National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 51 29.1%
  • No Deal

    Votes: 77 44.0%
  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 8 4.6%
  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 37 21.1%

  • Total voters
    175

Steve McAvoy

Junior Member
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28 Mar 2018
Messages
140
Despite the relentless attacks on Corbyn as far as I’m concerned his performance at the 2016 election has prevented the far right free market zealots from reducing this country to a bean feast for the wealthy and privileged. He gets my vote every time. Just suppose May had got her majority- doesn’t bear thinking about. Whatever the outcome of the Tory Brexit, it could have been so much worse.
 

Marked Ox

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Joined
6 Dec 2017
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12,026
Agree with you Pete. I have yet to see a convincing, coherent, fact-based argument for leaving the EU and how we will be better off economically, scientifically, academically and even culturally as a result.

I have seen plenty of scare stories about Maastricht treaty and what will happen from 2020 onwards if we were to stay (EU Army, have to adopt the Euro, lose our veto etc etc). All have been debunked. All are more project fear than the original project fear itself! The EU army bit always makes me laugh, have we forgotten that we're part of NATO and already do their (or should I say the US') bidding?

I also see that non-EU immigration is up(from the bit we have ALWAYS had sovereign control over), whilst EU immigration is at an all time low. I have never had a particular issue with immigration (at least not one that could be specifically blamed on the EU) - many who voted leave did. Am I the only one to see the irony here?

I also see that the good old US of A have published their opening gambit for a US/UK trade deal and (shock, horror!!) it includes reducing food standards and removing tariffs, which poses a significant risk to the UK food and other industry, not to mention the NHS. How far should we bend over, Uncle Sam?

The country is already crippled by Brexit and has been for most of the last 2 years. The amount of resource in the public sector that has been diverted and is actively working on Brexit and the contingency planning required is eye-watering and scandalous. And lest we forget, this is just working on the initial exit and interim arrangements, let alone the longer term relationship and deals that we will need. So expect masses of public sector resource tied up in that for most of the next decade, with you and I the good old tax payer funding the lot, whilst vital services are neglected and slashed yet further. All at a time when the economy will be weaker (no denying that now) and the tax revenue will be lower as a result....great!

And finally on the ridiculous concept of "taking back control" Can anybody honestly say that they WANT to give more control to the shower of incompetents who have been running this sh!tshow for the last 2 years? Because that is EXACTLY what taking back control will do. I would far rather have the collective talent of 28 states making decisions that benefit ALL of us than some 2-bit career politicians in Westminster whose own ambition is king.

Not to mention the civil servants who will be expected to take up the strain and do the real work, (un-elected bureaucrats in Brexiteer speak ;)) whilst still being expected to stomach below cost of living wage rises, adding to the decade of it they've already endured, unlike their lords and masters in parliament I hasten to add.

The more I think about it, the more I realise that the 2016 vote really did put the dum in referendum.
I think this is a perfect footnote to your post:


That the incompetent Chris Grayling is still a minister sums up how screwed we really are.
 
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Gary Baldi

Well-known member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
5,612
I think we should take back control ;):D

I might suggest very few people truly knew what they were voting for on both sides, but it's the same for most elections isn't it? There are plenty of people who will just vote Conservative, Labour even if their manifesto said something truly silly. Remainers remorse is still strong.

The issue with a 2nd vote, as I have asked many times is...

What do we what vote for? When do we vote for it? What do we do if the result is 52-48 the other way? I can't see Leavers staying quiet. What constitutes a final vote on the EU? Who agrees on what goes on the polling card? How will a vote be structured? How does this affect the European elections in June? How will campaign finance laws control what is spent? Etc.

At some point, the UK needs to stop squabbling with itself over Brexit and get on with some equally more important items that have been left untouched since later 2015. We need to move on. The NHS needs to sorting out. The future power needs to be sorted out. We need to build more houses. We need reinvest in public services. Etc.

A 2nd vote will only condemn the UK to another few years of arguing and division. Can we really afford to do that?
 

chuckbert

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Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
1,024
I might suggest very few people truly knew what they were voting for on both sides, but it's the same for most elections isn't it?
Doing that “even-handed” both-sides thing again GB?
No, both sides were not equally informed. Those voting remain knew what it was like to continue to be in the EU. Those who voted leave had no idea of how it would work and what the consequences would be (FFS even the govt still doesn’t know what it will mean years later). That isn’t a criticism of leavers - I’m quite fond of idealism, bravery and optimism as motivations.
But, it does quite clearly mean that there was not a level playing field of “knowing what they were voting for”.
 

chuckbert

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8 Dec 2017
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1,024
Isn’t the sensible widely-applied approach to not use 50:50 as the decision point? To enact a significant change you set the threshold for change at, say 60%. It is a bit conservative but puts the onus on changers to get a solid majority. Unfortunately that boat sailed with the first referendum.
 

Yellow River

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Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
1,069
Leave won the referendum, but a way will be found to remain, or BRINO.

It’s all about how we get to that point now, and has been since May called an election and reduced her majority.
 

m

Well-known member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
1,454
Agree with most of that, but the bit I've highlighted is not really relevant, in my opinion. Another vote should be about not whether we leave or not, but HOW we leave, which shouldn't be as divisive as the original in/out vote.
Exactly this!
 

tonyw

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6 Dec 2017
Messages
1,297
But then, they switched from the Swingline to the Boston stapler, but I kept my Swingline stapler because it didn't bind up as much, and I kept the staples for the Swingline stapler and it's not okay because if they take my stapler then I'll, I'll, I'll set the building on fire.....

Twenty years old this month. Still a great film.


Oh sorry - getting sidetracked from the main point! Although there's nothing much going on right now, and I can see a long extension to Article 50 coming, meaning I doubt much is going to be happening any time soon.
 

tonyw

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1,297
Go on then, give us a clue
Hmmm....well if you didn't get the movie from the article and the long iconic quote in my previous post, then it's possible that you may not be familiar with this cult classic!

But I guess I would follow with:

No! Not again! Why does it say paper jam when there is no paper jam! I swear to God one of these days I’m just going to kick this piece of s**t out of the window
 

Gary Baldi

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6 Dec 2017
Messages
5,612
Doing that “even-handed” both-sides thing again GB?
No, both sides were not equally informed. Those voting remain knew what it was like to continue to be in the EU. Those who voted leave had no idea of how it would work and what the consequences would be (FFS even the govt still doesn’t know what it will mean years later). That isn’t a criticism of leavers - I’m quite fond of idealism, bravery and optimism as motivations.
But, it does quite clearly mean that there was not a level playing field of “knowing what they were voting for”.
It's true! Does every Remainer you talk to understand the basic principles of the single market? Or their desire to further federalise and the impact it would have on the UKs status if we had stayed?

I rest my case m'lud
Agree with most of that, but the bit I've highlighted is not really relevant, in my opinion. Another vote should be about not whether we leave or not, but HOW we leave, which shouldn't be as divisive as the original in/out vote. What questions to ask would, as you say, be the tricky bit, (Come to think of it, it could be just as divisive .... what a mess!)
The reason I say the 52-48, is because how some Remainers have constantly called it too close to call and not a clear result, angling for a new vote. My perspective is it's a majority, we move on, whoever won. But the last 2 1/2 years would make people like me on principle alone, say it's not legitimate and we need another vote.

It is an absolute mess from left to right, and my desire now is just to get on with it and move to sorting the mess the country has been since Brexit reared it's head. The worst thing we can do for the youth of the country is to carry on arguing about a vote in 2016 and ignore everything else.

Time for adults to be adults...
 

ZeroTheHero

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Joined
7 Dec 2017
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3,230
It's true! Does every Remainer you talk to understand the basic principles of the single market? Or their desire to further federalise and the impact it would have on the UKs status if we had stayed?
Blimey. No - obviously they didn't. What they DID know was what is was like to live in a country that was part of a larger whole. A country where their rights were protected, where the environment was at least considered in legislation, where the country was part of a large trading block, where scientific and medical research was done in partnership with our European friends, where the size of the organisation meant we weren't bullied into accepting lower food/safety standards by the Americans/Chinese/Russians/etc, where a large number of people were quite prepared to take people as they were rather than worrying whether they had a 'funny' accent and looked a bit different to them etc etc etc. Obviously the creep towards greater federalisation was a worry, but talk about chucking the baby out with the bath water!

Those who voted on either side did so for a variety of reasons (some more laudable than others) but to claim that those who wanted the status quo didn't know what sort of society they were living in, but those who wanted to leave had a realistic view of what leaving would look like is silly, beause in the latter case - WE STILL DO NOT KNOW!
 

chuckbert

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1,024
It's true! Does every Remainer you talk to understand the basic principles of the single market? Or their desire to further federalise and the impact it would have on the UKs ...
That’s such a specious argument! It’s like saying that no one can ever make an informed judgement at an election because they can’t accurately predict the future. Reductio ad absurdum.
The thing is, I don’t understand the desire to paint things this way. It was, and is, obvious that a large part of the leave vote was a protest vote, a revolutionary vote, and maybe not even limited to the question of brexit. It’s fine for people to vote on the basis of “f**k this lot, I’ve had enough”, but that doesnt translate into knowing what you’re voting for. Instead it translates into being convinced to take a risk on the unknown.
That’s where adults need to be adults - take responsibility for having chosen significant unpredictable risk, rather than asserting that the other side didn’t know what they were voting for.

Every time you use this same rhetorical device you weaken your argument! 😀
 

makv

Well-known member
Joined
7 Dec 2017
Messages
2,553
It's true! Does every Remainer you talk to understand the basic principles of the single market? Or their desire to further federalise and the impact it would have on the UKs status if we had stayed?

I rest my case m'lud

The reason I say the 52-48, is because how some Remainers have constantly called it too close to call and not a clear result, angling for a new vote. My perspective is it's a majority, we move on, whoever won. But the last 2 1/2 years would make people like me on principle alone, say it's not legitimate and we need another vote.

It is an absolute mess from left to right, and my desire now is just to get on with it and move to sorting the mess the country has been since Brexit reared it's head. The worst thing we can do for the youth of the country is to carry on arguing about a vote in 2016 and ignore everything else.

Time for adults to be adults...
It’s a pity the youth of the country didn’t get a say in the matter, isn’t it? Instead, they were shafted by the over 60s, who, frankly, aren’t going to have to live with the consequences for very long.
 

Yellow River

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6 Dec 2017
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1,069
No. Important to reiterate that a second referendum should be about the manner of leaving though, not a rehash of the original in/out vote.
The as yet undetermined choices of the manner of leaving would, I'm sure, dictate the way that those who want to remain or leave vote. (And some will have changed their minds since 2016).

I suspect campaigners for a 2nd referendum such as Alistair Campbell, Andrew Adonis, Tony Blair, etc want leave on the ballot paper.
 

Yellow River

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It’s a pity the youth of the country didn’t get a say in the matter, isn’t it? Instead, they were shafted by the over 60s, who, frankly, aren’t going to have to live with the consequences for very long.
Yeah, anyone over 60 shouldn’t be allowed to vote.

50- 60 year olds, each vote counts as half a vote.
30-50 year olds, each vote counts as one vote.
20-30 year olds, each vote counts as double.
Under 20s, each vote counts as three vote.
 

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