National News Brexit - the Deal or No Deal poll

[Gary Baldi]

I would never suggest you're thick, but that whole sentence including use of the comparative 'instead' really can't be misinterpreted! The slogan suggested to the gullible that membership of the EU was depriving the NHS of £350 million were week, funds which would be available to the NHS if we no longer paid it to the EU.

The idea is crap, of course. When we leave the EU those funds will go towards the austerity pledge of reducing the UK's national deficit, not to the NHS.

With regards the £350m, it is massively different as it was their main strapline which was repeated over and over and was knowingly and deliberately inaccurate, at the least it was a serious obfuscation of the truth. Boris was still quoting the £350m figure in the TV debates as did the other Leave Campaign members when they were on TV.

The £350m is a lie by omission as it ignores a considerable chunk of the equation very deliberately. It is like a company saying to potential investors we have an income of £15m while hiding that their costs are £30m.

It was repeated so many times (on TV, Social media, radio, the bus, leaflets etc) and throughout the campaign. To paraphrase a saying that repeat a lie enough times and it becomes the perceived truth. Plenty of people believed it was true, that you didn't fair enough but plenty did.

I'll leave this here: https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/...exit-bus-was-wrong-the-real-figure-is-higher/

 

[ZeroTheHero]

From that very article:

"Was the £350m figure misleading? Yes, if it was spoken of as the net figure. Would the lower figure have been fairer, and got the point across just as well? Of course."

 

[Sheik djibouti]

They may do but the do believe if and when we leave we will be able to sort out deals major or minor

Not going to be much industry left to actually do any deals for if it doesn't get sorted very quickly Baz:

Brexit political mess a 'crushing disaster' for UK business – CBI chief

Brexit mess is a 'crushing disaster' for UK business, says CBI chief

Carolyn Fairbairn urges MPs to resolve the gridlock as investor confidence plummets

www.theguardian.com

The reality is we have already done much damage to business and have set it back several years as a result. Investor confidence is very poor, expansion plans have already been shelved or cancelled and many are already relocating elsewhere...including a significant part of our creative tech industry which were once world leading.

Every day that this mess is allowed to continue is another day of unnecessary self harm.

And getting into this situation in the first place and then not having any real clear idea of how to get out of it is a gross act of negligence by those responsible for Brexit and a gross dereliction of duty by the government responsible for delivering it.

Real tangible harm being done right now to our economic future and yet, the very same people who have caused this mess are still being touted as and trusted to deliver the solution.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry!

 

[m]

I have no idea what the quota of immigration is regarding their country or even the continent our overseas guest are from and tbh I don’t care if they’re working and contributing them fine, bit go back to the Blair/Brown government and accepting Bulgaria and Romania into the fold and allowing their citizens in but only if they had meaningful employment, that didn’t look the case back in 2006

Bazzer, I assume you've noticed all of the houses being built around our county.

Who do you think is going to live in these? Do you really believe there is any will to stop immigration?

I note also that you refused to answer the question of why Boris Johnson would make a good leader!

 

[Marked Ox]

Not going to be much industry left to actually do any deals for if it doesn't get sorted very quickly Baz:

Brexit political mess a 'crushing disaster' for UK business – CBI chief

Brexit mess is a 'crushing disaster' for UK business, says CBI chief

Carolyn Fairbairn urges MPs to resolve the gridlock as investor confidence plummets

www.theguardian.com

The reality is we have already done much damage to business and have set it back several years as a result. Investor confidence is very poor, expansion plans have already been shelved or cancelled and many are already relocating elsewhere...including a significant part of our creative tech industry which were once world leading.

Every day that this mess is allowed to continue is another day of unnecessary self harm.

And getting into this situation in the first place and then not having any real clear idea of how to get out of it is a gross act of negligence by those responsible for Brexit and a gross dereliction of duty by the government responsible for delivering it.

Real tangible harm being done right now to our economic future and yet, the very same people who have caused this mess are still being touted as and trusted to deliver the solution.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry!

Here's an example of the Brexit dividend:

British Steel in talks with government to avert collapse

The firm has borrowed money from its backers as it seeks a "permanent solution" to its financial woes.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[bazzer9461]

Bazzer, I assume you've noticed all of the houses being built around our county.

Who do you think is going to live in these? Do you really believe there is any will to stop immigration?

I note also that you refused to answer the question of why Boris Johnson would make a good leader!

I am not against migration and there f they’re building houses them yes they ha e to live somewhere but alas not in Oxfordshire as it’s well over priced and the jobs that a lot of these migrants a will be doing will not be enough to buy these houses.

As regards Boris if he was to win the leadership of the Tory party and is installed as PM the Eu would be worried very worried, but Labour will be calling for a general election due to the fact whoever whether it be Boris or other as they would be classed as an unelected PM.

If and a very much doubt an if the Lib/dems got into power they would show their dictatorship by scrapping Brexit without a consultation and that unfortunately W oils lead to unrest in Britain

 

[Marked Ox]

I am not against migration and there f they’re building houses them yes they ha e to live somewhere but alas not in Oxfordshire as it’s well over priced and the jobs that a lot of these migrants a will be doing will not be enough to buy these houses.

As regards Boris if he was to win the leadership of the Tory party and is installed as PM the Eu would be worried very worried, but Labour will be calling for a general election due to the fact whoever whether it be Boris or other as they would be classed as an unelected PM.

If and a very much doubt an if the Lib/dems got into power they would show their dictatorship by scrapping Brexit without a consultation and that unfortunately W oils lead to unrest in Britain

Why would the EU be very worried by Boris?

 

[Sarge]

Why would the EU be very worried by Boris?

theyd need to pay for a specialist translator ?

 

[Marked Ox]

theyd need to pay for a specialist translator ?

They'll have to select the translator between the bouts of laughter if it happens.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

The EU negotiators would run rings around Johnson! Inter caecos regnat strabo, don't you think?

Does that mean I qualify to be Foreign Secretary?

 

[Peterdev]

I don’t know that Boris Johnson would make a great leader at all. He changes his hairstyle as often as he does his opinion.
Of all the cabinet ministers probably vying for leadership, I would imagine the stand out contender is Michael Gove. Has done a good job in environment and education, in my opinion, and would probably be taken seriously in any negotiations.
All the credentials that Theresa May lacks. Johnson appears to have the party faithful behind him and that might tilt the odds in his favour.
I’m not Conservative leaning but people I know who are suggest Dominic Raab. But then he has form as Brexit Secretary..he resigned seemingly because he knew what was going on inside Brussels and he said it worried him.

 

[Gary Baldi]

From that very article:

"Was the £350m figure misleading? Yes, if it was spoken of as the net figure. Would the lower figure have been fairer, and got the point across just as well? Of course."

Of course - that's why I posted it...

But the whole it's a lie and a made up figure, etc, etc is not correct. It's a figure that isn't liked, rather than being wrong, etc. And my whole contention.

 

[Gary Baldi]

I understand Baz getting angry about the never ending Brexit saga, it's certainly a frustrating situation.

But despite weeks and months of exchanges on here, I've still to read anything that makes me even remotely think my 'remain' preference should be reconsidered.

The decreasing number of vocal Brexiteers on here seem to survive on hope and belief, while burying the concerns of real business people, economists and other comparative experts as some sort of negativism they can conveniently ignore.

'We will be alright' is not a strategy. 'We should be alright' is even worse. Referring to people as 'snowflakes' or even 'traitors' for instigating intelligent debate does, I'm afraid, reflect very badly on some Brexiteers.

The whole affair has been grossly mishandled. To even consider a referendum without planning an exit strategy first was a mistake. Three years virtual inactivity since shows we are just not ready to leave the EU, and shouting 'out means out' or any other banal soundbite doesn't change that.

And of course the same applies to both sides - being told that we'll be ok staying in the EU is a different side to the same coin. It worries me listening to people say maintaining membership of the EU will be fine, without any acknowledgement of the risks.

I've become a big leaver than I was at the time of the vote; I cannot conceive why we'd wish to remain in such an inefficient and inward looking organisation. But I don't want to re-argue the debate again, so will leave it there for everyone's sake.

 

[Gary Baldi]

And finally. Some interesting polling has come out this week:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1129284560502644736

It's interesting support for the Brexit Party continues to rise, where someone like Change UK is still firmly on the outside looking in. Labour's deliberate policy of fudging their leave policy is continuing to hit them in leave areas.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1129313057124044800

I am utterly flabbergasted that the complete shower that is the Conservative party, has the same Westminster voting intention as Labour. Damn

 

[bazzer9461]

Why would the EU be very worried by Boris?

Because he won’t dily daly like the others have.

 

[Sarge]

Because he won’t dily daly like the others have.

usually takes him around a month to mutter something incomprehensible

 

[Peterdev]

I understand the fears though Pete. What started off as working together with an objective of economic co-operation has over time become an objective for political union too.
Many of the leaders of the EU have reiterated the intention over time to become a United States of Europe. The idea of sharing or pooling sovereignty is also a term adopted too. This can sometimes mean sharing defence projects, having one currency or common objectives, education or social policy.
This has I am sure raised concerns of people in the U.K. and reaffirmed their opposition to the EU.
There are of course some very good things that have come out of the EU, and maybe had they had been highlighted more effectively during the referendum campaign the outcome could have been different.
The concern is if Johnson gets be leader he won’t be logical or approachable in his dealings with Barnier etc
The way this is dragging out we face the prospect of Labour led by Corbyn coming in with no clear alternative how he would resolve the issues facing us with Brexit, worse still, another deadlock with a hung parliament

 

[Marked Ox]

Because he won’t dily daly like the others have.

The mathematics in Parliament haven't changed and he may actually harden/bring together opposition to Brexit together.

 

[bashamwonderland]

I disagree (surprise, surprise!) Leaving and staying are not two sides of the same coin. There is no precedent of any country leaving the EU to set up its own trade agreements etc, so there is clearly a risk. But we know exactly how the EU works. You may consider it inefficient, and its MO could certainly be improved. But how is it inward-looking? It's a trading bloc of 28 nations that has deals with literally every country on earth.

Some people are promoting fears of a coming EU army and greater federalisation, but cannot provide evidence that the EU is even thinking about either. So why wouldn't the EU continue to operate in future as it is now, hopefully with some improvements in working practices?

Comment re EU army and greater federalisation are demonstrably wrong. A simple Google search will show this.

Point about inward looking is also incorrect.

Btw you said earlier that Brexit supporters gone silent now, not contributing to thread. That's because 110 pages of the same argument gets tiring after a while.

However I commend all those who are still here for their resolute dedication to mostly good natured debate.

 

[tonyw]

Honestly, I wish the Lib Dems, Greens & Change UK would simply have coalesced around a single pro-Remain entity for these elections.

Yes, they have substantial differences in policy when it comes to many domestic issues, but we all know that this is a single issue vote. It would've been much more effective for the promotion of that sole position if they had offered a single party (just for this election) and therefore maximized the number of seats gained by that party. As it is, they're gifting the PR high ground to Farage.

Frankly, I'm still trying to get my head around the d'Hondt method to work out if it makes a difference - in terms of pro-Remain representation - whichever one I vote for...….