Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 39 28.9%
  • No Deal

    Votes: 68 50.4%
  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 3 2.2%
  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 24 17.8%

  • Total voters
    135

YellowTaxi

Junior Member
Joined
9 Jan 2018
Messages
134
Oh yeah the" inconsitency" of calling right wing people who shout at policemen "you're not even British" and tell them they're "fair game"- but aren't right wing at all
 

Essexyellows

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7 Dec 2017
Messages
803
That a small group of extremist protesters is described as "reflecting the mood of the country" is stretching things to the extreme.
What ever happened to "sticks & stones.............." ?
 

Steve McAvoy

Junior Member
Joined
28 Mar 2018
Messages
62
That a small group of extremist protesters is described as "reflecting the mood of the country" is stretching things to the extreme.
What ever happened to "sticks & stones.............." ?
As I understand it, sticks and stones is now subject to a written agreement with the EU negotiated resolutely at the last minute following a flying visit by our resolute Prime Minister. And they said it couldn’t be done...
 

Gary Baldi

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6 Dec 2017
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2,941
It wasn't just mild chanting, they surrounded Anna Soubry shouting abuse at her, right in her face, deliberately getting in her physical space and trying to block her going into Parliament. It was low level physical intimidation considering it was a load of blokes surrounding an individual woman.
It's mild in the context of:
Being forced to stay in a pub because of a mob of 80. Being repeatedly called scum (among other threats) by the mob and physically intimidated (Farage)
Being forced to employ personal security to go out for a meal. Being verbally abused when out for meal, with family abused (Farage)
Having property abused (Farage and Angela Eagle)
Being verbally abused at constituent office, home and family (inc kids) being verbally abused (Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Angela Eagle)

I don't necessarily condone the views of the politicians above, but clearly there has been an issue for quite some time, and for some it's become a permissible past time to pick on certain people just because.

None of it is right.
 

Marked Ox

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6 Dec 2017
Messages
6,010
It's mild in the context of:
Being forced to stay in a pub because of a mob of 80. Being repeatedly called scum (among other threats) by the mob and physically intimidated (Farage)
Being forced to employ personal security to go out for a meal. Being verbally abused when out for meal, with family abused (Farage)
Having property abused (Farage and Angela Eagle)
Being verbally abused at constituent office, home and family (inc kids) being verbally abused (Farage, Rees-Mogg, Johnson, Angela Eagle)

I don't necessarily condone the views of the politicians above, but clearly there has been an issue for quite some time, and for some it's become a permissible past time to pick on certain people just because.

None of it is right.
Targeting Rees-Mogg's kids was wrong as was abusing the other politicians. But to claim what happened to Anna Soubry was mild chanting/mild is utterly wrong, it was open, but low level, physical intimidation.
 

chuckbert

Active member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
308
GB - I’m not quite sure why you keep referring to Godwin’s law. Simply calling someone a nazi isn’t Godwin’s law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I do agree with you that cheap and unfounded comparisons to nazis and hitler are not at helpful in sorting out the shocking situation Britain’s got itself into over brexit though.
 

Gary Baldi

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6 Dec 2017
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2,941
GB - I’m not quite sure why you keep referring to Godwin’s law. Simply calling someone a nazi isn’t Godwin’s law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
I do agree with you that cheap and unfounded comparisons to nazis and hitler are not at helpful in sorting out the shocking situation Britain’s got itself into over brexit though.
This quote from the link: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust

Calling protesters Nazis fits that. Calling Soubry a Nazi is wrong too. Neither deserve that. Calling Soubry tone deaf might fit.

Targeting Rees-Mogg's kids was wrong as was abusing the other politicians. But to claim what happened to Anna Soubry was mild chanting/mild is utterly wrong, it was open, but low level, physical intimidation.
BIB. Being made to stay in a pub because of baying mob physically threatening you (among other persistent offences) or having your constituent office windows bricked, is way worse than what triggered the 50 MPs. Not right, but they picked the softest of the abuse to get angry about.

To be fair, if they had called Soubry a stupid woman, they could have denied it and it would have been all fine...
 

YellowTaxi

Junior Member
Joined
9 Jan 2018
Messages
134
as I don't believe you're stupid enough to believe there is no differnce between one man silently muttering something under his breath which may or may not have been "stupid woman: after heated exchanges in a public space to someone who is at least 15 yards away and with a small majority and several men sytematically abusing and getting in the face of a woman on the street as she walks to her workplace I can only suggest that you are a sympathiser.
 

Gary Baldi

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6 Dec 2017
Messages
2,941
I am being sarcastic on the Stupid Woman thing. That was much ado about nothing, and still is.

Open question. Is the abuse worse because it was done to a woman, rather than what it was? Someone like Farage (who has been out there) has had to change his life to stop the nutters. I'd say that is way, way worse than Soubry's issue, and I'd be concerned as to why that abuse has seemingly been permissible.

None of it is ok.
 

Sheik djibouti

Active member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
194
I don't recall Soubry making quite as many dog-whistle, fear and hate-filled claims as Farage...nor did she stand in front of a poster of a queue of refugees condoning and endorsing the message it put across.

One could argue that what Farage did was wilful incitement...It does not condone the reaction, but Farage knew exactly how devisive his rhetoric was and still is.

I am not sure pointing out the deficiencies of Brexit and the current process and the suggestion that the decision needs to be put back to the electorate, is quite in the same league.

That said, Soubry has been a willing member of a government that introduced austerity, the effects of which we are only beginning to see (none of which was the original aim espoused by Osbourne et al). That is a far bigger crime.
 

Marked Ox

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6 Dec 2017
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6,010
This quote from the link: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust

Calling protesters Nazis fits that. Calling Soubry a Nazi is wrong too. Neither deserve that. Calling Soubry tone deaf might fit.


BIB. Being made to stay in a pub because of baying mob physically threatening you (among other persistent offences) or having your constituent office windows bricked, is way worse than what triggered the 50 MPs. Not right, but they picked the softest of the abuse to get angry about.

To be fair, if they had called Soubry a stupid woman, they could have denied it and it would have been all fine...
It is not way worst, at the least it is the same. Farage had a building between him and his mob. Soubry did not as her mob were as close as standing right beside her shouting in her face on occasion and physically stopped her getting into Parliament. It was physical intimidation with abuse by a group of men surrounding 1 woman, they were as close as Jo Cox's attacker was to her so not soft at all.

You keep saying it is wrong but then complain that the Anna Soubry situation caused the 50 MPs to write. I don't want dickheads being able to try to physically intimidate MPs whatever their party and this was most definitely that.
 

Peterdev

Active member
Joined
17 Dec 2017
Messages
801
The argument sticks and stones may come up.
Calling someone a nazi because they disagree with their view is wrong. As someone who has visited Auschwitz the term nazi in this context is in any event inaccurate. The holocaust was an abomination and those who use the term nazi should really engage their brain before they open their mouth.
 

bashamwonderland

Active member
Joined
19 Dec 2017
Messages
219
The argument sticks and stones may come up.
Calling someone a nazi because they disagree with their view is wrong. As someone who has visited Auschwitz the term nazi in this context is in any event inaccurate. The holocaust was an abomination and those who use the term nazi should really engage their brain before they open their mouth.
Wrong - Yes.

Inaccurate - Yes.

Illegal - ?
 

Junior_1

Active member
Joined
16 Nov 2018
Messages
415
Oh yes, for sure. However, it is worth asking questions of certain people and an explanation would be good.
 

chuckbert

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Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
308
This quote from the link: I wanted folks who glibly compared someone else to Hitler to think a bit harder about the Holocaust

Calling protesters Nazis fits that. Calling Soubry a Nazi is wrong too. Neither deserve that. Calling Soubry tone deaf might fit.
lol. Pick the one sentence in the whole article that vaguely matches with your usage and quote that. I notice you didn't add the bit where he said "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician." because that concept doesn't quite match.

Nazism wasn't all about the holocaust, for a decade or so it was about brutal thuggish intimidation that created the precondition for the holocaust. The brutal thuggish intimidation is closer to what people don't like about what Soubry experienced.

I don't deny that any intimidation of Farage's family etc is not acceptable either, but your position on this and other things makes me want to coin "Baldi's Law": ""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of Gary Baldi choosing not to criticise unconscionable behaviour, but instead mitigating it by comparing it to the apparent misdeeds of others, approaches 1" :)
 

Gary Baldi

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6 Dec 2017
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2,941
lol. Pick the one sentence in the whole article that vaguely matches with your usage and quote that. I notice you didn't add the bit where he said "If you're thoughtful about it and show some real awareness of history, go ahead and refer to Hitler when you talk about Trump, or any other politician." because that concept doesn't quite match.

Nazism wasn't all about the holocaust, for a decade or so it was about brutal thuggish intimidation that created the precondition for the holocaust. The brutal thuggish intimidation is closer to what people don't like about what Soubry experienced.

I don't deny that any intimidation of Farage's family etc is not acceptable either, but your position on this and other things makes me want to coin "Baldi's Law": ""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of Gary Baldi choosing not to criticise unconscionable behaviour, but instead mitigating it by comparing it to the apparent misdeeds of others, approaches 1" :)
Not really. It was a line.

Has Brexit being going for ages? Yup. Have the insults been brought down to Nazism and Hitler because there is nothing else to talk about? Yep. So, the crowd calling Soubry a Nazi and she calling them Nazis, they've basically run out of anything more to say than to sling Godwin's Law at each other. Is that not correct?

Further, calling a group of (iditotic) men far right by rote, further implicates them as Nazis and thus evil.

So yes, we have gotten to the reductive point where each side is calling each other Nazis. We got there with Trump on his visit, now we are there with Brexit. What a time to be alive!
 
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