected, I have no issue with that, fair vote.....majority WON.
However we got Rory as he was "shoed in" from his Deputy Mayor position in 2017 after Glenis stepped down........ EU democracy right there.:)

So maybe there isn't a mechanism for by-elections in the EU Parliament (happy to acknowledge that I didn't know that) but I think your indignation is a bit misplaced:
  • There are equivalent scenarios in British politics (Shaun Woodward crossed from Tory to Labour without a by-election in Witney; party favourites get helicoptered into safe seats and FPTP sees them safely home).
  • It's not entirely undemocratic. A quick Google suggests that the stand-in was automatically the guy who came second, so I think your claim that he was "not elected by the electorate" is a bit wide of the mark. No rules appear to have been broken, it's just a different system to what we're used to. As for "he wasn't even selected by the Labour Party" I don't know what you mean.
  • It's only temporary. You can vote him out in 2019. Oh, except you can't because your vote for democracy has taken away our voice in Europe, though we will still have to follow many of their rules (because, ignoring Brexiters' magic fantasies for one second, we rely on the EU's trade and that's the way the world works)
 
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45673214 Simple. :):)

Palmer stood as a candidate to be MEP but lost the Labour Party members vote to Glenis Willmot.
Willmot (not Palmer) was the person on the ballot paper that got elected.

Your quotes/links show both sides, the intervention of the EU/ECJ in our affairs and the claimants "winning" on the basis of EU "Law". Has it actually changed anything or only justified the existence of the EU leech?

As a trading nation we will negotiate a deal, its how business works and Business/££££££`s wins over everything.

The fear/concern displayed by those who don`t want change is what holds us back from making bold decisions.

BTW the OJEU regulations will be adopted into UK Law until such a time as they get reviewed................... I`ll be retired by then. :)
 
The way I see it is I suspect far too simplistic.:)

We’re either fully in the EU or fully out. You either believe in a federal United States of Europe or you don’t.

The Chequers agreement appears (to my limited understanding) to be a huge fudge but probably favours the EU rather more than the UK. We now know that the former Brexit Secretary David Davis was totally undermined by No.10, but this shouldn’t be a surprise as the two most important and powerful people in the Government (PM & Chancellor) are both remainers.

I suspect eventually a way will be found for another referendum (it will just be called something else) and the EU commission/UK political elite will not be so complacent and arrogant this time. They will then get the ‘correct’ vote.
 
The way I see it is I suspect far too simplistic.:)

We’re either fully in the EU or fully out. You either believe in a federal United States of Europe or you don’t.

The Chequers agreement appears (to my limited understanding) to be a huge fudge but probably favours the EU rather more than the UK. We now know that the former Brexit Secretary David Davis was totally undermined by No.10, but this shouldn’t be a surprise as the two most important and powerful people in the Government (PM & Chancellor) are both remainers.

I suspect eventually a way will be found for another referendum (it will just be called something else) and the EU commission/UK political elite will not be so complacent and arrogant this time. They will then get the ‘correct’ vote.

Only on the David Davis, he did the total of b****r all when Brexit Secretary. He and his depts research/preparations were utterly laughable for such a vital job, as the industry impact statements show; from comprehensive, when fighting to keep them from being made public to "well we didn't really do them and here is something we chucked together last night" when he had to present them to Parliament.

The only person who undermined David Davis was David Davis through his own incompetence.
 
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In September 2017 it was reported:
"EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has said the UK is likely only to get a trade deal with the EU “along the same lines” of what the EU has concluded with Canada, South Korea and Japan.
He said that the UK’s own “red lines” on Brexit (no freedom of movement, no jurisdiction for the European Court of Justice, the right to sign independent UK trade deals with third countries, etc) ruled out anything more extensive."

Its that Canada or Canada Plus deal .................or a cliff edge..................... I`ll bet on the former.
 
In September 2017 it was reported:
"EU chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has said the UK is likely only to get a trade deal with the EU “along the same lines” of what the EU has concluded with Canada, South Korea and Japan.
He said that the UK’s own “red lines” on Brexit (no freedom of movement, no jurisdiction for the European Court of Justice, the right to sign independent UK trade deals with third countries, etc) ruled out anything more extensive."

Its that Canada or Canada Plus deal .................or a cliff edge..................... I`ll bet on the former.
.... likely it'll be along the lines of this:eek:Canada-Dry-ginger-ale.jpg_350x350.jpg ......
 
I don’t want us to have a deal with the EU, for years we’ve been told what we can and can’t do by these people. I want us to be in control of everything, from controlling our borders, who can come in, and who can’t. I want us to be alone! I voted to leave, and have my reasons for that. I don’t have a problem for people entering the country, as long as they either have enough funds to sustain being here, or they can offer the nation something ie a skill/trade. I don’t want people coming here in uncontrollable numbers, it driven the wages down for a number of occupations. People have had enough of it, for the foreign workers it’s brilliant money. But 9/10 the money they make doesn’t stay within, which is bad for our economy. Then you have Mrs Merkel saying to these East Europeans, and North Africans. “ Yes please we want you to come here, now that’s all well and good, but it’s caused massive divisions within countries, and that’s not what you need. Its not just about immigration although that was a reason to vote leave. There are a number of reasons for me!

The main thing for me was, having to do what these unelected people told us to do. That will all stop now, and thank god!

We don’t need to worry about having a no deal. They will want to make trades with us, more than we will to them.

What makes me laugh is these idiots calling for a second referendum. Forget it! It was a massive turnout of voters, and frankly it would be shambolic and laughable to have a second vote.

If Remain won, then we would never have had this talk of a second vote. I’m glad Mrs May has said no to that straight away. I do wonder at times if she is the right person to be prime minister and leader of the Conservative Party. She was a remainer, but she’s followed through quite well considering. Shes
Lost a few members of the party, but all in all she’s doing ok. But just ok.

Mr Corbyn can try as much as he likes for a General Election, the thing is he is such a clown he will put us straight back into the EU. Thankfully he and his Labour Party will not be in power for
Some considerable time.

That’s all from me on this subject.

Would you rather we be told directly by the WTO what we can and cannot do in terms of international trade? Can you name anyone at the WTO - perhaps the person there that we voted for?
 
Would you rather we be told directly by the WTO what we can and cannot do in terms of international trade? Can you name anyone at the WTO - perhaps the person there that we voted for?

Members of the WTO ARE the WTO by country.
The WTO currently has 164 members which between them are responsible for 95% of world trade.
It is a negotiating forum for its members to create international trade rules, and an organisation to oversee how they put the rules into practice.
It is what the EEC/Common Market was.
 
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