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They knelt on his neck for 8 and a half minutes.

There is no valid argument that says, "if only he complied, he might have survived."

Police should understand what constitutes lethal force and the proper instances in which to use it. There is a difference between being uncooperative and being dangerous.

Once he's dead on the street he's been charge, tried and executed on the say-so of some officers, not through the justice system. And that can't be seen as okay.

You wouldn't think it was okay if it was, for example, your son who was deemed 'uncooperative' due to having a few too many beers on a night out. If he had a knee on his neck for 8 minutes and died from it, I doubt you would be saying "whelp, he should have done what he was told, it's his own fault."



He's not hailed as a hero, but as a symbol and example of things that shouldn't be glossed over.

Sorry you guys are bored by it. Hopefully at some point these folks will settle down and accept their place in the status quo for you.
Absolutely this. Great post.
 
They knelt on his neck for 8 and a half minutes.

There is no valid argument that says, "if only he complied, he might have survived."

Police should understand what constitutes lethal force and the proper instances in which to use it. There is a difference between being uncooperative and being dangerous.

Once he's dead on the street he's been charge, tried and executed on the say-so of some officers, not through the justice system. And that can't be seen as okay.

You wouldn't think it was okay if it was, for example, your son who was deemed 'uncooperative' due to having a few too many beers on a night out. If he had a knee on his neck for 8 minutes and died from it, I doubt you would be saying "whelp, he should have done what he was told, it's his own fault."



He's not hailed as a hero, but as a symbol and example of things that shouldn't be glossed over.

Sorry you guys are bored by it. Hopefully at some point these folks will settle down and accept their place in the status quo for you.

The other black people in his car all complied with police orders and they survived. So I'm not sure how the argument is invalid when I can point to those who did comply and those who did not comply with orders, and then compare the number of dead and living parties. The reason they survived is because they complied with a US police force which yes is overly combative. The police should be less combative in their approach but to say this was a racist attack doesn't stack up when you actually watch the video.

I think you are saying I think the police acted fairly, which is simply not the case.

The point I was making was that this has been marketed as a racist attack by left wing groups when in reality its a case of police misconduct.

It's not murder. Gross misconduct or manslaughter yes, but not murder.

Edit - seen your original response was two partner, to another poster.
 
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The other black people in his car all complied with police orders and they survived. So I'm not sure how the argument is invalid when I can point to those who did comply and those who did not comply with orders, and then compare the number of dead and living parties. The reason they survived is because they complied with a US police force which yes is overly combative. The police should be less combative in their approach but to say this was a racist attack doesn't stack up when you actually watch the video.

I think you are saying I think the police acted fairly, which is simply not the case.

The point I was making was that this has been marketed as a racist attack by left wing groups when in reality its a case of police misconduct.

It's not murder. Gross misconduct or manslaughter yes, but not murder.
The point is that an inordinate amount of black people in the US (let's stick with that for the moment) are discriminated against by their justice system. That ranges all the way from (however you want to describe it) police killings to a huge amount of people being imprisoned for what seem to the minor offences (to provide very cheap labour for commercial companies shockingly enough, I found out the other day).
The BLM movement is not about this case. This case is a particularly shocking example of what the movement IS about though and acted as a trigger.
 
The other black people in his car all complied with police orders and they survived. So I'm not sure how the argument is invalid when I can point to those who did comply and those who did not comply with orders, and then compare the number of dead and living parties. The reason they survived is because they complied with a US police force which yes is overly combative. The police should be less combative in their approach but to say this was a racist attack doesn't stack up when you actually watch the video.

I think you are saying I think the police acted fairly, which is simply not the case.

The point I was making was that this has been marketed as a racist attack by left wing groups when in reality its a case of police misconduct.

It's not murder. Gross misconduct or manslaughter yes, but not murder.

Edit - seen your original response was two partner, to another poster.

First point - you are technically correct. I was taking issue with the opinion that his death should be expected as a consequence of his disobedience.

Second point - difficult to discern racism, but surely there is an inherent prejudice when you consider how much more often this happens to black people. See the story about Danny Rose regarding how often he has to explain himself to police when going about his daily business.
 
The point is that an inordinate amount of black people in the US (let's stick with that for the moment) are discriminated against by their justice system. That ranges all the way from (however you want to describe it) police killings to a huge amount of people being imprisoned for what seem to the minor offences (to provide very cheap labour for commercial companies shockingly enough, I found out the other day).
The BLM movement is not about this case. This case is a particularly shocking example of what the movement IS about though and acted as a trigger.

"That ranges all the way from (however you want to describe it) police killings to a huge amount of people being imprisoned for what seem to the minor offences" - are the killings and prison sentences disproportionate to the demographic of the criminal population? Is the proportion of black people jailed for minor offences disproportionate to their population when compared to the jailing for minor offences of white people compared to their minor offences?

What is the rate of black on black, and black on white crime when compared to white on black crime?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here but when we are suggesting global systemic racism against black people the evidence needs to involve more than an account of Danny Rose's driving experiences.
 
"That ranges all the way from (however you want to describe it) police killings to a huge amount of people being imprisoned for what seem to the minor offences" - are the killings and prison sentences disproportionate to the demographic of the criminal population? Is the proportion of black people jailed for minor offences disproportionate to their population when compared to the jailing for minor offences of white people compared to their minor offences?

What is the rate of black on black, and black on white crime when compared to white on black crime?

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here but when we are suggesting global systemic racism against black people the evidence needs to involve more than an account of Danny Rose's driving experiences.

If there is a higher proportion of crime in the black community, why do you think that is?
 
First point - you are technically correct. I was taking issue with the opinion that his death should be expected as a consequence of his disobedience.

Second point - difficult to discern racism, but surely there is an inherent prejudice when you consider how much more often this happens to black people. See the story about Danny Rose regarding how often he has to explain himself to police when going about his daily business.

I appreciate that and I agree with your first point.

Your second point, when you say "surely there is an inherent prejudice" I disagree. The fact that this issue is so divisive proves that we cannot be sure. Everybody's experience is different. I've been stopped by the police for apparently no reason on the road previously and me and some friends have also had our names taken for hiding from my mate while he was having a P**s after a night out. If I was black I might have thought that was a racist event because I am told that the police have it in for me. As it was I just accepted it.

There needs to be an in depth, impartial inquiry into institutional racism in this country but the catch 22 is that even if it found no evidence of a serious systemic problem, and instead pointed to regrettable isolated events of police overstepping the mark on occasions, then it would still be considered to be part of "the problem"

Institutionalised racism is the ultimate conspiracy theory.
 
If there is a higher proportion of crime in the black community, why do you think that is?

Could it be that black people "as categorised by their generalised group" (which I would prefer not to do) tend to live in poorer or more deprived areas? And that those poorer or more deprived areas lead a higher than average number of residents within that population to resort to crime as a perceived way out?
 
Could it be that black people "as categorised by their generalised group" (which I would prefer not to do) tend to live in poorer or more deprived areas? And that those poorer or more deprived areas lead a higher than average number of residents within that population to resort to crime as a perceived way out?

So, there has to be a reason for this...

1) There's either a historical background which has put a large proportion of black people into poverty stricken circumstances, and a prejudice withint the population that is keeping them from achieving anything other than low incomes, and where criminal activity is done out of desperation or the one of the only options for some sort of 'success' to young kids. But institutionalised racism is 'the ultimate conspiracy theory', so it can't be that.

Or

2) You feel that there are inherent traits within that group of people which means that they will not strive for anything better, and naturally resort to criminal activity as a simpler means for making money. That there is a natural tendency for violence, and for ill will. That if they were naturally smarter and hard working, they would have been able to escape from those situations. Because nothing in society is holding them back from having the same life as you and me.
 
So, there has to be a reason for this...

1) There's either a historical background which has put a large proportion of black people into poverty stricken circumstances, and a prejudice withint the population that is keeping them from achieving anything other than low incomes, and where criminal activity is done out of desperation or the one of the only options for some sort of 'success' to young kids. But institutionalised racism is 'the ultimate conspiracy theory', so it can't be that.

Or

2) You feel that there are inherent traits within that group of people which means that they will not strive for anything better, and naturally resort to criminal activity as a simpler means for making money. That there is a natural tendency for violence, and for ill will. That if they were naturally smarter and hard working, they would have been able to escape from those situations. Because nothing in society is holding them back from having the same life as you and me.

Hahah that's ridiculous. Look at the East End of London at any time up to the late 1980s. Look at parts of the North East which have huge crime and drug problems. Walton and Kensington in Liverpool. Hulme, St Helens or Middlesbrough. These are all high crime predominantly white areas which all have increased levels of crime, convictions and police activity. It's not because these people are black or white that they experience greater police scrutiny but because they are poor.

And why are they poor. Some of it is historical, some of it is related to intoxicant and some of it is related to suppressed economies leading those people to commit crime as the only alternative. It's not because of their colour.

If I had to make an assumption I would say that a large number of BAME individuals in this country are first or second generation immigrants. I think this is backed up by statistics but I'm supposed to be working so I can't find them right now. They move to poor areas. It takes a few generations of wealth creation and family wealth legacy to pass on success. In the meantime these people have to get on as best they can in these high crime areas and lots of them will fall into the crime trap.

This is something which has been present since the collapse of serfdom. The haves and the have nots. Colour doesn't come into it. Trade out "black" with "1970s white working class" and you've got the same issue.

The fact that you posed option 2 as a serious theory says more about your prejudice towards dissenting voices than it does about anybody else.
 
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The fact that you posed option 2 as a serious theory says more about your prejudice towards dissenting voices than it does about anybody else.

That's certainly fair, it was meant to be provocative and I didn't think that was actually your specific viewpoint. But it is the train of thought from enough people out there that it is just a case of 'wanting it enough' to put in the effort.

Hahah that's ridiculous. Look at the East End of London at any time up to the late 1980s. Look at parts of the North East which have huge crime and drug problems. Walton and Kensington in Liverpool. Hulme, St Helens or Middlesbrough. These are all high crime predominantly white areas which all have increased levels of crime, convictions and police activity. It's not because these people are black or white that they experience greater police scrutiny but because they are poor.

That's also agreeable, and why I feel I should scale back from going down an alleyway that's going to put us at complete loggerheads and have me being stereotypically 'snowflakey'.

The difference in the areas you highlighted is that due to the relative lack of diversity, there is still a sense of community policing. Officers and criminals will know who they are dealing with, will know each others names, and out of that comes potentially a sense of respect (if not tolerance for any crimes committed).

You talk about your own experience, that you were pulled over or stopped without cause. Did you ever feel threatened? Were you able to have a civil conversation regarding their suspicions, and rationally and calmly explain your position? It doesn't seem from a lot of the filmed encounters that I'm seeing that the same treatment is being given, that there is inherent wariness on the part of the officers in dealing with certain sections of the population.
 
That's certainly fair, it was meant to be provocative and I didn't think that was actually your specific viewpoint. But it is the train of thought from enough people out there that it is just a case of 'wanting it enough' to put in the effort.



That's also agreeable, and why I feel I should scale back from going down an alleyway that's going to put us at complete loggerheads and have me being stereotypically 'snowflakey'.

The difference in the areas you highlighted is that due to the relative lack of diversity, there is still a sense of community policing. Officers and criminals will know who they are dealing with, will know each others names, and out of that comes potentially a sense of respect (if not tolerance for any crimes committed).

You talk about your own experience, that you were pulled over or stopped without cause. Did you ever feel threatened? Were you able to have a civil conversation regarding their suspicions, and rationally and calmly explain your position? It doesn't seem from a lot of the filmed encounters that I'm seeing that the same treatment is being given, that there is inherent wariness on the part of the officers in dealing with certain sections of the population.

It is very refreshing to have someone like you on this thread who is able to try to talk constructively to others. It obviously isn't the same with everyone on both sides but I think the thread as a whole reflects the wider national debate quite well when you provide an input.

I'll admit that I have never felt threatened in my dealings with the police. I have understood on each occasion that I have done nothing wrong and so have no reason to become concerned. I will accept that black people are not always able to do the same and it would be interesting to know whether that is because of what they grow up to believe from their friends, family and the media, or whether there is a genuine problem.

I would say it's also important to separate US and UK in this debate. The US does have significant racial issues. There are pockets of policing which are probably racist in isolated locations. I don't think the same problems exist here in the UK but obviously everybody sees these things differently.
 
One of the key issues with BLM has been the lack of recognition of black on black crime as an issue, and the various reasons behind it. Once you see how indiscriminate it is on a daily basis, it is truly disgusting to see how many people are affected by it.

It is easier to point at aggressive policing as a sole driver for anger at life, but seeing how crime of all types has surged since US Police have stepped back in the past 2 months, then perhaps the issue is more general US culture, than anything else. The treatment of Hasidic Jews by Cuomo's regime in NYC has been shocking.
 
Dawn Butler love in on the BBC this morning.
So a copper punched in the wrong registration number into the computer.
The car gets pulled over for a check.
For most people it is a case of "Here you go officer, here is my driving licence etc"....
Copper says "Sorry put the wrong number in the machine" and everyone goes home or where ever.

Ms Butler whips out her phone and starts gobbing off about "profiling" and doesn`t give the copper a second to get a word in.
Then appears on the news saying "Am I expected to carry my driving licence/passport because I`m black?"
Well if you are the driver you should be carrying your driving licence anyway, or you get a 7 day producer (waste of time & admin!).

Black female privilege anyone?
 
Dawn Butler love in on the BBC this morning.
So a copper punched in the wrong registration number into the computer.
The car gets pulled over for a check.
For most people it is a case of "Here you go officer, here is my driving licence etc"....
Copper says "Sorry put the wrong number in the machine" and everyone goes home or where ever.

Ms Butler whips out her phone and starts gobbing off about "profiling" and doesn`t give the copper a second to get a word in.
Then appears on the news saying "Am I expected to carry my driving licence/passport because I`m black?"
Well if you are the driver you should be carrying your driving licence anyway, or you get a 7 day producer (waste of time & admin!).

Black female privilege anyone?

Imagine just presuming someone is racist without any meaningful evidence, filming them and sharing their face to your many followers in the knowledge that this guy might lose his job and/or family and suffer untold harassment as a result of your mis-characterisation.

This is self entitlement at its peak.
 
I can't think of a single reason why they shouldn't be able to share their bodycam footage, that's what it is there for, to protect the public AND to protect our police force.
 
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