National News The Brexit Thread 🇬🇧🇪🇺

We're in for a loooong wait on that one. The tories have been wallowing in a mire of their own making for quite some time, but the combined clusterfucks of Brexit and Covid have hidden just what inept fantasists they are when it comes to day to day governance. Until they rid themselves of the ERG loonies they will continue to plumb the depths, I would imagine.

Mind you, that will be harder than Labour flushing out Momentum, as the ERG is far more part of Tory DNA....and chimes with their culture war agenda.

Maybe we should all just listen to Rory for a bit: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0019rj2 (about 3 minutes in) and learn how to debate (argue) nicely again 🤷‍♂️

What we could have had........... I tried to tell you.

Even this time around the sensible, pragmatic ones got canned off and we get what the parliamentary party think is a wise choice...............
 
What we could have had........... I tried to tell you.

Even this time around the sensible, pragmatic ones got canned off and we get what the parliamentary party think is a wise choice...............
Sounds like you're heading for the exit of the Bluekip bunker[emoji848]

I knew you'd see sense eventually [emoji6]
 
Sounds like you're heading for the exit of the Bluekip bunker[emoji848]

I knew you'd see sense eventually [emoji6]

Not at all.
The party membership generally accepts the rules and the process.
It's all about the policies and progress, and winning elections, I`ll dig something out later that makes for interesting reading.
 
Not at all.
The party membership generally accepts the rules and the process.
It's all about the policies and progress, and winning elections, I`ll dig something out later that makes for interesting reading.
Never has the Groucho Marx quote in the Tory Leadership thread seemed more appropriate [emoji1787]
 
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I say....how terribly unpatriotic of you.

Meanwhile.....https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/03/revealed-uk-children-ensnared-far-right-ecosystem-online?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
 
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I voted for remain but only got off the fence the day of the referendum. It’s taken me a while to realise that what this was & is about is taking control. The small numbers of people who considered themselves the ruling class saw brexit as a way of getting the control that in their eyes they were loosing to Brussels . They didn’t give a FF about the consequences to anyone else.
 
I voted for remain but only got off the fence the day of the referendum. It’s taken me a while to realise that what this was & is about is taking control. The small numbers of people who considered themselves the ruling class saw brexit as a way of getting the control that in their eyes they were loosing to Brussels . They didn’t give a FF about the consequences to anyone else.
Yes exactly, it was a cynical coup. It was indeed ‘taking back control’, but not in the way the propaganda implied.
 
Yes exactly, it was a cynical coup. It was indeed ‘taking back control’, but not in the way the propaganda implied.
Quite

And the very fact that you now have the likes of Jacob Rees-Mogg and Nadine Dorries swanning through Whitehall and lording it over the machinery of the state illustrates precisely why this was always such a terrible idea.

Utterly unforgiveable short-sightedness, coupled with shameful and unparalleled levels of hoodwinking - Brexit in a nutshell!
 
I voted for remain but only got off the fence the day of the referendum. It’s taken me a while to realise that what this was & is about is taking control. The small numbers of people who considered themselves the ruling class saw brexit as a way of getting the control that in their eyes they were loosing to Brussels . They didn’t give a FF about the consequences to anyone else.
I think many of us were only soft remainers. We could see that the EU wasn't perfect by any means but we also appreciated what it brought in terms of freedom of movement, employment and trade. What we couldn't see was how leaving the EU would improve things and we didn't fall for the bullshit xenophobia driven leave claims.
 
I think many of us were only soft remainers. We could see that the EU wasn't perfect by any means but we also appreciated what it brought in terms of freedom of movement, employment and trade. What we couldn't see was how leaving the EU would improve things and we didn't fall for the bullshit xenophobia driven leave claims.
This is exactly it, for me. I gave serious thought to the prospect of voting to leave for a multitude of reasons, primarily because if anybody asks me a really serious question and wants me to give my answer then I want to make sure I give that question the respect and consideration it deserves. I want to challenge my own opinion at all times, because it’s only in doing so that I can confidently stand behind them. That’s why I listen to lots of political talk radio, some of which is very left of centre and some of which is very right of centre. I like to know what people who think differently to me are saying, because it keeps me exposed to opposing viewpoints.

Ultimately my decision to vote to remain came from two pretty simple stances:

1) Nobody could give me a definitive or consistent answer as to what leaving looked like. There was no common message or defined endgame. Some people said we would leave the single market, but many said we categorically wouldn’t; some said we would stay in an unspecified customs Union ranging from membership of the EEA to buzz phrases like “Canada++”, others said we would just crash out in a “hard Brexit” ASAP. Also, none of the people presenting these options actually had any authority or ability to promise anything at all, regardless of whether or not anybody’s view was consistent with anybody else’s. They were basically asking me to sell my house and have no idea where I was going to move until I was standing on the pavement with a suitcase in my hand. I don’t know why I would ever do that.

2) Some of the political characters supporting the leave campaign were beyond odious and untrustworthy, with a proven track record of being liars and opportunists to a truly dangerous extent. I’m not saying that every ‘remainer’ was a Saint - we don’t live in a world of absolutes no matter how much people try to claim otherwise for their own benefit - but I had a terrible, terrible feeling about being on the same side as a number of prominent Brexiteers. Johnson was the big one for me - a man who once wrote a book on Churchill and claimed that his decision to stand up to Hitler was a calculated risk, and a careerist gamble to gain the position of Prime Minister. That told me an awful lot about his mindset and how far he might be willing to go to get what he wanted, so when he became the poster boy it was a huge red flag. Especially once the argument was reduced to slogans and faux-patriotic name calling in lieu of facts and evidence.

Basically, I knew where I was even if it was flawed in some ways, and couldn’t understand the notion of blindly throwing myself out of a plane and worrying about whether or not there was a parachute strapped to my back until I was already speeding towards the ground.

To me, that’s just “common sense”.
 
What we could have had........... I tried to tell you.

Even this time around the sensible, pragmatic ones got canned off and we get what the parliamentary party think is a wise choice...............

Sadly BlueKip haven't just got hold of the Parliamentary Party, they're getting hold of the Constituencies as well. BlueKip are the Tories' Momentum.

The difference from the outside seems to be the others in Labour fought back, both in the Parliamentary Party and in the NEC as well. I can't see that happening in the Tories currently and if anything it is going the other way. Just have to wait for the purges on the non BlueKip MPs to start.
 
This is exactly it, for me. I gave serious thought to the prospect of voting to leave for a multitude of reasons, primarily because if anybody asks me a really serious question and wants me to give my answer then I want to make sure I give that question the respect and consideration it deserves. I want to challenge my own opinion at all times, because it’s only in doing so that I can confidently stand behind them. That’s why I listen to lots of political talk radio, some of which is very left of centre and some of which is very right of centre. I like to know what people who think differently to me are saying, because it keeps me exposed to opposing viewpoints.

Ultimately my decision to vote to remain came from two pretty simple stances:

1) Nobody could give me a definitive or consistent answer as to what leaving looked like. There was no common message or defined endgame. Some people said we would leave the single market, but many said we categorically wouldn’t; some said we would stay in an unspecified customs Union ranging from membership of the EEA to buzz phrases like “Canada++”, others said we would just crash out in a “hard Brexit” ASAP. Also, none of the people presenting these options actually had any authority or ability to promise anything at all, regardless of whether or not anybody’s view was consistent with anybody else’s. They were basically asking me to sell my house and have no idea where I was going to move until I was standing on the pavement with a suitcase in my hand. I don’t know why I would ever do that.

2) Some of the political characters supporting the leave campaign were beyond odious and untrustworthy, with a proven track record of being liars and opportunists to a truly dangerous extent. I’m not saying that every ‘remainer’ was a Saint - we don’t live in a world of absolutes no matter how much people try to claim otherwise for their own benefit - but I had a terrible, terrible feeling about being on the same side as a number of prominent Brexiteers. Johnson was the big one for me - a man who once wrote a book on Churchill and claimed that his decision to stand up to Hitler was a calculated risk, and a careerist gamble to gain the position of Prime Minister. That told me an awful lot about his mindset and how far he might be willing to go to get what he wanted, so when he became the poster boy it was a huge red flag. Especially once the argument was reduced to slogans and faux-patriotic name calling in lieu of facts and evidence.

Basically, I knew where I was even if it was flawed in some ways, and couldn’t understand the notion of blindly throwing myself out of a plane and worrying about whether or not there was a parachute strapped to my back until I was already speeding towards the ground.

To me, that’s just “common sense”.
Precisely this @RyanioBirdio 👏👏👏
 
Nobody could give me a definitive or consistent answer as to what leaving looked like. There was no common message or defined endgame.
Exactly this. Lost count of the number of times on here (and elsewhere) that I asked for a reasonable view of what 'leaving' would mean. Still waiting to receive one. Like @QR I was a 'soft remainer' open to reasoned debate for leaving. No-one seemed able to cut through the hyperbole and general bulls**t surrounding the debate. This still seems to be the case.
 
I think many of us were only soft remainers. We could see that the EU wasn't perfect by any means but we also appreciated what it brought in terms of freedom of movement, employment and trade. What we couldn't see was how leaving the EU would improve things and we didn't fall for the bullshit xenophobia driven leave claims.
This ^^^

When something isn’t working perfectly, yet also not really broken, smashing it against a wall into thousands of pieces is not the answer.

Which is why I have slightly less sympathy (shoot me down by all means) for these businesses that were doing well trading with Europe but still choose to vote leave, I guess out of greed to do even better?, and are now crying about it.

By all means they can say they were lied to, but if many could see leaving the EU was a bad idea, or at the very least playing with fire, why couldn’t they?
 
The youth team trip to Italy is part of the EU Erasmus scheme, must have been arranged before the hard exit as we are no longer members.
 
TBH I think the vast majority of remainers were not the raving Europhiles that those heading the leave campaign liked to portray. I don't think many thought that our arrangement with Europe was perfect, or that the EU was some sort of modern Garden of Eden. Instinctively though when I looked at the leading leavers (Farrage, Johnson, Rees-Mogg et al) I didn't think I'd be 'on their side' - and when none of them could actually say how it was going to work (except to mutter about how it 'might take 50 years' to see any real benefits, drivel on about taking back control and controlling the borders - how is that going by the way? - and simply lying about the financial benefits for the NHS, for example), you knew that there was actually NO PLAN that included the improvement of the lives of the vast majority of the citizens of this country.
 
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