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Two in one............... ๐ŸŽฃ

Wasn`t MB on the EU team espousing how wonderful it all was?

Yet now he wants France to take back power from the EU (particularly Germany)?

Whilst he may be inside the club trying to make changes it may highlight exactly how difficult that is..... the same kind of problems others have faced.
What is the rule, law or whatever that benefits Germany over the other 26 nations, including ourselves whist a member?
 
Likewise, nobody ever suggested Brexit would be without problems, some will be short-term, others longer-term as will the benefits.
Naughty boy! You are at it again like your lying Tory boy politician mates. download (1).jpeg
 
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Good grief you really need to learn to read what people post, and also work on the alignment of images in your posts. :ROFLMAO:

Have a read, educate yourself.
This is a really good read, and gives very a accurate detailed account of the entire referendum campaign.

Iโ€™m a little bit confused why youโ€™ve posted it though, itโ€™s not much of an argument for Brexit? Unless Iโ€™ve missed something?
 
This is a really good read, and gives very a accurate detailed account of the entire referendum campaign.

Iโ€™m a little bit confused why youโ€™ve posted it though, itโ€™s not much of an argument for Brexit? Unless Iโ€™ve missed something?

The margin of victory was fine, and the people running the remain campaign did nothing to stop the "talking down" to those who were thinking about voting to leave.
"Thick/racist/uneducated/don`t know whats good for you etc etc etc."
The Remain campaign took it for granted that enough folk would back the status quo when plenty of people were really thinking "For once in my life, my vote will make a difference".
The other failure was that the "middle ground" is the people that actually get off their sofa`s and vote.

Then, in 2019 they got a reminder to deliver the will of the people.

The power of the ballot box eh?
 
Who was coming up with the โ€œThick/racist/uneducated/don`t know whats good for youโ€?
Pre ref, before a vote was cast, it would be impossible to pigeon hole someone in that way.
 
Who was coming up with the โ€œThick/racist/uneducated/don`t know whats good for youโ€?
Pre ref, before a vote was cast, it would be impossible to pigeon hole someone in that way.

It began as inclination and suggestion, partly driven by the campaign language and then escalated when the result came in.

Had remain adopted a more conciliatory and understanding tone that people rightly had concerns things may have been different.

Water under the bridge and all that, I`ll be dead by the time we think about rejoining. :)
 
It began as inclination and suggestion, partly driven by the campaign language and then escalated when the result came in.

Had remain adopted a more conciliatory and understanding tone that people rightly had concerns things may have been different.

Water under the bridge and all that, I`ll be dead by the time we think about rejoining. :)

Difficult to reason with thick/racist people. ;) :)
 
I also think there was a general (and I would suggest willful) misinterpretation of the statement that people voting for Brexit didn't really know what they were voting for.

Many were sold the idea that voting for Brexit would mean the easiest trade deals in history would follow, that the UK would be ยฃ350 million better off each week and that we could spend that on the NHS. That (for some at least) we would remain close in trade terms to Europe and that customs union might form part of that along with close alignment of rules and standards. So out of the club but still with some of the benefits to reduce potential shock.

Much of this has not and will never come true and therefore, nobody actually knew ...and we still don't know what voting for Brexit will actually mean. As Essex said, many who did vote for it will be long gone by the time we can actually assess what the full impact has been....we may never actually be able to quantify that in full.

The "don't know what you are voting for" line was seized on to great effect by Leave campaigners to say that Remainers were suggesting Leave voters were thick and didn't understand what they were doing. Not the case IMHO. It was a statement of fact that nobody could accurately predict what voting leave meant. Still can't and probably never will! It simply created a useful division and childish mudslinging, where we should have opted for a grown up evidence-based conversation about the substance of the issue(s) of leaving the EU. You only have to look at the main proponents of Brexit in Farage, Banks and Wigmore to see men who have made an absolute career (and fortune) out of being controversial, incendiary and divisive, whilst only distantly acquainted with facts.

But as we had already had nearly 40 years of childish (and often unsubstantiated) jibes at the EU in our wonderful media.....it was easier to keep on mining that same rich vein of nonsense...and divide and conquer. Rather than face anything of substance...largely because there was none.

The racist issue is a more interesting one though. I have oft heard said that whilst not all Brexit voters were racists, all racists were Brexit voters. And as unpalatable or uncomfortable as that may be, it is probably pretty accurate.


I'm sure someone will be along any minute with a screenshot of the ballot paper, which of course confirms what everyone was indeed voting for :rolleyes:
 
The "don't know what you are voting for" line was seized on to great effect by Leave campaigners to say that Remainers were suggesting Leave voters were thick and didn't understand what they were doing. Not the case IMHO.
Correct.

Then the people it was aimed at riling up fell for it completely, got really upset and doubled down despite being confronted with all manner of facts and evidence that they had been conned, and kept punching themselves in the balls even when it was explained to them what was going on.

And thatโ€™s why theyโ€™re stupid.

๐Ÿ˜‰
 
I'm sure someone will be along any minute with a screenshot of the ballot paper, which of course confirms what everyone was indeed voting for
You must remember. Three simple question.

a) do you want to remain a member of the EU or not?
b) do you want to remain a member of the customs union or not?
c) do you want to remain a member of the single market or not?

Wasn't it? ๐Ÿค”
 
Yep and here comes good old Jim Callaghan to hoodwink you all into voting yes :ROFLMAO:

You might do well to remember that t`internet was in its nappies at the time, so it is plausible to say the electorate was less well informed then and more easy to manipulate. If you had control or leverage of TV or print that was about all you needed.
Then factor in 40 years of evolution/growth/creep into what the EU has become and you get the result the electorate delivered.
 
You might do well to remember that t`internet was in its nappies at the time, so it is plausible to say the electorate was less well informed then and more easy to manipulate. If you had control or leverage of TV or print that was about all you needed.
Then factor in 40 years of evolution/growth/creep into what the EU has become and you get the result the electorate delivered.
Internet?...1975?....have a word! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

So it's alright to say the electorate was gullible and thick back then but not now because the font of all knowledge and beacon of truth, brought to us by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, means it is impossible to fool anyone...ever. Plausible in your universe maybe.

You also forgot to factor in the 40 years of lies and mistruths and sensationalist claptrap about the EU in the media, which I have no doubt coloured the views of all those gullible 1975 voters and their gullible offspring too.

You are a silly billy at times:ROFLMAO:
 
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Internet?...1975?....have a word! :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:

So it's alright to say the electorate was gullible and thick back then but not now because the font of all knowledge and beacon of truth, brought to us by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, means it is impossible to fool anyone...ever. Plausible in your universe maybe.

You also forgot to factor in the 40 years of lies and mistruths and sensationalist claptrap about the EU in the media, which I have no doubt coloured the views of all those gullible 1975 voters and their gullible offspring too.

You are a silly billy at times:ROFLMAO:

I said "in its nappies", do try and read the detail, it`s early form existed in the 1960s amongst defence & academia.

What I am saying is that "media" is far more accessible and there is far more of it than there was in `75.

40 years of "lies and mistruths"?
or
40 years of watching a trading block become far more?

Doubt we will ever agree on that!
 
I said "in its nappies", do try and read the detail, it`s early form existed in the 1960s amongst defence & academia.
"The Internet" is recognised as being born in 1983 with the advent of TCP/IP, although you could argue that what we think of as "The Internet" began with the introduction of the World Wide Web and HTTP. Before that, as you state, there were things such as ARPANET which were the first networks.

I've nothing to add to the wider discussion however, so as you were... ๐Ÿ˜
 
Nope...really not sure quite what point you're making about the internet "back then". It was irrelevant back then and just because it is all pervasive now, does not mean that those previously poor brainwashed souls who were told what to think from a very narrow choice of sources, are any better off today with the freedom of "information" at their fingertips today. Much easier to peddle a disingenuous message today than back then and much harder to be called out for it too!

From what Jim-bob said in 1975, it was clear and unequivocal that closer unity was the aim of the project. The argument won the day back then:

"But it's not only a question of growing prosperity, it's a question of peace and security. The Government believes very firmly that the security of Europe and the growing unity among its peoples, can be better helped if we are part of the Common Market Community"

Quite clear - closer unity of the people and closer alignment was always the aim with us at the heart of it.

He also goes on to say:

"The present belongs to us. We can make or marr our future as we will and of course there's no magic in the Common Market. It won;t solve our problems, we have to do that ourselves."

And yet...the EuroSceptic press made an absolute industry out of fabricating problems and ills and downright lunacy caused to the UK by those bullies in Brussels over the last 40 years. Much of it was of curse demonstrable horseshit. Much of it is and always was within our gift to solve as a sovereign state.

Jim C also went on to say:
"Finally and overwhelmingly in my opinion, whatever the future holds for our generation, it's in their (our children and grandchildren's generations) interests that there should be a growing unity in Europe. And that is why we ask you as a government to vote YES on Thursday".

Clear...how they hoped a Yes vote and the continued membership of the Common Market would pan out longer term and they didn't try to hide it either!

It was there, staring you in the face all along!

And you're right, we will probably never agree, because it was always plainly obvious the intention was closer unity....if you were concentrating on the detail that is...
 
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