National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

Brexit - Deal or No Deal?

  • Deal

    Votes: 51 29.1%

  • No Deal

    Votes: 77 44.0%

  • Call in the Donald

    Votes: 2 1.1%

  • Call in Noel Edmonds

    Votes: 8 4.6%

  • I don't care anymore

    Votes: 37 21.1%
  • Total voters
    175
Annoyingly I can’t remember who/when, but I saw someone from the Leave campaign during the build up to the vote saying about how easy it would be to leave, to get a deal, etc.

If there was someone who’d said no-one will like the deal we negotiate, so we’ll have to suspend parliament to force through a no-deal Brexit, at least I’d respect their honesty/prediction skills.
 
Essexyellows said:
Really? Have you forgotten the Parliamentary recess for Party Conference season normally mid Sept to mid October?
www.parliament.uk

Recess Dates

Recess dates and sitting days for the House of Commons, Houses of Parliament
www.parliament.uk www.parliament.uk

We are now (pretty much) in September.

They return on the 2nd (about lunchtime as its Monday!) they have Tuesday,Wednesday,Thursday (and Friday if its a sitting day!).
Between the 9th - 13th Sept through until October 7th (give or take) Parliament would close for the conference recess normally.
In his letter it is clearly spelled out what is needed of Parliament & a time table for it.

So where are your "four and a half weeks" hiding???

"National crisis" ?? You are Owen Jones & I claim my £10.
Click to expand...
This is a useful link to the various conferences that have taken place. Worth noting time was taken out for Spring conferences earlier this year, with little decrying of political skulduggery at that time.

Party conference season - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Further, this was session in 2015:
And this is 2012
2012 conference season[edit]
Both show based on historical data, that there is nothing particularly abnormal about the Autumn recess or anything that controversial about it.

I can only imagine the whining from the Greens if Parliament had cut into their Conference and had votes for stuff that were important.
 
Could Al 'Boris' Johnson now push through May's EU deal without risk of parliament rejecting it?
 
Gary Baldi said:
Both show based on historical data, that there is nothing particularly abnormal about the Autumn recess or anything that controversial about it.
Click to expand...

As Marked Ox has already pointed out in detail - the difference is that MPs vote for a conference recess, rather than the government going to the Queen to force a parliamentary shutdown. As I've said, this is the longest prorogation of parliament for more than 40 years.

BoJo knows that his doesn't have a majority in parliament to support his Brexit strategy, so he's employing some highly abnormal tactics to ensure that they don't get their say, and to close other avenues they might have to oppose him - such as, most likely, MPs coming together to abandon or shorten the recess to allow them to take some control over Commons' business and design and bring forward a bill to ensure an Article 50 extension in the absence of a deal.

If you want to argue that those tactics are reasonable, and that all is fair in love and Brexit - OK, there's a discussion to be had.

If you're trying to argue that there's no abnormal tactics being employed here, then you're just clowning yourself.
 
It doesn’t seem fair any more than those arguing against brexit or no deal.
I’ll personally be very happy when what the people have voted for goes through.
Certainly all of Labour, Libs, Greens and SNP are all lining up against suspension of parliament
 
Im a tad confused, wasnt a major part of Brexit supposed to be about giving control back to Parliament?

yet BoJo has, with his proroguing, basically shut Parliament? :rolleyes:

Cant see how Parliament can' take back control' when its been shut down? ( by an un-elected, by ALL the people,
in a GE, PM who has a one seat majority ) .... or am I missing something?
 
and heres part of 'our ' current PM's letter to Tory party members prior to the leadership vote between BoJo and J 'Mike' Hunt

relevant comment highlighted ..... :oops: :oops: :oops: .... he must have asbestos underwear!!!

69462113_10157322061463405_5708164785112088576_n.jpg
 
"You don't deliver on democracy by trashing democracy.....you can't just shut down parliament....we are not selecting a dictator of our country"

Those were the words of our chancellor in the Tory leadership contest a whole two months ago.

I guess they say a week's a long time in politics...…..
 
isnt lying to the Queen an act of treason???

dorseteye.com

Defence Secretary all but admits that Boris Johnson lied to the Queen

Defence Secretary Ben Wallace caught on camera explaining the real reason why Parliament has been prorogued. Nothing to do with a new agenda – it is all about numbers as the government knows they can’t command a majority in the House of Commons, thus they have misled The Queen. Defence Secretary...
dorseteye.com dorseteye.com
 
BoJo best pay for those extra policemen he promised out of his own pocket, and sharpish too ... Ive a feeling the already overstretched thin blue line is already at snapping point.... with a plethora of events planned to protest proroguing Parliament, the balance of law and order in Uk could be well and truly beyond tipping point....


www.google.com

Stop The Coup Events & Protests - mapped - Google My Maps

Register to vote! https://gov.uk/registertovote Submit an event http://bit.ly/submityourprotest Resources at https://www.stopthecoup.org.uk/ Support Defend Democracy http://www.gofundme.com/DefendDemocracy Events will be checked before inclusion (we will not publish events that are outside...
www.google.com www.google.com
 
Navegante said:
Could Al 'Boris' Johnson now push through May's EU deal without risk of parliament rejecting it?
Click to expand...
I reckon a small bit of compromise by the EU could allow Johnson to get something through Parliament.
The trouble is thay had the EU compromised (most obviously when Cameron wanting help to avoid the leave vote), this maybe would never have happened in the first place.
 
tonyw said:
As Marked Ox has already pointed out in detail - the difference is that MPs vote for a conference recess, rather than the government going to the Queen to force a parliamentary shutdown. As I've said, this is the longest prorogation of parliament for more than 40 years.

BoJo knows that his doesn't have a majority in parliament to support his Brexit strategy, so he's employing some highly abnormal tactics to ensure that they don't get their say, and to close other avenues they might have to oppose him - such as, most likely, MPs coming together to abandon or shorten the recess to allow them to take some control over Commons' business and design and bring forward a bill to ensure an Article 50 extension in the absence of a deal.

If you want to argue that those tactics are reasonable, and that all is fair in love and Brexit - OK, there's a discussion to be had.

If you're trying to argue that there's no abnormal tactics being employed here, then you're just clowning yourself.
Click to expand...
Apologies for the rant, it;s for a wider audience in part.

Of course, but equally we have had a period of sustained precedence flying out of the window when things suited Remain - the Remain friendly Speaker staying is one, but there are many more abnormalities that have crept in and been met with "the end justifies the means" to stay in the EU. This game has not been fought evenly or honestly - Maybot is one, but there are many others.

I guess this is the first biggie on the Leave side in some time and as such, it hurt peoples feelings because it destabilised a perceived process to stop Brexit and crystallised a reality that we could leave the EU and Remainers have little or no control over it- I've come to care little for Remainers feelings now as it is just completely draining to be around and wholly negative.

There is no majority in Parliament for anything in regards to Brexit. Which is why triggering Article 50 and the full process from bean to cup was so key - Remainers neglected to do their research on the end game if no deal could be agreed when they voted for Article 50 because I assume they never took it seriously. I hate to raise this again but so many Remainers forget it. I am amazed even now that MPs who voted to trigger Article 50 are complaining about what they voted for or don't understand the legislative process.

As I said when the news broke, I didn't like the call one bit as it again descended to the Remainer level of dirty politics and I'd hoped BoJo would not go there when the Govt have control of the legislative agenda and there is little wiggle room for much anyway - regardless of what the Speaker says, unless he wants to change convention again. As such, we are there and stepping away from my personal view, it's an utterly wonderful political move that has truly distracted Remainers and provided a show to the EU that we are taking this seriously and are leaving if the backstop stays. It's a very cute negotiating strategy with the heat taken out of it.

I would be sympathetic to Remainers if they had fought a fair game and even tried to respect my vote. They haven't, so sadly, all is fair in love and war. I regret the lack of a deal that would allow us all to move on and talk trade, I regret Parliament self serving this process for their own views and forgetting the vote and trying retcon various theories and processes onto it.

In some respects, this is all Michael Gove's fault. If he had not politcally knifed Johnson after the vote, it's a big question if this sorry mess would have unfolded. I don't want No Deal, but with no change on the other side, what are we to do? Remain in purgatory forever more? Or get on with sorting out the many societal ills we have?

We need to move on. We need to fix our roads, we need to fix our schools, we need to invest in infrastructure, we need build a better society and help the poorest live a better life. We have to stop getting so angry over Brexit and move on, before we polarise ourselves forever and stop speaking to each other. And we need to respect votes and the people that voted in that vote. Whatever it entails. If it be Corbyn, McDonnell or Swinson being in Govt, I will accept the public vote, even if I don't like it. Because I will be adult about it.
 
Foley said:
I reckon a small bit of compromise by the EU could allow Johnson to get something through Parliament.
The trouble is thay had the EU compromised (most obviously when Cameron wanting help to avoid the leave vote), this maybe would never have happened in the first place.
Click to expand...
Agree wholeheartedly.

If the EU had compromised a bit with Cameron, I would have voted to Remain. They treated him with a waft of the hand, and look where we are. It's sad that little stone in the pond has created such bad ripples. We didn't need to get here
 
Not my words, but pretty much sums up exactly how l feel.about this shitshow:

"People are tribal monkeys. We need to feel that we are a ‘we’. We recognize that as individuals we are nothing, so we need to feel connected to a greater whole, a cause. It’s in our DNA. There’s an old quote from G.K. Chesterton - “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” So these days we are very susceptible to ‘cults’ of all kinds – conventional religions (and sects of those religions), political causes, identity politics – all of which are defined by an exclusivity, blind faith, resistant to scientific evidence and hostility to those outside the group.

If readers from outside the UK can bear with me, I will use the word ‘we’ for the British; I was born on this island (of partly immigrant stock – just like everyone else) and for better or worse, it is my home.
We all have loyalties (we’re not “citizens of nowhere” at all). Our loyalties usually begin with our families and the people around us, the people that we have known and felt closest to the longest. Then we have loyalties to our friends, to our street or village or neighbourhood, to our city or our geographical region, our nation-state, our part of the world; we have loyalties to our co-religionists, people with the same interests in music or art, the same football team, or to people from anywhere with the same political or social outlook. What I cannot understand is how loyalty to the nation-state (a relatively recent creation) is anywhere near the top of the list. For me, it exists somewhere but it lies at the bottom in terms of importance.

So we come to the Brexit fiasco, that has divided our little island approximately 50/50 (along with a massive constituency of ‘don’t know or don’t care’) and has brought a kind of terrible paralysis and bitterness to all political life here. The Brexit cause is fueled by all kinds of nationalist mythology. When I was a child I was taught about the 1914-18 war as being fought between Britain and Germany despite the fact that the Western Front was in France and the French (and of course Germans) lost many more men than the Brits. In World War 2, we are taught that we stood alone. While no doubt it may have felt like that, an idea ably exploited by Churchill, in reality we were supplied by mass convoys of ships crossing the North Atlantic at the cost of thousands of sailors’ lives (and a significant bill to be paid later which hampered post-war UK governments). We are not a self-sufficient island at all and never have been. I was taught that we ‘won’ World War 2, despite the obvious fact that it was won by the Russians and Americans. In the 19th Century, Britain was a rich country (on the back of an exploitative Empire forged by sea-power and slavery), even if those riches were not exactly shared, but wars eventually bankrupt all Empires. I rather like the humourist Marina Hyde’s observation that she believed that the UK was into a post-Empire hangover when actually it appears now that we’re just still drunk.

I remember well that when we entered the European Community in 1975, it was not for the reasons it was originally conceived – to bring an end to wars in Western Europe - but for economic necessity: by the early ‘70s, the UK economy was on its knees. Unfortunately British membership of the EU has largely coincided with 40 years of Conservative rule (the New Labour years not truly challenging their basic free-market ethos). And these years have seen a steady flow of money from public into private hands, a trickle-up economics, resulting in the current mind-boggling levels of inequality and the bitterness that this creates. And the declared intent of the highest profile Brexiteers is to accelerate the process. They are riding a tide of anger over what neo-liberal economics has done to our country whilst all the while promising a more extreme version: our beloved NHS is certainly to go (a process already well underway). These people love the winner-takes-all philosophy of America because if you’re already starting at the top, you have free reign to use your power and wealth to amass more power and wealth. This has nothing at all to do with the EU and everything to do with the deliberate policies of successive British governments. The ruling class have enriched themselves while selling the people a massive con-trick, blaming outsiders for the devastation, whether they be immigrants, refugees or EU institutions. Brexit is a con. If it does happen, yes, life will go on of course; there will be some disruption but planes won’t fall out of the sky, medicines will still be available, travel will still be possible, the water will still run out of the taps. But for the vast majority of people everything will get a little tougher and more complicated and more expensive and dreary, oppressive and cut-off. And all for what?

And all this takes place against a backdrop of impending worldwide ecological catastrophe. The most terrifying number I have read in recent years is that in my own lifetime, there has been a 40% decline of every other living thing on earth other than people. What a legacy! If there has been a time in history when the human race has to be united by necessity, this is it, and yet the opposite is happening. We are busy squabbling and blaming and building walls.

I don’t have all the answers of course - only to try to maintain a sense of scale and reality and compassion and not give into the mass hysteria of our time. The ‘we’ is all of us; it is the Earth."
 
Sheik djibouti said:
Not my words, but pretty much sums up exactly how l feel.about this shitshow:

"People are tribal monkeys. We need to feel that we are a ‘we’. We recognize that as individuals we are nothing, so we need to feel connected to a greater whole, a cause. It’s in our DNA. There’s an old quote from G.K. Chesterton - “When men choose not to believe in God, they do not thereafter believe in nothing, they then become capable of believing in anything.” So these days we are very susceptible to ‘cults’ of all kinds – conventional religions (and sects of those religions), political causes, identity politics – all of which are defined by an exclusivity, blind faith, resistant to scientific evidence and hostility to those outside the group.

If readers from outside the UK can bear with me, I will use the word ‘we’ for the British; I was born on this island (of partly immigrant stock – just like everyone else) and for better or worse, it is my home.
We all have loyalties (we’re not “citizens of nowhere” at all). Our loyalties usually begin with our families and the people around us, the people that we have known and felt closest to the longest. Then we have loyalties to our friends, to our street or village or neighbourhood, to our city or our geographical region, our nation-state, our part of the world; we have loyalties to our co-religionists, people with the same interests in music or art, the same football team, or to people from anywhere with the same political or social outlook. What I cannot understand is how loyalty to the nation-state (a relatively recent creation) is anywhere near the top of the list. For me, it exists somewhere but it lies at the bottom in terms of importance.

So we come to the Brexit fiasco, that has divided our little island approximately 50/50 (along with a massive constituency of ‘don’t know or don’t care’) and has brought a kind of terrible paralysis and bitterness to all political life here. The Brexit cause is fueled by all kinds of nationalist mythology. When I was a child I was taught about the 1914-18 war as being fought between Britain and Germany despite the fact that the Western Front was in France and the French (and of course Germans) lost many more men than the Brits. In World War 2, we are taught that we stood alone. While no doubt it may have felt like that, an idea ably exploited by Churchill, in reality we were supplied by mass convoys of ships crossing the North Atlantic at the cost of thousands of sailors’ lives (and a significant bill to be paid later which hampered post-war UK governments). We are not a self-sufficient island at all and never have been. I was taught that we ‘won’ World War 2, despite the obvious fact that it was won by the Russians and Americans. In the 19th Century, Britain was a rich country (on the back of an exploitative Empire forged by sea-power and slavery), even if those riches were not exactly shared, but wars eventually bankrupt all Empires. I rather like the humourist Marina Hyde’s observation that she believed that the UK was into a post-Empire hangover when actually it appears now that we’re just still drunk.

I remember well that when we entered the European Community in 1975, it was not for the reasons it was originally conceived – to bring an end to wars in Western Europe - but for economic necessity: by the early ‘70s, the UK economy was on its knees. Unfortunately British membership of the EU has largely coincided with 40 years of Conservative rule (the New Labour years not truly challenging their basic free-market ethos). And these years have seen a steady flow of money from public into private hands, a trickle-up economics, resulting in the current mind-boggling levels of inequality and the bitterness that this creates. And the declared intent of the highest profile Brexiteers is to accelerate the process. They are riding a tide of anger over what neo-liberal economics has done to our country whilst all the while promising a more extreme version: our beloved NHS is certainly to go (a process already well underway). These people love the winner-takes-all philosophy of America because if you’re already starting at the top, you have free reign to use your power and wealth to amass more power and wealth. This has nothing at all to do with the EU and everything to do with the deliberate policies of successive British governments. The ruling class have enriched themselves while selling the people a massive con-trick, blaming outsiders for the devastation, whether they be immigrants, refugees or EU institutions. Brexit is a con. If it does happen, yes, life will go on of course; there will be some disruption but planes won’t fall out of the sky, medicines will still be available, travel will still be possible, the water will still run out of the taps. But for the vast majority of people everything will get a little tougher and more complicated and more expensive and dreary, oppressive and cut-off. And all for what?

And all this takes place against a backdrop of impending worldwide ecological catastrophe. The most terrifying number I have read in recent years is that in my own lifetime, there has been a 40% decline of every other living thing on earth other than people. What a legacy! If there has been a time in history when the human race has to be united by necessity, this is it, and yet the opposite is happening. We are busy squabbling and blaming and building walls.

I don’t have all the answers of course - only to try to maintain a sense of scale and reality and compassion and not give into the mass hysteria of our time. The ‘we’ is all of us; it is the Earth."
Click to expand...
Yeah mate, but leave means leave.
 
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