National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Peterdev]

I see the minority parties have called on Corbyn to call for a People’s Vote.
I’m getting a bit bored with these MPs who’ve been tasked to act in our interests. They look after their own interests.
Why the hell should we have another referendum. We’ve made our choice by a majority. Just get on and deliver brexit.
May says we will leave on 29/3....this saga looks set to drag on and on until we end up with another referendum

 

[Marked Ox]

So he doesn't want a no deal but won't back May's deal... He wants it his way!

Well he is, sadly, only doing what the majority of others have done. Tbf, that is Labour policy iirc which clashes diametrically with May's "red lines". And I think he is an a**e.

I thought it was laughable that May now starts talking about others' putting self interest aside yet she doesn't appear to be willing to move from her "red lines", or acknowledge her self interest when she delayed the vote on her deal before Christmas. She should have done that 2 years or so ago without the red lines.

Her dig at Corbyn in the Downing Street press conference was also embarrassing considering she had just the day before, suffered a record historic defeat for a Govt.

 

[Marked Ox]

I see the minority parties have called on Corbyn to call for a People’s Vote.
I’m getting a bit bored with these MPs who’ve been tasked to act in our interests. They look after their own interests.
Why the hell should we have another referendum. We’ve made our choice by a majority. Just get on and deliver brexit.
May says we will leave on 29/3....this saga looks set to drag on and on until we end up with another referendum

Those minority parties want to stay in the EU.

 

[Northstandboy]

I see the minority parties have called on Corbyn to call for a People’s Vote.
I’m getting a bit bored with these MPs who’ve been tasked to act in our interests. They look after their own interests.
Why the hell should we have another referendum. We’ve made our choice by a majority. Just get on and deliver brexit.
May says we will leave on 29/3....this saga looks set to drag on and on until we end up with another referendum

Didn't you know majority results do not matter if there is a few % in it? ?

The EU are already looking at extending this by a year!

I don't think I could take another year! We need to get back to domestic matters!

To be fair to May, she's actually doing something she said she would do, unlike a lot of politicians.

 

[Gary Baldi]

Maybot's red lines are what she believes to deliver the result of the referendum - are they that unreasonable (other than because they are her red lines)? Let's face it. This whole thing is largely over a paragraph in a 500 page document, not over the whole deal.

At least she has a policy though. Labour continue to offer nothing valuable and their leader isn't leading.

Taking No Deal off the table is about as idiotic as it gets. It signals to the EU that we will hang around forever as vassal state and doesn't incentivise them to further negotiate in good faith. It's naive and short sighted.

 

[Peterdev]

Those minority parties want to stay in the EU.

So do all of them. It’s the British public that voted against

 

[Marked Ox]

So do all of them. It’s the British public that voted against

The Brexiteers don't and ironically voted down what many of them argued for in the Referendum (including Boris et al, even Farage argued for EFTA at one point).

We are a parliamentary democracy and Parliament is exerting its sovereignty by taking back control. Something the Leave campaign argued strongly for.

Also, democracy is an ongoing process, it doesn't stop after one vote.

Edit: correcting poor English.

 

[Marked Ox]

So May's words last night about reaching across the House were empty words then, it appears Corbyn made the right decision then.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1085823606171418624

For May, it seems it really does mean that everybody else has to abandon self interest but she doesn't with her red lines. She clearly hasn't learnt even now that she has to communicate and work with the other parties/MPs. Although that would be 2 years too late if she did.

A good summary of May for me from another post by somebody else on another forum:

"And a good follow up comments on Reddit:

it’s becoming increasingly obvious that the real problem is May. You’ve got to go back to the whole “strong and stable” mantra. She thinks strength means holding your ground and not giving in, no matter what. It’s the military interpretation of strength. The Donald Trump interpretation of strength. This sort of strength fundamentally comes from a position of weakness. The whole drawing of red lines nonsense sets the tone and is unhelpful.

The sort of strength we actually need right now is someone who’s strong enough, confident enough, to actually engage with those who disagree and establish a shared position. To compromise. Sometimes, to be strong, you need to be sure of yourself enough to show vulnerability.

Leaving No Deal on the table only strengthens our position in May’s head. We’re standing on the ledge threatening to jump. And yeah, we may dent the other guy’s car roof when our head bounces off it but it’s going to be far worse for us. It makes us look foolish and weak and desperate. And perhaps we are, but May has manoeuvred us in to that position."

 

[Marked Ox]

Even though May hasn't negotiated in any meaningful way, a new vote for the revised deal has been scheduled for the 29th January. So in all likelihood it will a rehashed version of her original deal*.

*As said by somebody else it will be her original plan with snazzy go faster stripes on, like Homer Simpson when he revamped the Nuclear Power Station.

 

[Peterdev]

At the end of the day Cameron let a referendum decide whether the British people want to stay in the EU. The MPs are elected by the people to carry out what the electorate decided upon, whether right or wrong.
The idea of a second referendum goes against the grain.
Corbyn won’t even meet May so he’s doing his bit to help resolve the issue, not that he seems to know what he wants.
As I’ve said before, I’m sure we’re being softened up for a so called people’s vote because parliament wants us to stay in the EU. Barnier is already on record as stating that a second referendum may be desirable..from his point of view because he wants us to stay in...with brexit on 29/3 delayed by rescinding Article 50.
The EU usually get their own way so if it happens I won’t be surprised.
But 17.4million people will feel cheated, and if that happens government cannot be trusted. The risk of a lurch to the right might well happen, something that the MPs should seriously consider

 

[m]

But 17.4million people will feel cheated, and if that happens government cannot be trusted. The risk of a lurch to the right might well happen, something that the MPs should seriously consider

Yeah, yeah.

And a similar* number will feel that the government can't be trusted to act in our best interests if we do crash out. The resultant economic hardship could well lead to a lurch to the right, something that the MPs should seriously consider.

Why trot out the same tired lines ad infinitum?


*speculation required as to how many since the voting demographic will have changed.

 

[Marked Ox]

At the end of the day Cameron let a referendum decide whether the British people want to stay in the EU. The MPs are elected by the people to carry out what the electorate decided upon, whether right or wrong.
The idea of a second referendum goes against the grain.
Corbyn won’t even meet May so he’s doing his bit to help resolve the issue, not that he seems to know what he wants.
As I’ve said before, I’m sure we’re being softened up for a so called people’s vote because parliament wants us to stay in the EU. Barnier is already on record as stating that a second referendum may be desirable..from his point of view because he wants us to stay in...with brexit on 29/3 delayed by rescinding Article 50.
The EU usually get their own way so if it happens I won’t be surprised.
But 17.4million people will feel cheated, and if that happens government cannot be trusted. The risk of a lurch to the right might well happen, something that the MPs should seriously consider

You don't know one way or another if 17.4m will be disappointed, some may be relieved once they've learnt more about it.

 

[Gary Baldi]

And some may take an example of the Gillet Jaune's a create merry hell. If we don't like a few gobby morons now....

But first of all, what the hell will we be voting on, and who is responsible for giving every voter the nuanced review of the vote so everyone knows exactly what will be voted on so there can be no misunderstandings? A 2nd vote sounds nice, but isn't practical, especially as it's not likely a majority will agree on what to vote on. Is the vote legally binding? What is the acceptable majority?

Nor is a GE helpful. What if Maybot get a bigger majority?

Sadly, Remain lacks even the most basic detail and the spectre of Jezza means that the Tories and DUP won't immediately want to do it.

A 2nd vote just is not simple to do. And we can't wish it to happen just because

 

[m]

And some may take an example of the Gillet Jaune's a create merry hell. If we don't like a few gobby morons now....

But first of all, what the hell will we be voting on, and who is responsible for giving every voter the nuanced review of the vote so everyone knows exactly what will be voted on so there can be no misunderstandings? A 2nd vote sounds nice, but isn't practical, especially as it's not likely a majority will agree on what to vote on. Is the vote legally binding? What is the acceptable majority?

Nor is a GE helpful. What if Maybot get a bigger majority?

Sadly, Remain lacks even the most basic detail and the spectre of Jezza means that the Tories and DUP won't immediately want to do it.

A 2nd vote just is not simple to do. And we can't wish it to happen just because

I agree.

Can't help thinking that most of what you say applies equally to the initial vote though.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I agree.

Can't help thinking that most of what you say applies equally to the initial vote though.

It 100% does. I suspect both sides, outside a few, never thought we'd be where we are now and even the EU are in that position.

It applies especially if people were too thick to understand it last time and made a bad decision.

 

[mooro]

You don't know one way or another if 17.4m will be disappointed, some may be relieved once they've learnt more about it.

The idea of double jeopardy was once entrenched in law, so that someone could not be tried twice for the same crime. More recently, this has been amended so that a second trail can take place if sufficient new or more detailed evidence has become available. (or something like that).

To me, the idea of a second referendum is much the same - in principle the first decision should stand regardless as that was the verdict, and many remainers at the time accepted that. However, as it was such a simplistic question, and people were promised/were voting for anything and everything under the guise of 'Leave' that we are now presented with at least two wholly contrasting versions of 'Leave' (Maydeal, No Deal) involving all kinds of details/hidden issues/compromises/etc that voters either did not consider or were even aware that needed their consideration, that it feels that the original verdict is no longer satisfactory (in legal parlance 'safe').

It feels akin to asking the jury to consider their verdict at the start of a trial, before any evidence has been presented, rather than at the end.
That is why I feel a second (but not a 3rd/4th etc) referendum is justified, perhaps with two questions 1) Leave or Remain 2) MayDeal or NoDeal (*or two redefined options developed from these), with everyone voting on both so that the 48% (or whatever it is) are considered in the final outcome.

Then, Johnson and Corbyn are taken outside and shot!

 

[m]

Do any of our resident Brexiteers think a 2nd vote would be undemocratic?

 

[LeftSideBoy]

Do any of our resident Brexiteers think a 2nd vote would be undemocratic?

Yes. Absolutely. However, what would you suggest the 2nd voting question be positioned as? Deal or no deal? Best call Noel Edmonds...

 

[m]

Yes. Absolutely. However, what would you suggest the 2nd voting question be positioned as? Deal or no deal? Best call Noel Edmonds...

I wouldn't suggest anything, just interested.

 

[LeftSideBoy]

I wouldn't suggest anything, just interested.

Same here, I was interested to see what kind of vote you/others would see taking place because surely anything remotely in/out related is just repeating the first referendum?