Brexit Party Rally

[Essexyellows]

Dictatorial power? No. We have a vote on anything proposed, and a veto on anything we don't like.
Unless we have 3 allies we can NOT "veto anything we don` like". (1)

Forcible suppression of opposition? No. Members disagree and use vetoes all the time without any 'punishment'.
We voted to leave.... we are still "in", making it difficult for folk to leave could be perceived as "punishment".

Strong regimentation of society? No. The 28 members can run their own societies as they choose.
Within the over arching legal regulation.(2)

Strong regimentation of the economy? To a certain extent, yes. It's a European Union. Playing by the same rules is what makes it tick, although some members bother more about obeying the rules than others (France).
You play by the rules or get an "exemption" then? Like France..... ?

So, the EU is not an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organisation, nor is it characterised by the factors you list, barring (possibly) the last one. Hardly a strong case for calling the EU fascist.

It is more totalitarian now than it has ever been and wants more unity, more money and more control...... some of us saw that coming and how far it is now from the Common Market we joined...hence we voted to Leave.

Source 1: https://fullfact.org/europe/british-influence-eu-council-ministers/
Source 2 : https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/does-eu-law-take-precedence-over-uk-law/

 

[Foley]

How would you describe Stalinist USSR or our lovely democratic Chinese republic ? Dissidents are disposed of quietly and if you don't agree with the regimes them gulag for you ....

Of course. Authoritarian nationalistic governments can clearly be right wing or left wing in equal measure.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

I

Of course. Authoritarian nationalistic governments can clearly be right wing or left wing in equal measure.

personally think that the middle ground with less capitalism and a dash more socialism, without descending into hard left communism is the answer

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

I know. What's that got to do with opposing fascism in Europe? I've already described Putin's regime as fascist. Are you suggesting that because I oppose extreme right wing organisations I must be a communist of left wing agitator? To make that assumption would be baffling.

I'll make it simple. Overt racism, from 'Britain First' type scumbags or its milder factions like UKIP is unnacceptable. Fascist repressive regimes as in Russia and China are equally abhorrent.

I wonder what you term as racism though , nationalism? Or just disagreeing with your point of view ?
What do you describe yourself as all you post is anti right wing stuff

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

So do I. Agree 100%. Opposing right wing extremism isn't hard left communism though.

I find that calling anyone 'scumbags ' isn't the way to build dialogue or understanding of serious concerns though

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I think calling Britain First and their ilk 'scumbags' is both mild and appropriate. I sincerely doubt that organisation is in the least interested in 'building dialogue' - they are racists with an extreme agenda.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

W

Good for you. I admire your understanding. What's your view on the group 'Sonnenkrieg Division' who recently branded Prince Harry a race traitor and called for the rape and murder of white women who have relationships with black men? They are scumbags with whom I have no interest in building dialogue or understanding any concerns they might have.

The man who killed Jo Cox was associated with Britain First and considered murdering her reasonable because of her 'treason'. I would argue that a civilised society should have no interest in 'understanding' such people. What was his 'serious concern', I wonder, other than pure hatred?

What has that got to do with the massive generalisations who have said ? So we should blame every muslim for the murders of children in Manchester ?

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

W

What has that got to do with the massive generalisations who have said ? So we should blame every muslim for the murders of children in Manchester ?

Sonderwhatever were kids who posted some serious crap on the net ...so antifa ...you a fan of them ?

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Anyone who joins Sonnenkrieg Division or an organisation with similar aims knows exactly what they're doing and exactly what they believe in. Your analogy does not hold water. Of course not every Muslim is responsible for the acts of a Muslim extremist, but conversely every member of Sonnenkrieg IS culpable for anything any member of that organisation does, hence why it's illegal to join such extremist organisations and why membership could and should lead to imprisonment.

You are bringing up an obscure , racist fantasists and comparing them with the britain first group , The fact that you quote them as being some influential group is interesting

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Oh they're kids. That makes it OK then. Please have a think and come back with some serious debating points.

Antifa ....thoughts .....

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

I don't have any particular thoughts about Antifa. Agree with many of their stated objectives, but not their tactics. Interested in your rather flakey thought process though. I oppose right wing extremism. Antifa oppose right wing extremism, therefore I must be in favour of Antifa and everything they do, right?

Britain First provided shelter for people with extremist views, one of whom murdered an MP. They are scumbags. Perhaps you could offer some form of support for them? Perhaps they're misunderstood or perhaps they're reflecting understandable alienation of a sector of the population? Go ahead, fill your boots.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

Well If you think antifa are a decent bunch of chaps you are very much mistaken and if you insist on one person with mental health issues acting alone representing a political party then I see that you are very , very left .

 

[Navegante]

^^^ You've been rumbled Comrad Pete 'Red' Burrett

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

It would really help debate if you didn't make things up. I don't think Antifa are a decent bunch of chaps. I haven't said that or even alluded to it. I said I agree with many of their stated objectives, but not their tactics.

As for your last paragraph, doesn't really make sense, does it? I am very, very left for stating that Britain First harboured a murderer? I would call that an indisputable observation.

Harboured a murderer...are you quite mad ??
And you agree that thugs are great as long as they are 'your ' thugs .
And people might hold different opinions to yours Pete . Yes violence is the answer according to you

 

[Marked Ox]

Harboured a murderer...are you quite mad ??
And you agree that thugs are great as long as they are 'your ' thugs .
And people might hold different opinions to yours Pete . Yes violence is the answer according to you

I'm reading something very different to you clearly!

Also, the leader and deputy leader of Britain First were also found guilty of religiously aggravated harassment in 2018. So it isn't just one.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

I'm reading something very different to you clearly!

Also, the leader and deputy leader of Britain First were also found guilty of racially aggravated harassment in 2018. So it isn't just one.

I am sure that no o

I'm reading something very different to you clearly!

Also, the leader and deputy leader of Britain First were also found guilty of racially aggravated harassment in 2018. So it isn't just one.

no one would condone anyone killing someone for any political beliefs , the man who killed Jo Cox was obviously derranged .
I was originally stating that whether left of right we shouldn't hate but try and build bridges . Its too easy to tarnish all with the same brush.

 

[Marked Ox]

I am sure that no o

no one would condone anyone killing someone for any political beliefs , the man who killed Jo Cox was obviously derranged .
I was originally stating that whether left of right we shouldn't hate but try and build bridges . Its too easy to tarnish all with the same brush.

While I agree in theory about talking, Britain First are a racist organisation. How do you build bridges with them and square the circle of their views with the other communities such as Asian communities?

 

[ZeroTheHero]

But some of these extreme groups *are* hate groups. That's the point of them! They *hate* people with different views to them, or with the *wrong* colour skin or whatever they've decided is to be the focus of their unreasoning anger. It does not matter how much you want to build bridges, bridges have to have some foundations. You can be on the right of politics without condoning or excusing these people, in the same way as you can be on the left and not wear a Baader Meinhof t-shirt.

 

[Gary Baldi]

There is nothing nice or progressive about Antifa. Nothing at all. The fact social media platforms still see it fit host their content absolutely amazes me when they "purged" similar content on the right as it went against community standards (or whatever the excuse was). Anyone that aligns with their aims or views needs to look closer into what those "scumbags" are really like. And step away.

They are not a group you want to associate with.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

You can 'align with the aims' of an organisation without agreeing with their methods.

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I wouldn't even say they have my support. Fighting fascism = good, paramilitary = bad in my book.

 

[Thomas/Brock/Jones]

I would say that the facists and communists in the 30's who fought each other were as bad as one another and both regimes murdered millions of people. I would not support either group as both as bad as each other

 

[dannyc]

Fascism is an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. Those who want such a government / social organisation are fascists. If you want self governance under such a system you are a fascist. If 'putting your own house in order' involves wanting an authoritarian and nationalistic right wing system of government that's fascism.

Why are you associating a 'Franco-German alliance' (which doesn't actually exist, by the way) with fascism? Putin's Russia is a fascist entity, the EU is not. And why are you associating the efforts of world war veterans with a vote to leave the EU?

Yep, freedom and democracy, and to free Europe and save ourselves from fascist dictatorships. Anyone who actually believes the EU in any way replicates a fascist dictatorship needs to understand the term better. It was noticeable during the DDay commemoration how many veterans spoke proudly of being European.

people can be proud to be european and not like the European union you know both are not the same thing .

 

[Whingit]

Essentially you mean proud to be white, I'm guessing?

 

[dannyc]

Essentially you mean proud to be white, I'm guessing?

NO oh thats right lefties like you think only white people are racists i guess .

 

[Discoland]

Essentially you mean proud to be white, I'm guessing?

In Danny's defence I love Europe and all it has to offer; the sights, different cultures, new experiences and all that, but the EU is broken. I still believe we need to be in it to fix it though.

The Brexit Party's protest today was petty, as was the Lib Dems. Billy big b*llocks Farage created this mess and everyone should be looking to him to blame, not helped by points gaining and childish games from the Tories and Labour. As far as I can see we're screwed with a no deal Brexit and marginally less screwed by remaining in and voting in numbers at the next GE for the most viable party at the time.

 

[Gary Baldi]

You can 'align with the aims' of an organisation without agreeing with their methods.

I don't agree. If you align with the aims, you align with the methods to get those aims across. I don't think you cannot abdicate personal responsibility of how organisations/pressure groups like Antifa work/operate just because you align with their ethos.

Otherwise can someone, in theory, say I align with the Nazis mentality of racial purification in Europe, but not the methods they do it get there? Therefore I support the Nazis but if they murder some Jews, oh well? It's an extreme example, but nonetheless.

 

[Foley]

In Danny's defence I love Europe and all it has to offer; the sights, different cultures, new experiences and all that, but the EU is broken. I still believe we need to be in it to fix it though.

The Brexit Party's protest today was petty, as was the Lib Dems. Billy big b*llocks Farage created this mess and everyone should be looking to him to blame, not helped by points gaining and childish games from the Tories and Labour.

I totally agree with that. I love so much about Europe but there are big problems within and with the EU in my view.
I know that many will disagree but I tend to think that if we remained in the EU now there would be a lot of very angry people who voted out. In addition I would suspect that the UKs influence in the EU would be significantly reduced ( the EU do appear to be happy to 'punish' the UK as a disincentive for any other Country thinking of doing the same thing)

 

[ZeroTheHero]

I don't agree. If you align with the aims, you align with the methods to get those aims across. I don't think you cannot abdicate personal responsibility of how organisations/pressure groups like Antifa work/operate just because you align with their ethos.

Otherwise can someone, in theory, say I align with the Nazis mentality of racial purification in Europe, but not the methods they do it get there? Therefore I support the Nazis but if they murder some Jews, oh well? It's an extreme example, but nonetheless.

Rubbish. And you've brought the Nazis up again!

'Align with the mentality'? The mentality of the Nazis was fascism, racism and genocide! I didn't say I 'supported' anyone (in fact I specifically rejected that word). I might like the aims (for example) of the RSPCA - and do - but I am not at all convinced by the organisation itself and some of the methods they use. I might like the aims of the Labour Party - and some of them I do - but as an organisation I do NOT support them for other reasons. You can actually say the same about the Tory party. I support the work done by Oxfam whole-heartedly - but am dismayed by what some of their employees have done.

I reiterate - it is quite possible to agree with the aims of an organisation (and again I did NOT ever mention Antifa) without endorsing or supporting that organisation. For many reasons.

 

[chuckbert]

I don't agree. If you align with the aims, you align with the methods to get those aims across. I don't think you cannot abdicate personal responsibility of how organisations/pressure groups like Antifa work/operate just because you align with their ethos.

Otherwise can someone, in theory, say I align with the Nazis mentality of racial purification in Europe, but not the methods they do it get there? Therefore I support the Nazis but if they murder some Jews, oh well? It's an extreme example, but nonetheless.

I don’t think that’s a particularly defensible position. If someone in Texas agrees with the state that murder a bad thing, it doesn’t mean they support capital punishment any more than someone in Oxford. If someone agrees with the prolife movement it doesnt mean they agree with shooting doctors. Quakers agreed with the British government that the nazis were terrible, but didn’t agree with bombing Germany. There are huge numbers of causes where there are groups who share common aims but have a massive spectrum of approaches to addressing them on which they will fundamentally disagree.

Your example is a particularly poor one. There is no reason why someone couldn’t hold a thoroughly racist position without supporting genocide. Your argument fails on the characterisation “I support the nazis but”. No one said “I support antifa but” they said they agreed with their aims but not their actions. That’s different.