Away Match Day Thread 26/11/2024 - Championship: Sheffield United V OUFC

[Northstandboy]

Rate the OUFC players:

 

[MarkG]

Chris Wilder not happy about the match schedeuling, playing Saturday - Tuesday night - Friday night.
I think being a less popular side, we probably get picked more for the Sky+ 12:30 Saturday tv games than the "main event" games on Friday nights, Saturday 5pm, Sunday games

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united/pressure-back-on-leeds-united-after-sheffield-united-and-burnley-twists-as-chris-wilder-bemoans-ridiculous-efl-decision-4885129

 

[holdsteady]

Chris Wilder not happy about the match schedeuling, playing Saturday - Tuesday night - Friday night.
I think being a less popular side, we probably get picked more for the Sky+ 12:30 Saturday tv games than the "main event" games on Friday nights, Saturday 5pm, Sunday games

https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/sport/football/leeds-united/pressure-back-on-leeds-united-after-sheffield-united-and-burnley-twists-as-chris-wilder-bemoans-ridiculous-efl-decision-4885129

We have home games against Leeds, Sunderland and Sheffield United around the last month of the season so good chance we get a Friday night in the last batch of announced tv fixtures.

 

[Osei Yaw]

If you split the league into thirds, we have, so far:

Played 6 of the current top 8 and got 2 points. An average of 0.33 points per game.

Played 8 of the current middle 8 and got 8 points. An average of 1 point per game.

Played 4 of the current bottom 8 and got 7 points. An average of 1.75 points per game.

So on the face of that, the teams at the top have had too much for us. On the other hand, we've done well against those near the bottom and average/poor against those in the middle. I don't think any of this surprising.

I think 5 points from the next 3 would be decent. More than 5 will be good.

 

[Berliner]

This.

I think it turned at (or after) the Derby game.

Taking aside the Coventry and Burnley outliers, we averaged 51% possession in our first 11 games.

We've averaged just 37% in the last 6 games since then (with a high of 41% at Watford - in itself lower than the aforementioned 9 of our first 11 games).

It's the old adage of 'the opposition can't score if they haven't got the ball'. We need to keep it better, as we did earlier this season.
We are not going to be able to park the bus and soak it up. We're not strong enough defensively.

The good news is that Millwall are not a dominant side possession-wise. They've averaged 35% on their travels. We will get more ball on Saturday, and that's imperative to at least get a foothold again.

Think Josh McEachran has to come back in for that reason. And El Miz too (alongside Brannagan). Those most comfortable in possession...

It's not just about those who are comfortable in possession, your stats almost exactly correlate with when we no longer had any pace or outlet out wide. We can only hope that Placheta, Phillips and then latterly Dembele and the minor option of Edwards coming back will solve the skid.

 

[MiddleBartonYellow]

My point simplified. Turn up for games with the attitude “ you may beat us but you will have to work really hard for it “. Lack of quality unsurprisingly being shown up now and even worse a lack of belief from some of them. That’s the way I see it anyway.

 

[unification]

I am all for being optimistic and demanding the best from ourselves, but it can be counter productive to set unrealistic expectations and then feel downhearted at results like last night. My minimum expectation is that our players try their best.

A big fan of these sentences from your excellent post and something that some of those getting down on the team should consider.

A bit more context, from 2019 to 2024 in League 1 we won far more matches than we lost (with a blip through 2022-23, of course). In fact, our record in all comps during that timeframe was P273 W115 D68 L90. It's a win rate of 42.12%. We are not going to get anywhere close to that this season. I appreciate it is tricky to switch from a mindset and expectation that we should be winning more games than we lose.

Some fans need to get it into their heads that we are more likely to have a season like 2022-23 with the only difference being that we should expect to be near the relegation places this time around. Despite every player giving it their all, DB looking at every tactical trick he can pull and us preparing the best we can, 75-80% of this division will be 'better' than us - transfer spend, academy, revenues, stadiums, facilities etc. We have to play above the levels that our players are at just to get parity.

Ed Waldron said that the 2-0 win against Norwich was more intense for the players than the playoff final. More running, more pressing, more defensive blocks and concentration than a match at Wembley in front of 75,000 people. Maintaining that across a 46 game season is a physical impossibility so the falloff was always going to happen.

I sense most on here are realistic and aren't getting too bogged down in being near the foot of the table. Others just see the results and say that we're 'abysmal' and 'embarrassing'. It's natural to be disappointed when your team lose and especially when we didn't really land a glove on the opponent last night but was not 'abysmal' or 'embarrassing'. We're doing our level best against much better sides that we have to raise our levels for every match and not just for one-off cup games where we can and did catch teams unawares (West Ham in the League Cup, Newcastle away in the FA Cup).

Get out of the 'win games to get promotion' mindset and into one of 'scrap for every point' mindset.

 

[Wallop]

If you split the league into thirds, we have, so far:

Played 6 of the current top 8 and got 2 points. An average of 0.33 points per game.

Played 8 of the current middle 8 and got 8 points. An average of 1 point per game.

Played 4 of the current bottom 8 and got 7 points. An average of 1.75 points per game.

So on the face of that, the teams at the top have had too much for us. On the other hand, we've done well against those near the bottom and average/poor against those in the middle. I don't think any of this surprising.

I think 5 points from the next 3 would be decent. More than 5 will be good.

Very interesting - I’ve just looked at the results between the current top six and the bottom six so far this season.

The bottom six have achieved 18 points in 29 matches so an average of 0.62 points per match. There is a gulf in class and our season really rests on matches against the bottom eight teams, many of whom we haven’t played yet.

 

[Brahma]

Is certainly is a difficult challenge that Des has had to contend with, last night again, illustrated the awful situation we have found ourselves in, whilst key players have been injured.

The positives are Phillips, Placheta and Bran returning from long term injuries. It certainly says something when Matty Phillips is being talked about as the POTM. I agree, he was.

My disappointment at the moment, is the flogging of Tyler. In the final third, delightful. In transition or out of possession, his inexperience as a footballer is showing; made a huge error in the third minute, we weren't punished. Played a silly ball and poor decision to put Ciaron into all sorts of trouble in midfield, dispossessed and a huge void for them to run into, to score. He's a yellow card away from a suspension, he needs to be rested and allowed some time off, because his mind, understandably, is elsewhere. This is a regular theme in recent weeks, with him being the weak link at the moment. I'll put it down to him being flogged!

We have a run of games, where we should see a turn of form and collection of points, we need to get to January on the back of a good run, then we can reappraise and sort some of this squad out. They've been given their chance, Des needs to be ruthless if we're to not be dragged into it.

 

[Upthecowboys]

My point simplified. Turn up for games with the attitude “ you may beat us but you will have to work really hard for it “. Lack of quality unsurprisingly being shown up now and even worse a lack of belief from some of them. That’s the way I see it anyway.

I think I’m on the more ‘realistic’ side when it comes to overall expectations this season but I agree with this.

If we are coming up against superior teams we need to. Eat least hard to beat. String 5 across midfield, be physical etc just make it difficult.

Partly due to recent form of RR and Tyler, and partly due to wanting to retain the ball better / be more solid I’d have gone with McEachran, Cam Bran and Baulk

 

[dickwalton1964]

I think I’m on the more ‘realistic’ side when it comes to overall expectations this season but I agree with this.

If we are coming up against superior teams we need to. Eat least hard to beat. String 5 across midfield, be physical etc just make it difficult.

Partly due to recent form of RR and Tyler, and partly due to wanting to retain the ball better / be more solid I’d have gone with McEachran, Cam Bran and Baulk

You're right, it was a bit meek last night. No getting in their faces and making us horrible to play against. I wouldn't say we surrendered but our approach was a bit like that of a team expecting to lose. We have to put everything on the line, scrap and battle for everything but not sure I saw that last night.

 

[BicesterU]

Very interesting - I’ve just looked at the results between the current top six and the bottom six so far this season.

The bottom six have achieved 18 points in 29 matches so an average of 0.62 points per match. There is a gulf in class and our season really rests on matches against the bottom eight teams, many of whom we haven’t played yet.

Been saying this for a week or so. We're not yet at the stage where we need to get points out of games against Middlesborough and Sheffield United. And we need to avoid that being the case as the season progresses.

By the time we play Millwall on New Year's Day, we'll be more than half-way through the season - 24 games played out of 46, or about 52% of the season.

Those games are against:

18 Millwall (H)
19 Plymouth (A)
20 QPR (A)
21Sheffield Wednesday (H)
22 Leeds (A)
23 Cardiff (H)
24 Plymouth (H)

If we can pick up 10 points from those games, we'd be on 27 points from those 24 games. Assuming you need 50 points to be safe, that'd put us 54% of the way to our target after 52% of games played, so we'd actually be ahead of schedule...

 

[Eaststanding]

You're right, it was a bit meek last night. No getting in their faces and making us horrible to play against. I wouldn't say we surrendered but our approach was a bit like that of a team expecting to lose. We have to put everything on the line, scrap and battle for everything but not sure I saw that last night.

We were just ‘too nice’ last night. We barely got stuck in and seemed to accept them playing through us without much effort to anticipate their play or indeed stop it. It’s been said, if we expect we might lose against the top 6 then at least let them know they’ve been in a game.

 

[Belgium Yellow]

I'm reluctant to comment on our fans at games I didn't go to, but I was absolutely cringing at the telly during the ironic oles, 'we've lost the ball', and 'if Oxford score we're on the pitch' [no you aren't], which all came across clearly. It's all very tinpot and embarrassing. Even the Sky commentators said 'that's a bit harsh' during the oles. I was pleased a significant group seemed to try and drown the silliness out with supportive chants. It's a shame because overall our support was excellent.

I cant remember the exact words but along the lines of “we lost last week and we’ll lose again this, we dont care cos we are pissed”…
I think that explains it.

 

[Ewes]

A big fan of these sentences from your excellent post and something that some of those getting down on the team should consider.

A bit more context, from 2019 to 2024 in League 1 we won far more matches than we lost (with a blip through 2022-23, of course). In fact, our record in all comps during that timeframe was P273 W115 D68 L90. It's a win rate of 42.12%. We are not going to get anywhere close to that this season. I appreciate it is tricky to switch from a mindset and expectation that we should be winning more games than we lose.

Some fans need to get it into their heads that we are more likely to have a season like 2022-23 with the only difference being that we should expect to be near the relegation places this time around. Despite every player giving it their all, DB looking at every tactical trick he can pull and us preparing the best we can, 75-80% of this division will be 'better' than us - transfer spend, academy, revenues, stadiums, facilities etc. We have to play above the levels that our players are at just to get parity.

Ed Waldron said that the 2-0 win against Norwich was more intense for the players than the playoff final. More running, more pressing, more defensive blocks and concentration than a match at Wembley in front of 75,000 people. Maintaining that across a 46 game season is a physical impossibility so the falloff was always going to happen.

I sense most on here are realistic and aren't getting too bogged down in being near the foot of the table. Others just see the results and say that we're 'abysmal' and 'embarrassing'. It's natural to be disappointed when your team lose and especially when we didn't really land a glove on the opponent last night but was not 'abysmal' or 'embarrassing'. We're doing our level best against much better sides that we have to raise our levels for every match and not just for one-off cup games where we can and did catch teams unawares (West Ham in the League Cup, Newcastle away in the FA Cup).

Get out of the 'win games to get promotion' mindset and into one of 'scrap for every point' mindset.

A very pragmatic and realistic post, thanks.

Just wanted to offer a slightly different view on a couple of things, and I’m not playing Devil’s Advocate here:

You’ve rightly said “We have to play above the levels that our players are at just to get parity.” I agree. But this just isn’t happening: a combination of players not being good enough, a couple of key injuries, Des coming up against more experienced managers, training intensity and preparation for the games possibly not being at the same levels as how we were for the play-off semis and final plus the Norwich game, players losing form etc have, to me, shown that we’ve not been playing at a below-par level let alone above the levels needed. 1-0 or similar defeats usually suggest we competed but weren’t quite good enough. Multiple narrow defeats in a row or thumpings suggests the group need to work harder.

You’re also been sensible when you suggest “Maintaining that across a 46 game season is a physical impossibility so the falloff was always going to happen.” Every team in every division will hit some bad form or ‘meh form’. The strength of the coaching staff and established players is how they react and reverse that bad form. Robbo failed on that score a couple of seasons ago and was replaced (eventually). I don’t feel we can limp through to January in the hope that we can strengthen the team (on this, we’d have to get players out before any join as I don’t think we’ve got much wiggle room in the squad numbers. And it won’t be easy persuading a squad member to leave to a lower division unless we top up their wages, so FFP needs to be looked at. Plus attracting new players won’t be a doddle - who would join a struggling team in January unless they’re returning from injury, a free agent or promised a big wage?).

As you say, most of us are realistic now the early season form has dipped (plummeted). 21st place would do me now. But we could be in the bottom 4 this evening and I’m looking at those around and below us and thinking QPR have got money, they’ll come good soon, Pompey had a poor summer window so will splash the cash to survive, Rooney will get sacked soon and they’ll get the ‘new manager bounce’.

I don’t want to see Des moved on but I do think a change in or addition to the coaching team will bring fresh ideas and experience. I also want to see us recruit better: Currie was an excellent addition but too often we’re signing players struggling with injury, age or confidence (it’s been this way for several seasons now, even Murphy was a huge gamble given that we only got about 3 months out of him). We need to shed this ‘nice club mentality’ and be a bit more like Millwall or, dare I say it, Wycombe.

The Board have some important decisions to make over the next 2 months: do they pay off certain players and then invest in new ones, do they accept we’re punching above our weight and tinker round the edges and then prepare for next season hoping we’ll finish 21st?

 

[Joey]

Yeap, that's why we got battered by Burnley, West Brom, Luton and Norwich too.

Oh. Wait.

Does form and available players not come into it at all?

Burnley don't score many goals and their fans don't like Parker for how negatively he sets up. They started well because they scored a load of screamers which picked up points in tight games for them, their xg is actually very similar to ours. Despite this they had 14 shots to our 3, they could easily have won that.

West Brom battered us first half before seeming to want to play for a draw. This was off the back of them picking up 1 point from their 3 games before and they've only won 1 game since, the same as us. We caught them at a good time and at home.

Luton are struggling and are around us in the table, something clearly isn't right there and they haven't spent the same money as Sheffield United but that was a good performance, especially second half when we had Edwards to call on and change the game.

Norwich we caught cold on opening day with a fully fit team, party atmosphere and on the day their best player decided he didn't fancy playing for them. An excellent performance that Waldron said on The Dub was more physically intense than any game we played last season. We were always going to struggle to keep those levels up.

In all of those games we had some pace on at least one flank which has been missing until now. I've been banging this drum for ages, we simply don't have the players to play through teams at this level consistently without giving them something to worry about in behind. You mentioned the lack of possession which suddenly starts after the Derby game when Dembele got injured, and we didn't have any pacey wingers left meaning we could get boxed in with little threat of us getting in behind, unless you think this was just a coincidence. I don't think Placheta has much end product but even yesterday he gave them something to think about that we've been lacking.

Those were all decent performances and good points but there's a world of difference between playing those teams at the times we did and then going to Sheffield United who had won their last 6 home games without conceding and we've got Sam Long playing centre back, or playing Middlesborough who had just put 5 past Luton fresh off knocking QPR for 4. We also caught Sunderland when they were flying, how did we get on there? It's my recollection that we played a well backed team when they were in good form, couldn't compete and got absolutely nowhere near them.

When we have near enough a full squad to pick from then we can compete with the bottom half teams and if we catch some of the better teams at a good time then them as well but if we play them when they're on full form we're going to struggle. That's not defeatist, it's just realistic. Similar to when people were comparing results between Manning and Des' early reign when he had no support staff at all, suddenly everyone was injured and we stopped sticking the ball in the top corner every time we had a shot. Context matters.

 

[werthersoriginal]

Does form and available players not come into it at all?

Burnley don't score many goals and their fans don't like Parker for how negatively he sets up. They started well because they scored a load of screamers which picked up points in tight games for them, their xg is actually very similar to ours. Despite this they had 14 shots to our 3, they could easily have won that.

West Brom battered us first half before seeming to want to play for a draw. This was off the back of them picking up 1 point from their 3 games before and they've only won 1 game since, the same as us. We caught them at a good time and at home.

Luton are struggling and are around us in the table, something clearly isn't right there and they haven't spent the same money as Sheffield United but that was a good performance, especially second half when we had Edwards to call on and change the game.

Norwich we caught cold on opening day with a fully fit team, party atmosphere and on the day their best player decided he didn't fancy playing for them. An excellent performance that Waldron said on The Dub was more physically intense than any game we played last season. We were always going to struggle to keep those levels up.

In all of those games we had some pace on at least one flank which has been missing until now. I've been banging this drum for ages, we simply don't have the players to play through teams at this level consistently without giving them something to worry about in behind. You mentioned the lack of possession which suddenly starts after the Derby game when Dembele got injured, and we didn't have any pacey wingers left meaning we could get boxed in with little threat of us getting in behind, unless you think this was just a coincidence. I don't think Placheta has much end product but even yesterday he gave them something to think about that we've been lacking.

Those were all decent performances and good points but there's a world of difference between playing those teams at the times we did and then going to Sheffield United who had won their last 6 home games without conceding and we've got Sam Long playing centre back, or playing Middlesborough who had just put 5 past Luton fresh off knocking QPR for 4. We also caught Sunderland when they were flying, how did we get on there? It's my recollection that we played a well backed team when they were in good form, couldn't compete and got absolutely nowhere near them.

When we have near enough a full squad to pick from then we can compete with the bottom half teams and if we catch some of the better teams at a good time then them as well but if we play them when they're on full form we're going to struggle. That's not defeatist, it's just realistic. Similar to when people were comparing results between Manning and Des' early reign when he had no support staff at all, suddenly everyone was injured and we stopped sticking the ball in the top corner every time we had a shot. Context matters.

I think this is largely true but we do seem to have been feeble in the last couple of games, after being pretty spunky against Watford and only denied a point by missing a couple of decent chances. Our last two opponents have been great but I suspect we'd have lost to Cardiff and Plymouth too on those performances.

I thought Placheta was a bright spot last night, he kept his side of the pitch busy when he got the ball and he did put in a couple of decent crosses. A fast winger makes such a difference, plus Scarlett is fast too.

 

[bazzer9461]

A big fan of these sentences from your excellent post and something that some of those getting down on the team should consider.

A bit more context, from 2019 to 2024 in League 1 we won far more matches than we lost (with a blip through 2022-23, of course). In fact, our record in all comps during that timeframe was P273 W115 D68 L90. It's a win rate of 42.12%. We are not going to get anywhere close to that this season. I appreciate it is tricky to switch from a mindset and expectation that we should be winning more games than we lose.

Some fans need to get it into their heads that we are more likely to have a season like 2022-23 with the only difference being that we should expect to be near the relegation places this time around. Despite every player giving it their all, DB looking at every tactical trick he can pull and us preparing the best we can, 75-80% of this division will be 'better' than us - transfer spend, academy, revenues, stadiums, facilities etc. We have to play above the levels that our players are at just to get parity.

Ed Waldron said that the 2-0 win against Norwich was more intense for the players than the playoff final. More running, more pressing, more defensive blocks and concentration than a match at Wembley in front of 75,000 people. Maintaining that across a 46 game season is a physical impossibility so the falloff was always going to happen.

I sense most on here are realistic and aren't getting too bogged down in being near the foot of the table. Others just see the results and say that we're 'abysmal' and 'embarrassing'. It's natural to be disappointed when your team lose and especially when we didn't really land a glove on the opponent last night but was not 'abysmal' or 'embarrassing'. We're doing our level best against much better sides that we have to raise our levels for every match and not just for one-off cup games where we can and did catch teams unawares (West Ham in the League Cup, Newcastle away in the FA Cup).

Get out of the 'win games to get promotion' mindset and into one of 'scrap for every point' mindset.

I agree with everything in your post. Now most know I have a bit of moan about results and yes 2022/23 wasn’t the best season and it cost Robinson his job.

Manning came in a steady the ship so to speak and he bug gered off and did I moan yes.
But Des Buckingham came in and yes I moaned when we seemed to take a backward step and i along with others said to give Des the summer transfer window then along came Bolton away and that result was the final nail sorry Des, but what happened after that was superb and ended with promotion to the championship.

I was asked for my view and I said if we stay up great off we stay up by a goal difference then great. If we’re are relegated then that’s life this is a very tough division with the money that’s there.
Money if this was the old division 2/3 ( sorry youngsters look that up ) and we were promoted from Division 3 (L1) to division 2 ( the championship) then we would have coped a lot better as the money wasn’t there then as it is now.

Let’s enjoy the championship who knows we may stay up

 

[billyturleyscurlywurly]

There were signs at times last night in the first half that things have the potential to improve.

Personal changes and sticking to 433 will help us ahead of these ‘easier’ run of fixtures.

Long and Ter Avest are not good enough to start at this level in a back 4.

Kioso and Moore returning Saturday will be one hell of a boost.

El Miz & Phillips both need to start Saturday. Both look championship level in possession of the ball.

 

[Joey]

I think this is largely true but we do seem to have been feeble in the last couple of games, after being pretty spunky against Watford and only denied a point by missing a couple of decent chances. Our last two opponents have been great but I suspect we'd have lost to Cardiff and Plymouth too on those performances.

I thought Placheta was a bright spot last night, he kept his side of the pitch busy when he got the ball and he did put in a couple of decent crosses. A fast winger makes such a difference, plus Scarlett is fast too.

Definitely some of that and it's not a compete defence of the team and Des, there have been plenty of times in this run where I don't think he's been putting us in the best position to get results. We need to give ourselves the best chance of winning games but we also have to be honest and hold our hands up sometimes and admit when we're outmatched as we have been the last couple of games.

As you say there were signs of life yesterday before it got taken away from us and the first half an hour against Boro wasn't a disaster either but once good teams in good form get a foothold well struggle to contain them, especially when hampered with injuries. Like you I think Placheta causes problems that none of our other fit wingers do and it gives us another option even if he doesn't create a lot directly, just having that pace gives us something we've been missing for months.

 

[Tobytrotters]

A number of people saying about Brown losing form and not playing well last few games, which is largely since he’s been switched to the centre with Nelson out. Maybe, just maybe he’s a left back after all!

No he’s not! Just playing well above his level of ability.