National News Brexit 31/1/20 🤷‍♀️

Essexyellows

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I disagree. Your MP acts in your best interest, it has nothing to do with your best wishes. That’s the whole point of a representative system. You delicate someone to make informed decisions on your behalf with more information than you or I have access too.

I can’t think of any structural questions where the public are more informed than a Member of Parliament.

Which structural questions did you have in mind?

Now and again the MP`s may be better informed and they should be able to make the case for "best interest".
Equally, there are occasions where they need the people on board, and the changes are of sufficient weight/impact that the people should be asked.
That is pure, unadulterated democracy and is passed in law by those who represent our best interest before they ask us and becomes a national referendum.
We`ve only ever had 3 so they aren`t thrown around willy nilly and when they happen they matter.

Joining the EEC.
Electoral Reform.
Remaining in the EU.

As Atlee called them: "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."

Even Mrs T was against them, think she called them devices of dictators and demigogues ....... *checks thread - not the Boris one :)
 

Oslernorth

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Now and again the MP`s may be better informed and they should be able to make the case for "best interest".
Equally, there are occasions where they need the people on board, and the changes are of sufficient weight/impact that the people should be asked.
That is pure, unadulterated democracy and is passed in law by those who represent our best interest before they ask us and becomes a national referendum.
We`ve only ever had 3 so they aren`t thrown around willy nilly and when they happen they matter.

Joining the EEC.
Electoral Reform.
Remaining in the EU.

As Atlee called them: "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."

Even Mrs T was against them, think she called them devices of dictators and demigogues ....... *checks thread - not the Boris one :)
It isn’t pure, unadulterated democracy when large private interests can easily manipulate the majority for their own interests.
Proportional representation goes some way to mitigate against that. Except of course when your MP is “Consulting” large firms.
 

QR

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Now and again the MP`s may be better informed and they should be able to make the case for "best interest".
Equally, there are occasions where they need the people on board, and the changes are of sufficient weight/impact that the people should be asked.
That is pure, unadulterated democracy and is passed in law by those who represent our best interest before they ask us and becomes a national referendum.
We`ve only ever had 3 so they aren`t thrown around willy nilly and when they happen they matter.

Joining the EEC.
Electoral Reform.
Remaining in the EU.

As Atlee called them: "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism."

Even Mrs T was against them, think she called them devices of dictators and demigogues ....... *checks thread - not the Boris one :)
It's not 'unadulterated democracy' when the press repeat and reinforced the lies of politicians instead of calling them out.

It's not 'unadulterated democracy' when 45%of voters are represented by 56% of MPs, and another 11% of voters are represented by 1.7% of MPs. I could go on.
 

Essexyellows

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It's not 'unadulterated democracy' when the press repeat and reinforced the lies of politicians instead of calling them out.

It's not 'unadulterated democracy' when 45%of voters are represented by 56% of MPs, and another 11% of voters are represented by 1.7% of MPs. I could go on.

Unadulterated democracy is when all the electorate gets to vote on a binary question.
Like this.
2016_EU_Referendum_Ballot_Paper.jpg


The fact that a lot of Remain voters thought they were going to walk it because nobody votes for change is probably a little rhetorical now. 🤷‍♀️

That middle ground again that tips the balance in everything, and they vote.
 

chuckbert

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Unadulterated democracy is when all the electorate gets to vote on a binary question.
Like this.
2016_EU_Referendum_Ballot_Paper.jpg


The fact that a lot of Remain voters thought they were going to walk it because nobody votes for change is probably a little rhetorical now. 🤷‍♀️

That middle ground again that tips the balance in everything, and they vote.
Now you've got me readying about democracy. I don't think there is any definition of democracy that suggests a binary single-issue vote is its unadulterated form. This site has lots to read https://www.moadoph.gov.au/democracy/defining-democracy/# - I may be some time.
 

Oslernorth

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Unadulterated democracy is when all the electorate gets to vote on a binary question.
Like this.
2016_EU_Referendum_Ballot_Paper.jpg


The fact that a lot of Remain voters thought they were going to walk it because nobody votes for change is probably a little rhetorical now. 🤷‍♀️

That middle ground again that tips the balance in everything, and they vote.
Quite possibly the worst example of Unadulterated democracy
 

SteMerritt

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Unadulterated democracy is when all the electorate gets to vote on a binary question.
Like this.
2016_EU_Referendum_Ballot_Paper.jpg


The fact that a lot of Remain voters thought they were going to walk it because nobody votes for change is probably a little rhetorical now. 🤷‍♀️

That middle ground again that tips the balance in everything, and they vote.
Life isn't binary. The EU issue was never binary.
 

QR

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Unadulterated democracy is when all the electorate gets to vote on a binary question.
Like this.
2016_EU_Referendum_Ballot_Paper.jpg


The fact that a lot of Remain voters thought they were going to walk it because nobody votes for change is probably a little rhetorical now. 🤷‍♀️

That middle ground again that tips the balance in everything, and they vote.
No, I'm missing it. Where does it say leave/remain in the Single Market? Where does it say leave/remain in the Customs Union?
 

Sheik djibouti

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I disagree. Your MP acts in your best interest, it has nothing to do with your best wishes. That’s the whole point of a representative system. You delicate someone to make informed decisions on your behalf with more information than you or I have access too.

I can’t think of any structural questions where the public are more informed than a Member of Parliament.

Which structural questions did you have in mind?
And herein lies the single biggest flaw with referenda.

You basically make it up and tell the media what you want the public to believe - and THAT is how they become informed.

And as most of our more popular media has been in the gutter for most of the last 30 years and vastly anti-European, with an almost constant drip feed of"Brussels madness" - type stories (forget facts, they have no place here) for that time, it does make your job somewhat easier to trigger those feelings once the referendum is called.

So if your two measures of democratic success are "Getting stuff done" and "Asking the people direct on "important" issues through the use of referenda", it is starting to head in a pretty dark and dangerous direction imho. Very easily manipulated

It reminds me of somewhere, but I can't think where....
 

Essexyellows

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Life isn't binary. The EU issue was never binary.

It was when we joined so had to be when the question arose again. 🤷‍♀️

Remember the process before the 1975 vote had started some fourteen years earlier and within 15 months of joining we were renegotiating our "Ts & C`s".

In the immortal words of the Labour Party.
"The Labour Party opposes British membership of the European Communities on the terms negotiated by the Conservative Government."

Also worth remembering, for those that can, the "state of the nation" prior to the `75 vote.... RPI (Inflation) was 26.1% , Oil crisis, 3 day week and several "States of Emergency" were declared, IIRC there were 2 or 3 General Elections in fairly short order as well.

So that might have influenced people desperately seeking some stability................
 

Sarge

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It was when we joined so had to be when the question arose again. 🤷‍♀️

Remember the process before the 1975 vote had started some fourteen years earlier and within 15 months of joining we were renegotiating our "Ts & C`s".

In the immortal words of the Labour Party.
"The Labour Party opposes British membership of the European Communities on the terms negotiated by the Conservative Government."

Also worth remembering, for those that can, the "state of the nation" prior to the `75 vote.... RPI (Inflation) was 26.1% , Oil crisis, 3 day week and several "States of Emergency" were declared, IIRC there were 2 or 3 General Elections in fairly short order as well.

So that might have influenced people desperately seeking some stability................
i may have imagined it , as it was a long time ago , but prior to the early 70s referendum about joining the then Common Market* ( under Ted Heath as PM) - incidentally the first time I was old enough to cast a vote- didn't 'big-nose' DeGaulle veto all the previous UK attempts/ applications to join the Common Market*?

* for younger YF posters/readers the Common Market was an early incarnation of what, over time, mutated into the EU
 

Sheik djibouti

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It was when we joined so had to be when the question arose again. 🤷‍♀️

Remember the process before the 1975 vote had started some fourteen years earlier and within 15 months of joining we were renegotiating our "Ts & C`s".

In the immortal words of the Labour Party.
"The Labour Party opposes British membership of the European Communities on the terms negotiated by the Conservative Government."

Also worth remembering, for those that can, the "state of the nation" prior to the `75 vote.... RPI (Inflation) was 26.1% , Oil crisis, 3 day week and several "States of Emergency" were declared, IIRC there were 2 or 3 General Elections in fairly short order as well.

So that might have influenced people desperately seeking some stability................
How old were you....about 10?

So what crisis of equally titanic proportions drew the people to vote leave, I wonder

Hey.....maybe that's the problem....you're seeing the world Pre-EU membership though the eyes of a child :ROFLMAO:
 

SteMerritt

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It was when we joined so had to be when the question arose again. 🤷‍♀️

Remember the process before the 1975 vote had started some fourteen years earlier and within 15 months of joining we were renegotiating our "Ts & C`s".

In the immortal words of the Labour Party.
"The Labour Party opposes British membership of the European Communities on the terms negotiated by the Conservative Government."

Also worth remembering, for those that can, the "state of the nation" prior to the `75 vote.... RPI (Inflation) was 26.1% , Oil crisis, 3 day week and several "States of Emergency" were declared, IIRC there were 2 or 3 General Elections in fairly short order as well.

So that might have influenced people desperately seeking some stability................
erm, no. Life isn't binary, there are many shades of grey. Blathering on about when we joined is irrelevant. People can't be put simply into one of two boxes. That's why a simple 'yes or no' referendum isn't 'democracy at it's purest' or whatever phrase you used.
 

bashamwonderland

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And herein lies the single biggest flaw with referenda.

You basically make it up and tell the media what you want the public to believe - and THAT is how they become informed.

And as most of our more popular media has been in the gutter for most of the last 30 years and vastly anti-European, with an almost constant drip feed of"Brussels madness" - type stories (forget facts, they have no place here) for that time, it does make your job somewhat easier to trigger those feelings once the referendum is called.

So if your two measures of democratic success are "Getting stuff done" and "Asking the people direct on "important" issues through the use of referenda", it is starting to head in a pretty dark and dangerous direction imho. Very easily manipulated

It reminds me of somewhere, but I can't think where....
"You tell the media what you want the public to believe"

Or, if you're a remain-supporting Conservative leadership figure, you can spend £8m in taxpayer money sending out a pro-remain flyer covered in bullshit to every house in the country with the intention of getting a remain victory.

Edit: £9m
 

Essexyellows

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erm, no. Life isn't binary, there are many shades of grey. Blathering on about when we joined is irrelevant. People can't be put simply into one of two boxes. That's why a simple 'yes or no' referendum isn't 'democracy at it's purest' or whatever phrase you used.

A vote by the people, the electorate, is as pure as you can get.

"Direct democracy or pure democracy is a form of democracy in which the electorate decides on policy initiatives without legislative representatives as proxies."

It is the direct, undiluted will of the people rather than being representative.
 

Essexyellows

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How old were you....about 10?

So what crisis of equally titanic proportions drew the people to vote leave, I wonder

Hey.....maybe that's the problem....you're seeing the world Pre-EU membership though the eyes of a child :ROFLMAO:

A little older thank you.

Mind you I started work at 14 so might have had a different view than many. :ROFLMAO:
 

SteMerritt

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A vote by the people, the electorate, is as pure as you can get.

"Direct democracy or pure democracy is a form of democracy in which the electorate decides on policy initiatives without legislative representatives as proxies."

It is the direct, undiluted will of the people rather than being representative.
Except it isn't in practice. You are basically forcing some square pegs into some round holes just to give a 'yes or no' answer.
 

bashamwonderland

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Except it isn't in practice. You are basically forcing some square pegs into some round holes just to give a 'yes or no' answer.
That argument can be applied to any voting decision. Even if we had a PR voting system for general elections, which everyone (including myself) believes is the desirable voting system, you're still projecting your complex political outlook on a selection of rigidly defined and ultimately unknowable ideology sets. It's the nature of making decisions.
 

SteMerritt

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That argument can be applied to any voting decision. Even if we had a PR voting system for general elections, which everyone (including myself) believes is the desirable voting system, you're still projecting your complex political outlook on a selection of rigidly defined and ultimately unknowable ideology sets. It's the nature of making decisions.
Yes, not really denying that, more disputing the assertion that a 2-choice referendum is 'pure democracy'. Democracy is by the nature of the beast government by compromise.
 

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