Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 30 26.3%
  • No Deal

    Votes: 59 51.8%
  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 1 0.9%
  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 3 2.6%
  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 21 18.4%

  • Total voters
    114

Gary Baldi

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It is not way worst, at the least it is the same. Farage had a building between him and his mob. Soubry did not as her mob were as close as standing right beside her shouting in her face on occasion and physically stopped her getting into Parliament. It was physical intimidation with abuse by a group of men surrounding 1 woman, they were as close as Jo Cox's attacker was to her so not soft at all.

You keep saying it is wrong but then complain that the Anna Soubry situation caused the 50 MPs to write. I don't want dickheads being able to try to physically intimidate MPs whatever their party and this was most definitely that.
Not when they tried to storm it! Nor when he was accosted outside a restaurant. Nor when his personal property was vandalised on multiple occasions. Even I do think, there is an element of he got what he deserved, but even so, we can't flip flop from permissible to horror because of who it is. Why didn't the 50 MPs get so offended when it was Farage, or other such people? Why now?

Is it ok if it is a man who awful views? That is the feeling I get.
 

Gary Baldi

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It's a shame, it really is, but I'm officially withdrawing from engaging GB in these debates from now on, for the very reasons you state. If only he'd be totally honest about his politics rather than pretending to seek a reasonable line in every discussion. It's quite draining. GB won't give a toss mind, and I look forward to future engagement on all things OUFC.
My politics are centre right. Always has been. I abhor the far right, but I do not like the permissible nature of abuse they get when the far left are given a pass. I will say it again because it's always glossed over. Both the far right and far left are imbeciles - I despise both equally and their behaviour. I merely try to point out the inconsistency in our daily lives. So while the abuse of Soubry was not on, I merely point out the rather rampant double standards when other people have been treated far worse.

I have to be obtuse, because otherwise people with a the non-standard views get shut down - imagine for a moment what it's like being one of a few out Brexiteers (and a Conservative) in a sea of Remainers. I get badgered over Brexit, over the Tory Govt like I'm a member of the Government with a deciding vote and knowledge to the nth degree. I am neither, and happily so.

My posts are crawled over, and when I don't back down, it's not appreciated. So frankly, I respect the heck out of 99% of posters on here and see things as ultimately strong opinions and nothing personal, but to quote Tom Petty, "I won't back down". In some respects, I wish I had let you Remainer lot sit here and just prattle about Brexit BS in this echo chamber and not wasted my life trying to offer an opinion on the other side.

Regardless, I wish this bloody Brexit mess would sort itself out soon and we can move on to important things like the NHS and get the economy growing again. Britain has to move on.
 

ZeroTheHero

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You think this is an 'echo chamber' for Remainers, GB?

That's very odd because for the most part I think there has been a civilised (refreshingly so) conversation on this thread between people of opposite views - and there are quite a lot of both on here IMO. In general this thread has reflected well on the forum, despite our differences.
 

Marked Ox

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Not when they tried to storm it! Nor when he was accosted outside a restaurant. Nor when his personal property was vandalised on multiple occasions. Even I do think, there is an element of he got what he deserved, but even so, we can't flip flop from permissible to horror because of who it is. Why didn't the 50 MPs get so offended when it was Farage, or other such people? Why now?

Is it ok if it is a man who awful views? That is the feeling I get.
So Anna Soubry is at least the same as Farage then. This and the Owen James one aren't the only incidents in the last few weeks when Parliament has been operating either but appear to be the straw that broke the camels back.

As I've said previously any such physical intimidation is wrong but then I'm not dismissing Farage's incidents as "mild".
 

Junior_1

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My politics are centre right. Always has been. I abhor the far right, but I do not like the permissible nature of abuse they get when the far left are given a pass. I will say it again because it's always glossed over. Both the far right and far left are imbeciles - I despise both equally and their behaviour. I merely try to point out the inconsistency in our daily lives. So while the abuse of Soubry was not on, I merely point out the rather rampant double standards when other people have been treated far worse.

I have to be obtuse, because otherwise people with a the non-standard views get shut down - imagine for a moment what it's like being one of a few out Brexiteers (and a Conservative) in a sea of Remainers. I get badgered over Brexit, over the Tory Govt like I'm a member of the Government with a deciding vote and knowledge to the nth degree. I am neither, and happily so.

My posts are crawled over, and when I don't back down, it's not appreciated. So frankly, I respect the heck out of 99% of posters on here and see things as ultimately strong opinions and nothing personal, but to quote Tom Petty, "I won't back down". In some respects, I wish I had let you Remainer lot sit here and just prattle about Brexit BS in this echo chamber and not wasted my life trying to offer an opinion on the other side.

Regardless, I wish this bloody Brexit mess would sort itself out soon and we can move on to important things like the NHS and get the economy growing again. Britain has to move on.
Good post that ^^^
 

Essexyellows

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The sad part is that the majority of us (irrespective of what MP`s say/think) are neither extreme right or extreme left.
Both main parties have been trying to grab more of the middle ground by subtle changes in policy & appearance.
The outcome of that is there was little difference, despite what many of us voters think, between them, New Labour, Blair et al were just "Tory Lite".
Labour have now lurched left with Comrade Corbyn who is doing his best to dodge the job he should be doing.
Conservatives have neglected their core and are paying the price with a weakened position.
Credit where its due TM is getting on with it as best she can.
It would be nice to see our elected representatives working for the good of all the nation, respecting the result, and getting on with it.
 

Sheik djibouti

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But what if working for the good of all the nation and respecting the result are mutually exclusive?

Get on with it by all means, but get on with what, exactly...delivering the will of the people or working for the good of all the nation?...one is by no means reliant on the other!!
 

Essexyellows

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But what if working for the good of all the nation and respecting the result are mutually exclusive?

Get on with it by all means, but get on with what, exactly...delivering the will of the people or working for the good of all the nation?...one is by no means reliant on the other!!
Leave the EU, the question that we all had the opportunity to vote for or against.
There wasn`t a "sort of leave" option on the ballot paper.
If Parliament can`t agree then it doesn`t go "back to the people" , they already voted.
They didn`t vote for a Norway +, another referendum or diddly else.
We leave on the 29th, there is an interim period of disengagement and, if needs be, implementation of WTO.
 

Sheik djibouti

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Leave the EU, the question that we all had the opportunity to vote for or against.
There wasn`t a "sort of leave" option on the ballot paper.
If Parliament can`t agree then it doesn`t go "back to the people" , they already voted.
They didn`t vote for a Norway +, another referendum or diddly else.
We leave on the 29th, there is an interim period of disengagement and, if needs be, implementation of WTO.
And in your and many others opinion, that is working for the good of all the people...In mine and many others, it is not because the benefits to all of doing so are far from clear.

We live in an elective, not direct, democracy..ie we elect representatives who we believe will govern in our best interests. That also involves them making a call on what those best interests actually are, based on the evidence available. And every now and again, they are required to make unpopular decisions (whether that is unpopular with a majority or with a significant minority) in our interests based on that evidence.

If we don't like the decisions they make, then we get the chance to vote them out next time around.

All well and good, but it rings a bit hollow when we're stuck with a 2.5 party choice and no real prospect of any more different, palatable choices any time soon.

Cameron's referendum was the lazy cowardly way out of dealing with an incalcuably complex and devisive issue. He did it to try and save his party...it may ironically have the opposite effect in time! It was extremely poorly thought out, extremely poorly executed and decisions since have been extremely poorly thought out and executed too.

Changing your mind and taking another route is not a crime when you realise how fraught with danger the road ahead appears!
 

RyanioBirdio

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I have to say, this country has a very unique approach to the idea of things such as changing your mind, compromise and debate. That’s kind of summed up by our parliamentary system, where we like to give one single party complete control, and the idea of a hung parliament or coalition (of chaos, right?) is seen as some sort of gasp-worthy disaster. Most countries in Europe have far more proportionate representation, often involving ten or more separate parties having to discuss, debate, negotiate, but ultimately compromise on policies that they feel are best in the interests of the country they serve. It’s good to hear opposing points of view, consider whether your original viewpoint is still the best plan of action, and if not then you simply don’t have to do it. This country is one of a small few where the idea of changing your mind or having a meaningful discussion, or perhaps even admitting you were wrong, is seen as some sort of outrage or sign of weakness. It’s a very British thing to puff your chest out and jump off the cliff if you said you’d do it, even if you know it’s going to hurt or even kill you. Almost like the idea of budging a single inch on your original viewpoint is a sign of defeat, but these colours don’t run etc. There are certain times when our grit and refusal to lie down can be both beneficial and something to admire, but this whole Brexit debacle is not one of them.

This nonsense idea that changing your mind now would be a failure, this isn’t democracy, the will of the people must prevail etc, is codswallop. We know a lot more now about what this ACTUALLY means and what the reality of both our options and possible outcomes are. Not everything, some things will always been unknown until you do them and it could go either way when you do, but we know more. And because of that, the notion of asking the people “do you want to still do this or not?” is not some sort of anti-democratic outrage, it’s actually the grown up thing to do within the context of this being arguably the biggest political decision of many of our lifetimes. Particularly if parliament can’t unlock itself. That’s what referendums were originally meant to be for, not to act as some sort of party point-scoring mechanism. That so many people are arguing against using something for its intended use, on an issue this important and that we now know a fair bit more about, is just typical of the British mindset. And I love my country, for the record. I’m proud to be from these shores, but caring for something or somebody means speaking up when they might be wrong or making a mistake, not just blindly adopting the mindset that you have to be loyal and backing them up even if they could be wrong, or even disastrously wrong.

I had a situation at my company a few years ago where we made the decision to change our operations, and with it a huge chunk of the entire business model, to something we all felt was quite revolutionary and although extreme in some ways, potentially truly groundbreaking. There were plenty of reasons to feel this and on paper, it looked like a really strong idea. But the further we went into things, the more conversations we had, the more that we gradually uncovered, the more we saw that this wouldn’t work. In fact, there became a fairly high chance that it would damage us badly. Worst case scenario closure, best case scenario downsizing or a case of staying more or less the same, but needing to do a lot more work in a more complex way for no uplift. Either way, the general consensus was overwhelmingly one of “actually, what we have now is better than all of these, even if we thought otherwise”. It wasn’t just the reality of implementing our own methods and strategies that wasn’t as straight forward as we had thought, we realised that we were plugged into multiple other companies that provided us with various services and products that make up our own business model, and if they weren’t going to play ball, or didn’t want to join us for the ride, or were going to charge us more for doing things in this new way, we couldn’t actually do it. Because how and more importantly, why would we? The admin would’ve been horrendous, we didn’t know how badly we would flounder while sorting it all out, and we also didn’t really see a clear way as to how at the end of it things would be easier or more profitable than what we had. So do you know what we did? We called the whole damn thing off. Mad, isn’t it, that when the reality of an idea hit home and it became clear it was probably a bad idea, or at best an unncessary one that resulted in no additional benefits for a lot more work, we thought it was silly and just didn’t do it. Yet by the logic of an awful lot of people, we shouldn’t have backed down, because we nailed our colours to the mast and you can’t go back. And yes, it was still a voting process at board level where we needed 50% plus one to pursue it. Which is actually the exact same criteria the referendum had - just get one more vote than the opposition and you win. Someone will probably say you can’t compare a country to a business but, really... well, you sort of can. Economies are businesses. Businesses on a colossal scale, businesses that have extreme duties of care that go beyond anything a place of work would have to consider, but it IS incredibly business like in the way it operates. If a business starts making less money it will either downsize or close - the implications of a country doing the equivalent are far graver, far more dangerous and frankly, far more completely and utterly terrifying than any business decision you could ever imagine. It isn’t even about the guaranteed end game, which as I said no one can truly know, it’s about being responsible and going “Erm... is this so completely enormous and, based on what we now see, incredibly complicated, that the idea of gambling and just doing this anyway is really daft and stupid?”

It’s okay to compromise. It’s okay to change your mind. It’s okay to think something is a good idea and then see that it isn’t. These aren’t signs of weakness. But for some reason a huge number of people on this island think it is, and would rather fall on their sword than even consider having to utter the words “I think I made a mistake, I’ve changed my mind”. If people still feel what we’re doing is the right thing and it wins again, fine. Doesn’t matter if people think it’s ridiculous, it is now known that a majority still want to push on, and at that point parliament will vote however begrudgingly to implement that decision. But there’s no reason not to have that final check before we jump. The only reason people wouldn’t want a second vote is if they think they might lose this time, and if anything the very reason they’re worried suggests that it’s a good idea. Because if it ISN’T the most popular choice any more, and if it DOES lose, we were right to not fling ourselves into the ocean, because it wasn’t the will of the people after all, whatever that phrase even means. And if it is? Then now we know. If what is going on is truly what the public wants then there should be no worries or hesitation in confirming it and getting us out ASAP. Plenty of people inside the commons could make their own lives easier while also making sure that it’s what we all want. Maybe people should ask themselves why they wouldn’t do that rather than ask why they should.
 
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Essexyellows

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Changing your mind and taking another route is fine, but not because you are scared of what might be over the hill before you have reached the crest! :)

If we were hurtling down a one in ten with a blind bend and no brakes then alternatives maybe considered. :LOL:

Business & finance will overcome any short term issues and then we do the unraveling.
 

Marked Ox

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The sad part is that the majority of us (irrespective of what MP`s say/think) are neither extreme right or extreme left.
Both main parties have been trying to grab more of the middle ground by subtle changes in policy & appearance.
The outcome of that is there was little difference, despite what many of us voters think, between them, New Labour, Blair et al were just "Tory Lite".
Labour have now lurched left with Comrade Corbyn who is doing his best to dodge the job he should be doing.
Conservatives have neglected their core and are paying the price with a weakened position.
Credit where its due TM is getting on with it as best she can.
It would be nice to see our elected representatives working for the good of all the nation, respecting the result, and getting on with it.
I can't give credit to May as from early on she set her stall out with the stupid public red lines speech and seemed to go out of her way to try to alienate/sideline Parliament. She has never stopped trying to sideline Parliament as her brinkmanship over timing of votes/debates has further demonstrated.

Also triggering A50 with no plan or idea/research done was mindbogglingly stupid. Especially as she then called an general election (which surprised even her own party) and blew a majority making her reliant on the DUP whilst wasting more time. The DUP's policy on Brexit is utterly laughable in demanding the impossible.

And then after using most of the A50 negotiating time up, she finally comes up with a plan that nobody likes. Cancelling the vote on this and procrastinating over it wasting more time, just demonstrated that it was actually all about her personally (on a par with Boris).

If she'd worked with Parliament early on then I reckon we may have got a consensus long ago. How it would have looked we won't know but at least we would now be making proper preparations for March 29th and ironically I reckon we would have been in a stronger negotiating with the EU.
 

Essexyellows

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Hindsight is a wonderous thing.
I doubt TM called the GE off the top of her head, she would have been advised (badly!).
The biggest issue was not going to the EU and starting on stronger terms which was crippled by the GE!
Lets be honest nobody else wants the job its the ultimate "damned either way" and see who is waiting to knife you when you emerge from the smoke of the fire!
 

Marked Ox

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Hindsight is a wonderous thing.
I doubt TM called the GE off the top of her head, she would have been advised (badly!).
The biggest issue was not going to the EU and starting on stronger terms which was crippled by the GE!
Lets be honest nobody else wants the job its the ultimate "damned either way" and see who is waiting to knife you when you emerge from the smoke of the fire!
My biggest bugbear with May was her intransigence regarding Parliament and her repeated attempts to sideline/alienate Parliament. She seems to believe it is all about her. That a member of the public had to go to court to force parliamentary sovereignty says it all.

The other was triggering A50 without a plan in place. The old saying "fail to prepare then prepare to fail" springs to mind.

Neither are in hindsight as they were discussed amply at the time and criticised.
 

Marked Ox

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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ster-mps-abuse-soubry-far-right-a8724491.html

So one of the 'Yellow Vests' involved in the Anna Soubry incident has been arrested.

The unoriginal UK 'Yellow Vests', who can't even get their own legitimacy and have to try to appropriate some from another country (that has nothing to do with their cause) are currently having a demonstration in London. Not huge numbers should we say:


So Chris Grayling, the project fear rubbish about the rise of the far right and the end of 'moderate' politics if the Maybot's plan isn't voted through looks a bit stupid. The tut-tutting will go up a few decibels if Brexit is stopped apart from a few nutters (relative in number).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46847169

2 points on Grayling's lazy claim, his own claim about the rise of far right (ironically) and the Brexit campaigns (either side) using fear as the main campaigning tool pretty much demonstrate that the era of moderate politics is over. The vitriol that plagues politics currently operates under confirms this.

Also as read elsewhere, has Grayling never studied how badly appeasement worked in the past?!

Edit 1: YouTube link.
Edit 2: Article on Grayling's comments
 
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Marked Ox

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As we've already lost as we're behind at Fleetwood, an update on the "unoriginals UK Yellow Vest" march:


If the source is accurate then about 200 turned up. The list of demands is fantastic, its almost like they've got together, asked people for suggestions in a brainstorming session and written down everything suggested, however random. The corruption ones are particularly good.
 
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As we've already lost as we're behind at Fleetwood, an update on the "unoriginals UK Yellow Vest" march:


If the source is accurate then about 200 turned up. The list of demands is fantastic, its almost like they've got together, asked people for suggestions in a brainstorming session and written down everything suggested, however random. The corruption ones are particularly good.
Not a good start.... :):)
I spend a fair bit of time in France & have a fair few friends over there, the "Yellow Vests" over there are what would be called the "squeezed middle class" over here. Those folk who work, contribute to society yet have little left at the end of the month.
There are lots of them both in France & over here, people who abide by the rules of society yet perceive that society (the system) takes more & more away from their quality of life and gives it to "somebody else".................................... sounds a bit like the EU really.
Those people will reach a breaking point, we are lucky in that the UK had a referendum which gave those people the chance to cause a seismic shock to "the system".
Of course the system bites back, in France its tear gas & riot police....over here its an intransigent parliament that are doing their best to either defer or cancel leaving.
I have no time for extremists of any type left, right, religious or otherwise and adopting somebody else`s "cause/image" is nothing short of pathetic.
 

Marked Ox

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Not a good start.... :):)
I spend a fair bit of time in France & have a fair few friends over there, the "Yellow Vests" over there are what would be called the "squeezed middle class" over here. Those folk who work, contribute to society yet have little left at the end of the month.
There are lots of them both in France & over here, people who abide by the rules of society yet perceive that society (the system) takes more & more away from their quality of life and gives it to "somebody else".................................... sounds a bit like the EU really.
Those people will reach a breaking point, we are lucky in that the UK had a referendum which gave those people the chance to cause a seismic shock to "the system".
Of course the system bites back, in France its tear gas & riot police....over here its an intransigent parliament that are doing their best to either defer or cancel leaving.
I have no time for extremists of any type left, right, religious or otherwise and adopting somebody else`s "cause/image" is nothing short of pathetic.
Happily I got the result wrong. :)
 

Peterdev

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Of course parliament will claim that they are acting in our best interests, with their obvious intransigence.
Now Theresa May has said brexit might not happen if MPs vote against her ‘deal’, this from a position that we will leave the EU on 29th March. Coincidentally my passport runs out the same day.
I think we are being softened up for yet another referendum, accept the deal offered, leave without one, or stay in.
Theresa May looks to be on a loser now. A no confidence vote may well follow maybe with a delay to brexit.
Jeremy Corbyn doesn’t know what he wants to do...he says let’s wait and see whether there is an election then we can present our position to the public. He has gone on record as saying the EU are willing to compromise and are known for it...to me it seems if we cave in we have made an agreement.
At a time when we require leadership it is lacking, the uncertainty continues.....
 
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